are we discussing activated or commanded :confused:.

The pilot does the commanding but the reverse only activates once all the aircraft systems are satisfied.

To my knowledge all the contributing factors in this regard are not yet known to us.

Vested.... The pilot has to manually put engines in rev.... N m not makin observations ... M confirming No rev selected....

380 .... Auto land available in land 3 or land 2 verified at 500ft(fail passive system).... Flare capture at 40ft, idle at 25 ft n rollout in gnd mode...all 3 annunciations wont be available with no autoland eicas msg

Fd system has 3 sec memory of last track to take care of scalloping..... If loc signal was to the left for more than 3 secs.... Yep ... Fd will take last signal reference ..... Hence veering left.... To correct might hav used tiller ... N tiller to be used only below 30 knots... High speed tiller used might hav created the violent swing to the right..... Speculation only .....

" a few days after the incident in which former CEO ... Dr. CHEONG said verbatim" this is our airplane, these are our pilots and we take full responsibility"

Yep, a few days is a long time following an accident.

SQ were forced to make this admission after totally botching the PR immediately following the accident.

An AF346 747 captain wrongly used the tiller (Aug 8th 2008 at CYUL) and caused the plane's nose to go off the runway.

Can you elaborate on that? I have never heard of it; and doubt that such a senior pilot ( to be a B747 skipper I guess one should be fairly senior within the ranks ) would use the tiller at high speed. And AF is a good reputable airline from the first world, is it not?

Off topic,

but I'm not sure latest AF incidents/accidents can proof that...

May not be relevant but the Munich Atis today included a warning that the runway might be slippery due to de-icing fluid. In Munich the de-icing is carried out immediately before the runway. A russian A310 coincidentally slipped of the runway close to this point some time ago on take off with asymetric spooling up of the engines. It has never seemed paricularly slippery to me, but then you might only notice it when it is too late and were not expecting it....food for thought.

Leder..... Certainly relevant info....and pertinent ... However don't think de icing was required on said day of incident.....

and if it's slippery it slips along the approach axis. Slippering makes corrections (left, right, deceleration) more difficult. Not making it going left and right!

I was not flying that day so I cannot say if anyone availed themselves. However LH by far the biggest users of the airport are enthusiastic de-icers even when it appears relatively warm.

I am not quite sure about your point Dani. If the aircraft was for some reason already heading off to one side a slippery runway would definitely make things more difficult.

The high speed excursion in Denver was another example of a captain misusing the tiller at high speed by the way Totempole.

The de-icer fluid is probably not relevant. But the Atis message did make me think.

Indeed....... especially when one of the Lufties starts with that nonsense. All other will follow.

Stabilized Video of Landing

.

hard to tell for certain but it looks like the spoilers were not extended.

In the video we can see a direct hit to the engine by dirt thrown up by the digging in of the nose gear. :sad:

Also, later, as the MLG goes back onto the runway, we can see gray smoke probably from the MLG as it "slides" sideways. (see photo also)

I'm impressed with the MLG and the tires :D

Not necessarily.

If the engines were damaged it could be from dirt thrown up with the reversers deployed.

The nose gear wake is designed to keep puddled water out of the engines and methinks that also applies to dirt

Lomapaseo - a few points.

The reversers where never deployed.

I agree with you about the nose wheel wake being kept out of the engines - BUT - that is under normal operations. When one is on the gravel doing a 12 wheel drift in the 777, the chances of debris being ingested by the engines, caused by the nosewheel is very much higher!

When the nose gear fell fast and dug into the grass, the nose gear was right of the right-MLG's longitudinal axis, thus the plane's nose whipped to the right and eventually back onto the runway with the rear of the plane whipping around the nose; thus the very curved marks in the grass.

From the MLG tire marks as it went back onto the runway I estimate that the plane's tires were moving/sliding 25 degrees off the plane's longitudinal axis !

I'd love to hear what the passengers had to say about the ride.

The Aviation Herald synopsis of the German report makes interesting reading.

Found here.

I don't understand. If the aircraft, for whatever reason, isn't where I want it in 30 ft AGL..... TOGA!

No matter windshear, ****** up automatics, gusts, whatever...

The original status report (in German) you find here on page 24 - 37.

They basically say that an Avro aircraft went airborne before that landing, but had not yet overflown the localizer antenna by the time the B777 touched down.
The seconds the Avro approached the antenna are the moment the B777 veered of track and eventually left the runway.
A go around was attempted, but "TOGA had no effect" (already on ground), the autopilot (roll out) was disconnected about the time the plane hit the grass.

My airline still requires us to carry out practice autolands. Yes I know a lot of other companies have stopped this including Denti's mob. But I can report from years of trying it in Munich, that it is a hopeless place to practice as the autopilot more often than not trips out on the 737 when the runway is unprotected.

Combine this with very professional but at times sporty sequencing from the tower and I am not at all surprised by the interference with the signal. Interestingly the report says that the 777's autopilot remained engaged, but steered off to the left. Another question is why the go-around did not happen as the captain says he intended. It is in any case a cautionary tale about autolanding without protection.

From the report:
"Als sich aber abzeichnete, dass das Wetter in München unter den festgelegten Bedingungen lag, bei denen der Copilot die Landung durchführen durfte, übernahm der Kapitän die Aufgabe des Pilot Flying und der Copilot agierte als Pilot Monitoring (PM)"

"But when it became clear that weather in Munich was below the conditions, where the co-pilot was allowed to perform the landing, the captain took over the job of the pilot flying and the co-pilot was acting as pilot monitoring (PM)"

The FO had almost 3700 hours on type
EDDM 031120Z 07010KT 2200 BR OVC003 05/05 Q1010 BECMG 3000 OVC005
EDDM 031050Z 10008KT 2000 BR FEW002 OVC003 04/04 Q1011 BECMG 3000 OVC005
And THIS is the best CAT I weather you can get. Do I have to understand this policy? It's not about flying anymore. It's about sitting around, drinking coffee and enjoying the nice sunset... :}

Easy to answer - "Automatic go-around cannot be initiated after touchdown"

That's a quote direct from the 777 Flying manual.

and
Possibly something missing here in the translation. FOs may land the aircraft in Cat I conditions. The Ops Manual used to say, (and probably still does), that in visibility of 2000m or less an autoland is recommended.
If company policy on the B777 doesn't allow FOs to carry out practice autolands in Cat I conditions then maybe the captain was using this one to maintain his currency. All a bit irrelevant now!

I am sure they were conforming to the rules but the event was initially down to carrying out an autoland without the protection of LVPs.

I would imagine it all happened very quickly judging by the fact an immediate go-around wasn't flown either automatically or manually after touchdown.

There are several learning points from the incident.

It is easy to criticise but the speed with which events occur can easily catch out all but the most prepared and vigilant, especially after a long and tiring flight.

I recall during my command training when on an approach into LHR my training captain drew my attention to the fact that we had a very light tail wind from around the half past four position and explained that from experience he had once found that a similar wind had blown the preceding aircraft's wake vortex over the threshold resulting in a violent roll just before the flare! I never forgot that and have once experienced the same since.

My point being that despite briefing and mentally preparing myself the onset and speed of the roll was dramatic and I was lucky not to have an embarrassing incident.

Copilot stomping on the rudder . . .
 

The BFU bulletin also mentions that during the initial runway excursion, the captain had applied 23lbs pressure on right rudder pedal and the copilot had simultaneously applied 41 lbs pressure on the right rudder pedal.

This may have contributed to an initial control overcompensation, enhanced at high speed [with no reverse, no spoilers]. :ooh:

'"Easy to answer - "Automatic go-around cannot be initiated after touchdown"'

It's actually a little more interesting than that. Go-around can't be done through the AFDS from just before touchdown until the airplane is once again airborne. The interesting part is getting airborne again: how is your average johnny going to do that precisely?

If this crew had been flying an Airbus it would have been a non-event. :eek:

Sorry I could not resist seeing all the Airbus bashing there is on PPrune.:}

Parabellum

Unfortunately the term "recommended" is not used. It says an autoland "should" be accomplished in this "severe" weather.
A completely stupid SOP that created this incident. Let's hope they get rid of it now.

Thanks Patty747. The word 'should' implies a bit more pressure than 'recommended'! I agree an unecessary SOP, 2000meters is not 'severe' weather!

The german report suggests there was no clear call for a go-around just the captain calling for flaps 20 and what sounded like the toga switches clicking and the speed brake handle being lowered. Both pilots seem to have been fully focussed on trying to kick the aircraft straight and from then on they seem to have been along for the ride. It is interesting to note in how short a distance the aircraft then came to a stop.

I remember a very early morning approach into Munich a couple of years ago when the weather was just within CAT 1 limits. I briefed for an autoland with the proviso that I would land manually if conditions allowed. Sure enough the fog rolled in. I had already informed the tower of our intentions and we completed a successful auto land. The A330 behind went around and was on stand next to us twenty minutes or so later.

Dropp the Pilot----Sorry I haven't read all the thread but.......

Go Arounds shouldn't be attempted once Reverse is selected. ( all Airline crew know this )

However, If the A/C is on the ground before reverse is selected then an "Rejected landing" may be conducted safely.

1/ Apply thrust ( t/o Config warning will sound )
2/ At VRef/VApp AND thrust set Rotate
3/ Once airborne Push Toga ( Boeing )
4/ Then continue with a "normal" go around proceedures and calls.

Both for Boeing and Airbus.

Easy peezy

Most Airlines now train this very manoeuvre, at least mine does. :ok:

I fear that the PF tried to initiate the GA by simply pressing the TOGA switches and doing nothing else. As nitpicker comments certain things have to happen.
1. Power must come up. If it doesn't then you push those sticks up (Boeing) towards the panel.
2. The nose must rotate up - be it 5, 7, 10 degrees its got to go up. If it doesn't then make it do so, by taking out the autopilot.

But then all this would be moot if, at the onset of center line deviation the autopilot was disconnect and manual control was taken.

with more and more information being handed over to the interested public, I see my initial suspicion confirmed: SIA, like many airlines from the warm weather league, does not really have a practical concept on LVP and autoland.

- LVP is when it is in force. It's the airport that decides, not the captain.

- LVP required (mostly) autoland.

- Autoland has nothing to do with visibility. It's an automatic landing. You can do it in any weather.

- Practise autoland should be done in good weather conditions. That's how you keep up your currency.

- Autoland should only be done when LVP is in force, when protected zones are granted OR when it's good weather (so you can see that something goes wrong, i.e. you have an aircraft in your protected zone).

I see here a complete mess-up of procedures, rules and principles. All in all I'm not surprised this has happened.

Dani:- Autoland has nothing to do with Visibility? Not sure what you mean by that statement? Yes the Aircraft can't see but the Commander sure has to see something in basically all LVP proceedures. ( excluding Cat 3B with no decision ht ) So Visibility does matter........not to mention there is also a crosswind limit for the Airbus Autoland which is considerably lower than the normal crosswind limit.

Practice Autoland does not have to be done in VMC, currency is kept every 6 months in the SIMULATOR during your Sim cycles as per your Countries regulatory agency.

There is nothing to stop Autolands in marginal weather or if the crew feel tired ( for eg ) Just be aware the protected areas are not protected!! Indeed some Airlines recommend Autoland be used even in conditions which technically don't require it.

That is Dani's point. If LVPs are not in place, watch out.

Yes I see that but it's the "Autoland has nothing to do with visibility......you can do it in any Weather" comment that I'm not sure about!! There are further limits with crosswind that certainly do effect Autoland capability.

I believe after all wheels on ground,(thrust reversers not deployed), a touch/go maneuver is necessary and not a balked landing which for BOEING is:

1)
Thrust levers mid position,retract speed brakes,retract flaps to 15 while trimming nose around 5 units(737ng).
2)thrust stabilized,apply GA thrust and rotate using white bug.

While a balked landing in the flare area(<50ft) would require to maintain landing pitch while applying GA thrust,when VREF,retract flaps 15 and increase gently pitch to maintain your white bug,about 15 deg.

Autoland practice without prior ATC approval is plain stupid for the reasons mentionned by Dani.

Sorry the term is "Rejected Landing" I've edited my previous.:ok:

Its an approved and trained Boeing/Airbus proceedure.

Changing the Flaps and Trim is only done during a "planned" Touch and Go with appropriate Training/Check Captains along.

This "Rejected Landing" technique is kept relatively simple so that the un- prepared crew can complete it safely without needing to reset Flaps/Trim.
KISS method!!

And more importantly you need a lot less Runway and time to get airborne again. ( not waiting for flaps and trim to run )