And the airline's response too. Looks like both parties have been at odds for a while. Regarding the engineering sim sessions:The Ethiopia response comes close to amusing, if there weren't so many dead bodies involved. The repetition of "loss of integrity of the pitch flight control system" flying in the face of all evidence brings to mind the Iraqi information Minister...

If you manage to read past all that there's a couple of gems near the bottom:Gets the response:And finally, right at the end they drop this in:So, the crew didn't have a clue what they were doing after all then ? [but it's still the a/c at fault...]

The airline attitude seems to be:

• Airline and crew did nothing wrong, ever
• The crew flew into a fatal storm cell because ATC told them to
• Control inputs being all over the place is because the flight control system was broken first
• Their crew would have recovered (even given the broken control system...) from a 400kt+ spiral dive when already pulling over 4G, but unfortunately someone blew them up / shot them down at 1300ft, and why isn't anyone investigating that because it's obviously the real problem...

:ugh:

The Pilots usually get the blame....... again
 

We all know it takes a chain of causes to make this sort of tragedy happen.

It is not surprising that the manufacturer gives itself a clean bill of health (again). Keen pprune watchers will recall the rudder pcu saga and remember United 585 or US Air 424 and indeed Silk Air? More recently, KQ509 (a 737-800) makes for interesting reading, given that the entire wreckage was left to be pillaged in the swamp outside Doula.

I was interested here to check the issue with the Trim Tab.

"In addition, a motivating factor for examination of the left side tab mechanism is the fact

that the inboard attach bearing was found with all of the bearing balls missing. It was
subsequently found (see Enclosure 2 Metallurgical Exam) that this condition existed at the

time of the accident."


That's all fine then, because the pilots got it wrong, so let's forget about the AD on this issue and any manufacturer related issues...

That's the difference: When it's a Boeing, it's always pilots fault. When it's an Airbus - it's always Airbus' fault, even when the crew faults are apparent...

On a more rational note: Silk Air 185 was definetly homocide.

I would hope that if Ethiopian Airways cannot accept the report's findings in the light of clear evidence that their airline will be banned from using other States' Airspace.

@fireflybob:

on a press conference held for local journalists, the CEO is even blaming CIA and mossad. his main argument being, in the document leaked my wikileaks, in a memo sent from embassy of US in jerusalem to washington, it says ET will have hard time ahead because the investigation most probably will reveal pilot error. ET CEO said, how can he americans say like this unless they r aware of some sabotage. while he was clever enough to dig arguments like this, he intentionally goes blind when it comes to the overwhelming evidences which support pilot error.

Report mentions that the a/c was frequently, or constantly, out of trim.

737-800 is sensitive to control wheel pressure/inputs while trying to engage the autopilot. I'm not sure if an out of trim, or significantly out of trim, a/c will allow the A/P to be engaged. Maintaining attitude would require force on the yoke and releasing it would display it from neutral as it seeks the trimmed speed.

Automation 101 - push a button and VERIFY that the correct action took place. No assuming, verify.

SwissCheese:

As an airline pilot, I would agree with you on not taking the easy road and blaming the pilot all the time. But you can't ignore the CVR and FDR data. At no point do the pilots discuss any difficulty with flight controls. They were clearly lost and overwhelmed by the situation they found themselves in. Their communications sound more like the Colgan Air Q400 crash - pure confusion of the situation they were in.

Take a look at the UPS accident report. Their flight controls began failing almost immediately due to the raging fire in the main-deck. Right away, you see a discussion between the CA and FO about the apparent lack of controls (caused by the slacking of the control cables due to the heat).

No-one here denies that both Airbus and Boeing have their issues and have had some accidents which bring up the questions of mechanical failures. But this doesn't seem like one of those.

This is not how things work in an ICAO environment.

The airline can say what it wants and dispute any investigatory findings and recommendations.

Whether the believe them or not, or just want their investors to have faith in the airline is immaterial.

It is up to their regulator to take any action they deem appropriate to follow up. For all we know there is nothing now to be done if the airline has already addressed any possible issues without admitting legal culpability.

For the rest of us aviation professionals, there is only the lessons learned in our own minds

No faults were recorded, yokes were interconnected and captain had 21 years and 10 233 hours under his belt. I might have missed something but I don't recall KLM ever fully accepting the Spanish report regarding the loss of Rijn.

Now what?

Or Turkish aportioning the blame for AMS fairly between Boeing & themselves.

As you say "now what". :rolleyes:

Absolute nonsense. The FDR and CVR depicts pandemonium. Yes the environmental factors were challenging; high terrain on the coast, convective activity, heavy rain and darkness. But these two shouldnt have been let anywhere near an aeroplane. You can take the FO out of the equation, he added nothing. The Captain completely incompetent, his control inputs erratic. The breakdown of situational awareness goes as far as suggesting subtle incapacitation. I am very aware that it is the easiest thing in the world to read an accident report and cast opinion, however this was deplorable. And Ethopian's response is criminal. What a disgraceful organisation.

callsign kilo

I accept your right to an opinion such as this and I have no arguments against it.

However I doubt that there can be a judicial finding of crimanality or even any kind of futhur action against Ethiopian Airlines. Based on these findings

to err is human.

hopefully ET has addressed any shortcomings in this regard

The use of the word criminal was not to infer that ET had created a criminal act in response to the reports findings. It was to highlight the disgraceful response to an accident which can be boiled down to little less than negligence. The combined experience on type on that Flightdeck was 538 hours. The Captain had accumulated his 188hrs in a 51 day period with minimum rest. Although jet experienced, his previous command type was a Fokker 50. There's a massive difference. He was also dealing with an extremely inexperienced and ineffective FO in challenging circumstances. The report underlines deplorable handling ability,a complete lack of airmanship, non existent situational awareness and workload management. This is all topped off by ET's refusal to acknowledge gross error. They talk about a FOQA program (which could offer little to no value) and blame Boeing on their design of one of the most successful commercial aircraft that they ever produced. Yes, the -800 isn't without it's flaws, however the very fact that the autopilot cannot be engaged when control column input is applied is actually quite logical. I would also suggest that Boeing have covered the area relating to the provision of an alert signifying that the autopilot isn't engaged. Large green letters above the AI and below the FMA stating 'CMD' will not appear.

Again, Im not really in favour of sitting back and firing both barrells of judgement at accident findings; however this all amounts to a very sad picture in commercial aviation safety.

I agree totally with Callsign Zero....in everything you have said....and Boeing trainers even say if you only ever going to read or check 1 FMA then make sure you check and read the CMD FMA as pressing the autopilot button then releasing the controls to look out the window whilst the other pilot is heads down writing or talking to ATC/Changing frequencies can kill you...so read and check that when you press for the AP you get the CMD green FMA...Boeing even made it bigger on the NG than from the CLASSIC to help all us old men with poor eyes.

Over the past few years several operators have been banned from using/landing in various states within Europe due to low standards.

If the CEO of Ethiopian Airlines is going to react badly to the official accident report and engage in a misguided public relations battle, instead of doing something constructive about the airline's safety culture, then SLF should vote their disapproval by keeping their wallets closed.

I couldent agree more FS!

Criminal conduct - things will actually happen
 

Interesting that professional pilots are talking about criminal actions here. The perceived wisdom is that criminal sanctions are counter productive to air safety and a safety culture (vs blame culture).

Do you recall the Lebanese Criminal Court last year convicting the Directors of a West African Operator for a Boeing 727 crash that killed a number of Lebanese nationals? 20 years jail time with hard labour... for the individuals and criminal compensation of US$500k to each of the families (over and above any civil compensation).

Given that 50+ Lebanese families lost their loved ones on this flight, I would expect there is sufficient national interest to commence a criminal case against the Airline and its management. Watch this space.

The ET response is a pity. They really dug themselves out of the generic African carrier model over the last decade, even the ditching added to their kudoss.

Sadly, it seems that Africaitis strike again. :confused:

Blacklist benefits to air safety