If the BBC map is correct, according to Goggle Earth it is exactly 7 n.m. from the AER (approach end runway) of Runway 12 to the crash site.

2510 feet circle to land altitude and 3600m visibilty for a Cat D ...for Cat C is 2410 feet and 2400m vis.

think they were inside the minima's

ATC is very professional in islamabad

I don't think the BBC map is accurate - the site is within a few yards of the first ridge line in the mountain park. Add a couple of miles.

-drl

Denlopviper,

Thanks obviously minima was not the problem here, however the situation I described earlier did happen and minima were broken in that case.

AUH

My question as an outsider - how in the world did this airplane not climb over this relatively small ridge? He must have been light on fuel so a rapid climb is within the capability of the airplane - the weather was cloudy and rainy but by no means was the ridge completely obscured - the local visibility was excellent shortly after the crash, and we can assume that no fog banks were suddenly erased between the time of the news coverage and the incident. Is there some aspect of the FMC that inhibits rapid climb? One witness inside the park said the plane was "unbalanced", by which one may possibly infer that the plane was near stalling while attempting to climb over the ridge (he ALMOST made it :( )

-drl

desitter said A response to a GPWS in the 'bus is full aft stick and thrust levers to the wall. The 'bus does not stall but with full aft stick it goes to max AoA. This would not be a go-around but an escape maneuver.

Been to OPRN many times, but not recently, is there now an approach to rwy-12??

Absolutely not, if you push the thrust levers to the TOGA detent as required.

In fact, an A320 series aircraft will climb faster & safer than an equivalent 737 in such a situation. The Alpha Protection mode will ensure that the maximum climb rate can be achieved without stalling or overloading the airframe.

This is how Airbus manages such impressive aerial displays and demonstration climb rates at airshows.

However the aircraft shouldn' t have been that far from the runway.
Nothing prevents an aircraft to climb in this situation, either AP ON or OFF.
At this stage, end of downwind, you must be AP OFF. And if you see the rwy that doesn' t mean the hills aren' t covered by clouds , ie invisible, hidden. Even if the weather is clear 10 mns later...

An air tragedy hits Pakistan
 

All 146 pax and 6 crew members on board ED 202 dead. Imtiaz Elahi, the Chairman of the Capital Development Authority which deals with emergencies and reports to the Interior Ministry was quoted saying, "It is a tragedy and I confirm it with pain, there are no survivors".:sad:

If he was flying the ILS to 30, he was way off-course. Islamabad has SSR and they do a very good job vectoring you. ATC would have warned him. Maybe he ignored them. That's what you are inclined to do if you have 30,000 hours.

Spatial disorientation, loss of situational awareness, complacency, over-confidence? Take your pick. The first two have become chillingly commonplace recently.

I would also imagine that if he was flying the DME arc to 12 that he was flying manually and we have heard a lot about loss of flying skills because of the over-reliance on automation. Maybe he stalled her.

Too bad we have no tradition of disclosure of air accidents. The ATC tapes, the DFDR and CVR will be quickly sealed and the public fed BS and left to speculate. We will never know. No lessons learnt so we are doomed to repeat them.

'A doctor buries his mistake. A pilot is buried with his.'

Sorry, I forgot. You cannot stall the Bus, right? Alpha Floor protection and all that stuff.

Did the captain retire from PIA 7 years ago? The retirement age was 60 but was recently pushed up to 62 by the CAA of Pakistan. I imagine he was rather long in the tooth.

Get off the FMC trip deSitter
 

deSitter:
OK, so this is about the third post where you have tried to infer some aspect of the 'FMC' (sic) is to blame related to this crash. I assume you have never, ever been near any FBW Airbus right? At least nowhere near the pointed end, except perhaps to get on/off. Stop making unfounded accusations. There is nothing whatsoever that implies any aspect of the aircraft's intrinsic performance were to blame here. I'm all for considered opinion and even the odd educated WAG here and there, but this is simply unfounded.

To answer your first question: "how in the world did this airplane not climb over this relatively small ridge" - if you point the plane at it, it will go there....

'nuff said

- GY :bored:

Meekal - you have me confused - have you read the thread? What is this about 'not following the ILS route to R30' and where does DME12 arc come from?

Well you may stall if some systems are not functionning.

Also being reported that F/O (confirmed ex airforce) had just joined Airblue. Just completed training and been released on line - this was his second flight. Any affect the crew pairing of a highly experienced Capt with a new F/O might have had?

Yes, the FO wouldn' t challenge the experienced Captain; as well he would be a bit " young " in commercial flights to fully assess the danger of the situation.

FBW390

Situational Awareness
 

Under odd conditions or variation in flight, the chances are very much in which poor situational awareness may develop and reaction time may be limited to come out safely.

A local media station in Islamabad reportedly has a transcript/recording of a conversation between ATC and the flight deck. I haven't seen it, but it's been told to me as "turn left - you're flying towards the Margalla" -- "I can see them".

I'm not vouching for its accuracy, just passing it on.

CAT D PANS-OPS Circle-to-Land area:

http://tinyurl.com/2d564b9