411A
Surely if the co-pilot is taxying the a/c it should be easier for the Captain to make sure they are in the right place?

That is an answer to a different question. I still await a reply to mine...

In BA, as with many other 777 operators, everything is "standardized", Boeing merely use the terms PF or PNF once the aircraft is ready to Taxi. In BA, just like KLM, AF (I'm led to believe), plus EK...if the First Officer is PF, then they taxi the jet...and do all the other duties associates with being PF..

However you cut this, not being even remotely curious about the acres of runway disappearing majestically into the setting sun out of the left side cockpit windows when lining up; while not answering the FO's query about the apparently really short runway out of the right side windows seems odd by any measure of experience or CRM.

I am actually quite surprised that the AAIB let their comment that “they attributed the 26 September incident to simple lack of familiarity with the airport, combined with disorientation from poor signage”, there.

I may be out of date here (and I’m sure a current BA crew member will correct me if needed) but the BA training/simulation policy with regards visuals has always been (IMHO) slightly archaic in so much that their sims are certified with the necessary 3 Level D certified visual airfields but they then mostly use generic scenes within their training programs.

The latest visual systems are very capable of reproducing airport scenes highly detailed utilising hi resolution satellite mapping data and with 100% accurate runway, taxiways and airport environment areas with again 100% accurate signage and markings so that no crew should ever be put into the situation this crew were. The simulator is surely the ideal environment to gain that initial airfield familiarity and to experience (in this case) their poor signage.

A specific St Kitts visual scene may well have provided this crew with the necessary training and experience to avoid this incident.

It would have been interesting to see the comments if this had been RyanAir...........

'A co-pilot is a co-pilot period.'

I'd hardly describe comments like that as being condusive to good CRM. Not exactly empowering the F/O to question your errors of judgement is it? What with him being but a mere 'co-pilot' and all. :rolleyes:

for just a moment, let's not blame BA or the crew (though certainly they screwed up).

Let's fix these problems with a bucket of paint and some imagination.

when you take a runway, you should be able to read on the pavement from all types: IF YOU CAN READ THIS You are LINED UP WITH runway 27 Right with 9000' for takeoff from this point.

at an intersection: You are at intersection X on runway 27 right and you have 4000' remaining for takeoff.

additional color lines painted on the taxiways would take you to ONE PLACE ONLY when instructed to FOLLOW THE PURPLE LINE WESTBOUND to runway 9...or similiar.


And of course, until such times as someone springs for the cost of a bucket of paint, ICAO approval, and labor, LOOK FOR THOSE NUMBERS, OR threshold marks before taking the runway.

Did this field have signs on the side saying runway remaining? Some airports do...many dont.

As BOAC wrote in post #7

Chapter 1.18.2.2 in the report is an eye opener.
From the Supervising Controller at the time:

...and what would a person, supervising a trainee, in possession of this knowledge - and watching Dastardly and Muttley meandering around the airport - do?:ugh:

One go each, now.

ZFT,

making sim visuals as realistic as possible can only be a good thing, but you cant train in the sim for every view you'll ever see out of the cockpit window - your post almost implies that you shouldn’t go anywhere new without doing it in the sim first. A runway is a runway to some extent and if you look out and think 'hmmmmm', it warrants some consideration. that said, i haven’t read the report and make no judgement on the crew in question here. looking at the plate for the airport and the position of intersection B, it looks very short, even at light weight and i'm glad they were all ok.

It should be remembered that it was the First Officer whom was taxiing the airplane, in this particular incident.
It is my firm belief that 'role reversal' is just fine whilst flying, however, taxiing around on the airfield, be it large (and complicated, with many possible taxi errors) or small (same problem...as is quite evident here) should be done by the Captain.
This is not the first time BA has had this problem, nor will it be the last.
Long time readers here might recall Rainboe's slight taxi problem at IAD when he was a First Officer in a BA 747...dinged wing tip and all.

And, 411a, no Captain has ever 'dinged' an aeroplane?

Who has hold of the tiller is immaterial. Good teamwork will ensure the aircraft goes where it is meant to.

BA prefer it this way, when a First Officer makes his conversion to Captain, he doesn't have to start from zero experience of handling the aircraft on the ground!

Guess what, BA F/Os are even allowed to park the aircraft given suitable stand guidance! What about that, 411a? :eek:

411A

perhaps it is best to always have the captains hand on the throttles during takeoff and for him to taxi. you certainly have a valid point of view.

however statements like...

... as well as the tone of your posts mean that you come over as, ahem, overbearing, (whether thats the case in the real world or not). and you sound a little bit angry.

I don't see any mention of possible implication of the control tower here.

ATC are required to have knowledge of aircraft performance. (And a reasonable degree of common sense). Consequently something like the following R/T exchange might have occurred:

“Speedbird “777” do you think a mid-point departure is wise sir”

Answer “probably not”

Entering an active runway can be a risky business at anytime. If each crew member had checked and confirmed the approach and the other end of the runway was clear, how is it they missed the amount of concrete between the aircraft and the threshold/threshold lights, of the active runway?

Is there anything more useless than the runway behind, etc.,etc.?

bet they wont make that mistake again!

What? If your FO's do not taxi that would mean entrusting them to read a taxi chart? Do FO's even read these days? Are you crazy? Surely it would be better to get rid of the FO's altogether, that way you can go heads in and read the taxi chart whilst navigating your big aeroplane around those complicated airfields. No possible room for error there, FO's only get in the way!

Most FO's are perfectly capable of taxying and even parking an aeroplane - even big ones like the 340-600......... gosh!

Methinks you are too sensitive on perceived pilot status. The current terminology that reduces the crew to PF and PM would suggest that both pilots are clones of each other - robots taking turns to fly each leg. The position of captain of an airliner has long since been reduced to a chap who just happens to occupy the left seat. It is almost to the point now where the copilot/first officer runs the whole shebang as if he is THE captain for that sector while the real captain is relegated by company policy to a subordinate role playing.

Whether you scorn it or not, in the early days of airliners the captain was truly running the show and at his discretion may offer or direct the first officer to conduct the take off. There was no question of "My" sector. The captain made all the in-flight decisions, weather diversions en route etc. Depending on many factors he may offer/direct his first officer to conduct the approach and landing out of the goodness of his heart.

Over the years there has been a steady dumbing down of the true role of the aircraft captain to the extent where he no longer directs the operation but is forced into a compromised situation of having to share the responsibility. This diluting of the captains role to his "mate" in the right hand seat leads to a more or less consensus before any decision is made. Except the flight deck should not be a democracy.

Forgive the ramble on, but countless hours reading about the wonders of CRM and its ilk has sometimes led to this wonderful concept of "empowering" the first officer so much that some see this as full authority to challenge the captain's every decision regardless if the questioning is a valid flight safety matter or not. This is not conducive to the principles of flight safety.

411 the only time you sprout forth with utter tripe is when you put finger to keyboard you skygod.
No doubt you look forward to the day that O' Leary gets his way and we fly jetliners single crew.

Centaurus, you are pulling our collective string, right? :ooh: