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Jetblue Airbus blows tires/ EVAC at Sacramento
15 Hurt In Rough Landing At Sacto Airport - cbs5.com
15 Hurt In Rough Landing At Sacto Airport SACRAMENTO (CBS) ― Click to enlarge 1 of 1 The flight sits on the Sacramento runway minutes after evacuation. CBS Fifteen people have been injured after a JetBlue Airbus made a hard landing and blew four tires before catching fire. The flight had to be evacuated at Sacramento International Airport Thursday afternoon. The Airbus A320 touched down just before 1:00 p.m. A fire broke out and the crew deployed the emergency slides to evacuate the plane. A passenger who was on the plane told CBS that he heard a bang and the plane stopped quickly after landing. "We were then told to start evacuating very abruptly, you know 'Get out! Get out! Get out!," said the witness, identified only as Elvis. "(After I was off) I looked back under the plane and it was on fire and all four tires were out." The fire was quickly extinguished. Emergency crews set-up a triage area to treat injured passengers. Fifteen people were reported injured. The flight, which came in from Long Beach, had 86 passengers and 5 crew members on board. (© MMX, CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved.) |
Probably another BSCU problem.
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Video here: 15 hurt after hard landing of JetBlue flight from Long Beach | L.A. NOW | Los Angeles Times
Wall St. Journal reporting injuries as "minor." |
I thought the airbus was so smart it wouldn't let the pilots do anything wrong wrong wrong. (sarcastic)
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There is a wildly improbable scenario where the brake sensor wires could have been reversed.......strictly a guess.....
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there was a series of problems on the DC10 in the middle 70's in which the anti skid lines were reversed.
--- also: I've said this before on PPRune, but blindly evacuating is dangerous. I would not have evacuated for a brake fire/tire fire...should have stayed on, fought the fire from the fine fire department at Sacramento airport and waited for some portable stairs or other , safer off loading device.. |
Nothing wrong with erring on the cautious side.....
And if they had stayed on and there was a catastrophic fire resulting from leaking fuel or hydraulics (onto the burning brakes) as a result of the heavy landing and a few passengers perished, the crew would be criticised for not evacuating the passengers.........right?
It's a given that one or two passengers may be injured going down a slide while evacuating but coming from the view that even small fires can become catastrophic in a very short time, I see nothing wrong with erring on the cautious side. We were not there and we are not yet privy to the communication exchange between ATC, the crew and the First responders that led to their decision........ Good call to evacuate. The crew now has all the time in the world to debate over whether or not they should or shouldn't have evacuated and cost the company $ (insert your dollar amount here) per blown slide. I am sure that is way better that living with the idea that you were responsible for the deaths of passengers. |
jasavir
but it wasn't one or two injured...it was 15, with five to the hospital. it wasn't a good call to evacuate...and there wasn't any leaking fuel or hydraulic fluid. now, there have been times where an evacuation wasn't done and people died (airtours/british)...but that was after a catostrophic uncontained engine failure and a rejected takeoff. I stand by what I said: blindly evacuating can be very dangerous. |
If there's smoke coming out of the gear up to where the pax can see it, you ain't going to be able to stop them from evacuating anyway.
I remember when Valujet blew an engine on takeoff and had a fire come into the aft fuselage on a DC-9 in KATL. They aborted and evacuated. They found all the overwing exit doors about a hundred yards behind the aircraft - pax just opened them up on their own.... |
Nope....
I disagree... Small fire, from advise from tower, (the only way he could have known there was any fire at all), You know the trucks are on their way.... Keep them on board, away from injury from the fast approaching trucks and subsequent flying foam etc, not to mention the 'certainty' of a small (not so small in this case!), percentage of the pax getting injured in the evac. In the unlikely case that the progress of dealing with the fire does not go as expected, again as advised by the tower, then you can evac from the doors least effected from the fire or ground activities. Portable stairs are much less liable to cause injury! |
protectthehornet,
I agree with you that blindly evacuating is never a good idea. The point I'm trying to make is that since we were not there and and we weren't privy to the communication exchange between ATC, the crew and the First responders that led to their decision, it is unfair to say that they "blindly evacuated the aircraft". In addition, I am saying that if you are in doubt about a situation and the possible consequencies of one response versus the other is far more grave, then it is better to err on the cautious side. The report does not state the reason for the injuries but it did state that passengers said it was a hard landing so we can't attribute the injuries (or at least all of them) to the evacuation process alone. The 10 minor injuries could be simple scratches, scrapes and bruises. The 5 serious ones could be attributed to the hard landing, the evacuation itself, or to someone looking to make a quick buck....All you have to do is hold your neck, grimace in pain and you are off to the hospital with an injury lawyer in tow...... :ok: BTW, I have learnt a long time ago that what we read in the press and the facts as they actually occurred are quite often not the same. |
Remember this one? Firemen were not super fast to arrive.
YouTube - INCENDIO FIRE BOEING 737 CHINA AIRLINES NAHA OKINAWA JAPAN 2/2 |
It's much easier to be deliberative about deciding to evacuate when you have two cockpit exits and the front exit doors directly behind you.
In the back with your wife and kids ten rows away from the nearest exit with sixty odd panicked sheep focussed on retrieving their considerable cabin baggage blocking the way, the atmosphere is heavily biased against calm deliberation. There was a 737 that blew an engine and aborted takeoff in CYYC many years ago. The pax popped the slides while the crew were discussing with the tower -- and got out in the nick of time. |
first off, my friend, an airbus guy, says that maybe the crew was fooling around with the parking brake switch in flight.
many of you are quoting incidents with engine failures etc... this was a brake fire after a hard landing. it isn't a chinese fire drill. sacramento, the state capitol of the largest of the US states *population, and is a capable modern airport. and the article I read says that the injuries all came from using the slide. wait for the stairs, unless the danger is of a much higher magnitude. And back in the old days, we carried our stairs with us on the B737, B727, and the DC9...heck the DC9 had two stairways, forwar4d and ventral...maybe the 727 too. |
protectthehornet
You state:
now, there have been times where an evacuation wasn't done and people died (airtours/british)...but that was after a catostrophic uncontained engine failure and a rejected takeoff. ASN Aircraft accident Boeing 737-236 G-BGJL Manchester International Airport (MAN) I quote from that text: At 25 seconds past the 'thud' (and 20 seconds before the aircraft stopped) the crew decided to evacuate via the starboard side. The 737 was decelerating through 36 knots then and the captain warned the cabin crew about the evacuation six seconds later. Regards Exeng |
Since you weren't there "hornet", your speculation, and "what I would have done" comments are a bit silly don't you think?? :=
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Very unfair to comment on whether the right or wrong decision to evacuate. For a start there is usually no right or wrong, it was just a valid decision, on information available to whoever ordered the evac (if anyone).
Injuries: I would expect 1 or 2 serious injuries from an Evac - that is my "expectation", and by serious, I am probably tending towards broken limbs etc. We'll see later (after the pPrune instant enquiry dies down) how many of the 15 only have a small sprain / abrasion / just enough for a lawyer := So really just echoing Jasavir :ok: NMoD |
Maybe the two in the pointy end gave MAX Autobrake ago!!!??? :E:E:E
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ironbutt57. my comment isn't silly at all. it is a warning to fellow pilots to be careful ordering an evacuation. For over a dozen years my airline has been teaching us to be careful about such things and also to avoid uncommanded evacuations initiated by passengers.
the facts as reported in published reports are: the passengers DIDN'T know there was an emergency/fire until told by the crew. 15 people were injured, 5 seriously enough to be taken to the hospital. And while you might be ready at a moment's notice to jump down a slide, there are elderly people out there who might break a hip doing so and have their lives harmed in the long term. (exeng...sorry for my mistake. one article I read on the subject indicated that the crew told the passengers to remain seated...and that they did so. the air tours accident also taught us all how important it is to consider the wind in such situations.) isn't it a bit odd, most every airline I've heard of shows a nice little film about brake fires/tire fires etc. Done perhaps by boeing during testing. No one ever panicked and hit the slides. No Ironbutt...not for one moment is the: I wasn't there factor playing into my posts. Are you a pilot? An airline pilot? haven't you been briefed/taught about such things? just under 20 percent of the people on board were injured. the plane is still intact. using my judgement would have had NO ONE injured and the plane intact. |
Pretty sad
when a bunch of airline pilots cant agree on something as simple as when to evacuate.
Fire = evacuate Flashover takes about 90 seconds and everyone is dead with their hands in the overhead lockers trying to retrieve their 'gold fish'. |
UncleJay
I'd fly with you anytime. bear, hates fire, has a call in to an eyewitness, a professional. |
protectthehornet,
Most of the times I tend to agree with your comments but I cannot believe you actually believe on this one: first off, my friend, an airbus guy, says that maybe the crew was fooling around with the parking brake switch in flight. If this was the case, those pilots could be facing serious consequences... and without a prelim report, I really prefer to believe that something else must have happened before launching some sort of anathema against our colleagues of profession. |
Through the eyes of a veteran of 38 years (NOT Jetblue).
Traffic was two Brasilias, an RJ and a 757. 16R was closed and may still be. If PTH wanted to wait for airstairs, he'd still be waiting. I won't be specific out of respect for the crew, but there was substantial damage to the a/c. BTW, had PTH been there to greet the Captain, as he exited and questioned the propriety of his command he would have risked a PITN. When I started my conversation with said airline professional (as yet not permitted to get too specific), I explained PTH's POV. "Excuse Me? You're joking?" sorry Hornet, reconsider. |
isn't it a bit odd, most every airline I've heard of shows a nice little film about brake fires/tire fires etc. Done perhaps by boeing during testing. No one ever panicked and hit the slides YouTube - Airbus A340-600 Rejected Take-Off test (subtitles) Fire = evacuate |
Bearfoil...if you truly have spoken with the captain of the plane in question, I hope you asked HIM if HE ordered the evacuation, or if it just started in the back.
PITN I take is punch in the nose. Well, from what I have seen the plane is intact, the tires are flat. the plane looks fine with no other fire damage. I stand by what I said before. Now, if he had special information, not available to us who just watch tv or read the papers, fine. AS to aquadalte's comment. I was just offering what my airbus pilot friend said...I don't claim to know the 'bus. I took a substantial pay cut to avoid flying the bus and I'm still glad I did. One has to wonder about the whole evacuation...if it started with the captain, that's one thing...but if it started in back...you gotta wonder if the engines had been shut down by the time the first pax were tumbling down the slide. bearfoil, if you would like to PM me with more info that you can't tell us here, fine. If not, I see a plane that is upright, not consumed by fire, fully intact except for flat tires ( plural). I'd like to think SMF has portable emergency stairs...but if they don't, let us know. Later a baggage loader was placed to access the plane. jet blue, is famous for not having portable stairs anywhere...remember the valantine's day debacle of a few years ago? |
Protecttehornet
I'm awaiting your response regarding the Airtours accident in Manchester.
In my view you have posted comments that are untrue - no problem to me personally but other readers may believe them to be true which in my opinion is unacceptable. Regards Exeng |
EXENG
please see my post (number 19) in this thread. I apologized there...perhaps you missed it....read carefully. |
Could the runway itself have had a catastrophic pavement failure, not as a result of this incident, but as a cause?
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Whether germane here or not, I do see a rationale in PTH's stubbornness. It may not be modern, but once upon a time, The Captain ruled the roost. His was the call, he ate crow or drank freebies depending on his judgment, no music while he thinks, no "call a friend", or "ask the audience".
Because it may be perceived safest, maybe current command rests a little too heavily on "the odds". I heard Hank say once, "Safety? Shmafety, I don't think about safety. Frankly I don't need to think, All I need to do is the right thing, every time, immediately." Of course it's an exaggeration, modern reality wants the "Nuance" right? bear |
:ugh::ugh::ugh:PTH...IMHO you know not of what you speak...You quote references and sources, yet you give no links or references at all...
If your mind-set for this thread is your attitude and belief, please let me know which Airline you work for (if any) so I can avoid flying on them... You sound like one of those "After 100 knots we will take it in the air and treat it like an IFE"..."Captains"...ie...a loser...ever heard of "V-1"?...On real Jets it's a lots more than 100 kts... And when did California become the "largest" state in the USA??? Manchester was in the 70's, and WE all learned from that..Don't delay...evacuate... BTW...less than 2 yrs on the Prune and you have almost 900 posts??? Oh-I forgot...you know it all and you're trying to "educate" your fellow pilots...(your words, not mine)... |
Down In three Green
you claim I don't know of what I speak.
California is the largest state in the USA in terms of population. Anyone disagree there?????? alaska of course in size, texas in ego (number two in size). 100 knots is a very critical time in the takeoff, though V1 is usually higher. I am pretty sure you aren't a pilot though. I might be wrong there, but why else would you ask what airline I work for...you would only fly on YOUR airline if you were a pilot...its free remember? |
When I was a brand new captain on a 737 I believed unless it was the last resort I wouldn't evacuate because of the high chance of injuries. I got a positive bomb threat going to LAX one day with a brand new FO. The caller of the threat said it was set for 2500 ft on the descent. I called dispatch to see if Palmdale was above 2500 ft and while they were looking it up saw my cabin was at 100 ft so said I was going to continue into LAX since I was downwind already and had insufficient fuel for Reno. I said make sure the pushup stairs are available because the fwd airstairs are deferred as inop. They said ok. I landed and approaching the area to disembark passengers saw no pushup stairs so called ops and said where are they? They said we are working on it. I advised the FA's we were going to use all the slides with a full load of passengers. The chief asked why did you use the slides if nothing happened at 2500 ft? I said because bombs have non FAA approved altimeters and sometimes don't work unless you are patient and wait. Never heard any more but I felt sick knowing all those people were going down the slides for another false bomb threat.
Evacuating is a tough call sometimes. It is probably used more than necessary but I thought in my case if I had waited 20 minutes after parking for the stairs and it went off the FAA would fry me and I would be responsible for lost lives and injuries. It is a judgement call by the captain and I wouldn't second guess him if he went for getting the people out. Sim training usually has you call the tower and check for visual signs of fire before evacuating. Jet Blue probably did the same thing they did to pass their sim check. |
perhaps we can suggest that all airport fire rescue teams have a useable portable set of stairs in line after the fire engines approach a stricken plane.
P51 guy...that story sounds like a movie I saw...but they made denver. |
Guess what, the first thing I thought of was the movie when I was informed of the 2500 ft detonator. I knew our 737 couldn't go to Denver so since Reno would land us with zero fuel I chose Palmdale over the hill. At SJC I was walking around the airplane and saw nothing out of the ordinary so didn't think it would be in the wheel well. Knowing the cabin altitude was down the safest thing was to land at LAX. My brand new FO was flying so said be totally configured by 3,000 ft and land very gently. On the van ride back to SNA the driver had the radio on talking about our landing with the bomb threat. I told the FO you know you have had a rough day when the news is talking about your landing. I love that movie.
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I wish I could remember the name of that movie...I think van johnson was in it and it isn't shown very often.
bishop, california might have worked...if reno was zero fuel, its 200 miles closer...pretty high up too. but you did the right thing...I guess the guy who called in the bomb threat lived in palmdale and knew the elevation (2543) and had seen the movie...maybe made a bet with a girl that he could make an air cal 737 land at palmdale. all the best |
This was the movie in question... The Doomsday Flight (1966).
The Doomsday Flight (1966) (TV) At the start of my career in the 1970s, I was told (FWIW) by an old-timer was the reason it's almost never shown is that every time it was, there was a spike a telephoned threats. That was based on the looney-to-normal person ratio back then, and I can't argue with the logic, given the larger number of loonies out there today... :( |
thanks senior dispatcher for the movie info and the reason it isn't on tv more often.
barometric or altimetric bombs are nothing new of course. the A bomb over hiroshima was an ''airburst" triggered to explode in the sky and not on contact with the ground and in the film , "failsafe" made before, "the doomsday flight", the H bombs were to be triggered at 8000'...the vindicators had gone below that before arming and would climb over their target and never release, killing themselves and destroying the target. |
Somebody mentioned Autobrake; selecting the takeoff setting (3 as I recall) deliberately or otherwise would have given everyone a surprise :E
We were warned that we should never select it for landing, it's function being to bring the aircraft to a halt in the shortest possible distance in the event of an RTO. |
I'm just going to go back to the posts on page one about how they shouldn't have evacuated and waited for a safer way to get off like air stairs. He referred to British air tours. The people who died in the British air tour disaster died because they didn't get off fast enough. The smoke from the burning plastics was toxic. They made a good choice in evacuating.
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protect the hornet
My apologies to you - I had missed your statement in the previous post.
Regards Exeng |
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