Irish ATC Disruption 20 Jan 2010
 

Just announced on RTE that irish air traffic controllers will be on strike from 2pm -6pm 20th Jan 2010. This will close not only the main airports including Dublin, Cork, Shannon, but also Irish airspace for over-flights.

According to the news, ATC paid 120K+ per year and looking for an increase..... Ryanair f/o's 24K:eek:..... Somethings gone seriously wrong with the industry me thinks:suspect:


Rant over

Jesus, what contract are you on. Even the new offer of a DUB based FO Ryanair contract was 4k more than that! Not that anyone I know accepted it!

Here's the IAA's argument... Irish Aviation Authority - Update from the Irish Aviation Authority

and IMPACT's ......well, er, they don't even mention it on their website. Any ATCs on here willing to enlighten us? Or do you want 6% for that too? :rolleyes:

Thread running in the ATC forum.

Be careful of the spinning.
Irish ATC controllers point of view here 2010 Irish ATC dispute – get the facts

The thread in the ATC Forum covers it better than here.

So the underlying motive to strike, as put by the union, was that 15 contollers were suspended by the IAA. The cause is failing to comply with the introduction of new technology (is that correct?) The controllers believe that the introduction of new technology and working practices has increased pressure and has allowed the job to become more stessfull? However, lurking in the background, is a 6% pay increase which the IAA will not honour. So if they honour the 6% and bring your colleagues back to work, will ATC comply with the new technology and will the job become less stressful knowing that you have an extra 6% gross on your salary?

Keeping in mind that capacity has dropped (Ryanair say up to 25% - open for debate due to the source). Average ATC payment in Ireland is 112K (is that correct?) However introductory level is around 55k. With 6% that will raise to 58.3K. And already something like 30.65% of your salary is placed in your pension fund by the authority.

So who funds this, the struggling airlines? Can't see that escaping resistance, as a result you may have even less work to do due to capacity dropping further! The government...nope, not intersted - why should they be?. Airports....doubtful! IAA customers besides the airlines...well I can see some charges being risen there undoubtably. Even if the IAA has the money to pay you an extra 6% a year NOW they will hide this fact and look to source the lost revenue externally.

I've been an FO of a mid sized airliner for two years and don't earn 55K. I can't see many guys in my position supporting your industrial action i'm affraid. If you get your way its our employers who will bare the brunt of it. And that will filter down to us. Always does!

Wouldnt it be nice if airlines gave their pilots an extra 6% when they change aircraft types!

All that extra 'stress' with the introduction of new technology must be rewarded, or should it - after all, we're just doing the job we are paid for!!!!!!

EXACTLY could not have put it better myself:D

At least the ATCs are putting up a fight to maintain/improve their conditions. In the name of getting up hours pilots forgot how to do that a long time ago. No body forces pilots to work for that pay, do those long hours. We as an industry have self inflicted that upon ourselves. So if you signed up for a wage and conditions that are less than others, well dry your eyes and don't have a go at a group of people who are willing to improve their lot.

Well said Biggles, sitting on the other side of the world looking in. I don't know how things are 'down unda' at the moment, but in Ireland they are on their arse. High rates of unemployment, failing economy in nearly ever sector, businesses collapsing or relocating overseas, tax, income levy and national insurance hikes in order to bail out the economy, appauling weather and disruption, widescale flooding leaving large sections of the community homeless......the list is endless...endless!

If they want to protect their interests, fine...nothing against that. Do it from a position of strength. The public will only see this as additional misery at a time when misery is abound. When they hear some of the figures involved there will be nothing but resentment directed at the controllers. Cold hard face of it!

and how does striking for an extra 6% help that little lot?

The Irish economy, and the Irish aviation industry have been in meltdown for the last couple of years. To think the average ATCO package is €160,000 is unbelievable. Have they taken (like everybody else has) any salary reductions in recent times? (10% + has been the norm). Looking for a 6% rise in the current economic climate beggars belief. Do they care about jeopardising jobs in an already struggling Irish aviation business? Do they care about the damage they are doing to Ireland's faltering international reputation? Are these the same people that struggled to achieve anywhere near international standards on single runway movements at DUB during peak times? There are very few flight deck crew on this sort of renumeration.

There is a time and a place for everything, as a group of people you have got this completley wrong, there are industrial mechanisms in place for dispute resolution, why not follow them. Get real, or the government should adopt a Reagan type solution.

Unbelievable because, of course, it isn't. I'm not an Irish ATCO but, as I understand it, that figure relates to someone at the top of the scale and includes all employment costs ie.- employer's pension contribution etc. The basic average salary is nowhere near this figure.

Well the introductory salary is 55K. Plus a 30.65% pension contribution which the employees do not contribute to. What else on top of that? Health Cover? Allowances?? Contractual agreements? What is the tier system for an ATCO? When's the next pay raise?

They are having their arse wiped for them in every corner. Cowan has come out and said the general public should not have to pay for their grievances. That's what the Labour Court is for.

And the comment is totally apt regarding single runway utilisation at peak periods at EIDW. You are totally screwed if RW10 is in use! Speed up, slow down, hold, 20nm finals.

Maybe a few days in Gatwick or Stansted would be of use. Then they would really understand the meaning of 'stressful.'

What a load of Bullsh1t!

I think this strike will focus public attention on the 'Package' provided to ATCO's who through nothing short of greed see it as their right to hold a country to ransom at very short notice. An I'm alright Jack and to hell with everyone else attitude.

Here is a prime example of how Trade unions run things into the ground and can't see the wood for the trees.

There has been a general decline in defined benefit schemes, the costs of providing them are excessive and unsustainable.

Get actuaries to value the scheme with a view to changing it to a defined contribution one and let the employees work to put money aside for themselves to provide for their own retirement years.

If such well paid individuals cannot provide without interuption the services they are being paid to then let them forfeit their jobs and have replacements organised.

Closing every major airport in the country will make Ireland the laughing stock of Europe.

The IMPACT trade union aswell as every other trade union in Ireland should be ran out of the country. Watching the IMPACT trade union spokesperson last night on the rte news was making my blood boil. He would not answer a single question that was put to him and he thinks its a good idea to strike. Does he not realise the aviation industry is on its knees. Two Irsh airlines are on the brink and this is what IMPACT do too help the situation?? :ugh::ugh:

MOL is right to keep the trade unions out of Ryanair. They are useless and do nothing only look out for themselves. If airlines go bust and there are no planes in the sky there are no need for air traffic controllers so the trade union is not helping its members at all!

Not just in Ireland
 

Firstly the IAA is obligated to recover its operating costs from it customers - the airlines, so we know who will pay. IAA would seem to be doing the right thing especially when at least one local carrier is on its knees.

Second the ATCO's are well paid by any standard, and usually the work hours are not to onerous. And where else do you get a non contributory pension of 30%!?

Go on strike? Make a fuss about new equipment? keep your head down, keep quiet and hope no-one finds out more like!

Third its not just ireland. In Spain where controllers are paid rather more (perhaps double Ireland) the public have recently become aware of this "gravy train"

There was a piece in the Spanish News last week about controllers now being targettted to abuse by angry tax payers, daubing paint on controllers houses, vandalising cars etc...

Chickens will come home to roost in Ireland and elsewhere.

I predict an unpleasant year or two for the ATCO fraternity.

Katy

The real problem in Ireland is that Public Sector trades unions have been over-indulged by governments for years (under the guise of "partnership"). So while pay cuts have been quite common in the Private sector and pay levels generally lower, the public sector unions gone on a gigantic sulk when they were levied for contributions for generous pension schemes, and when their pay was cut.

The biggest difference is that the Public Sector guys have virtually total immunity from compulsory redundancy, while the Private sector has had huge redundancy levels. Pubilc sector levels of pay are sill at a handsome premium compared with provate sector, and even more handsome when compared with like occupations in the UK and W.Europe - not only ATCOS, but nurses, doctors, teachers, police.....

The Ryanair comment that even though traffic and ATCO workloads are down significantly, but there have been no redundancies, is for once spot on. Totally in contrast to other poor devils working in the air transport industry.

They couldn't give a toss because they are unwilling to see beyond the moment. External circumstances don't raise union fees or lobby votes. They refuse to answer awkward questions regarding the knock on economic effect or public disruption because it simply isn't any of their concern. It is always somebody elses fault at the end of the day.

I mean suggesting the implementation of new technolgy as the root cause of this action makes a mockery of the public. Everybody knows why aviation in Ireland has come to a grinding hault today!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$

The number suspended is up to 20 now. The IAA ARE NOT going to back down on this one. The ATCO's need to realise that the IAA pay their wages and do the hiring and firing not IMPACT:hmm:

Roadrunner.....

According to the IAA the average ATCO package is €160,000 with the top 10% at €230,000 as reported by RTE. Why is it not believable. They pay NO pension contributions, they have not taken ANY pay cuts, they ARE looking for a 6% rise, they will NOT accept the introduction of new techology, and are far from being the most efficient ATCOs. They ARE holding this country to ransom, and they WILL feel a massive public backlash. They care not for the rest of us in this industry hanging on by our fingernails, in fact they have given us two fingers. I also understand they were having a pre-strike vent this morning at their airline customers, ensuring that every flightplan followed every waypoint, wasn't a direct routing to be had. Spineless, greedy bunch, this gravy train has to be halted, as does the ridiculous amounts charged by Eurocontrol!

See you've all taken time to read the thread in the ATCO forum then. Why let the truth get in the way of a good rant. :ugh:

And neither will the majority of the Irish people and those 20,000 effected by the strike today. That's where the game is lost. To them and us the rant is viable!

I've read through the thread in the ATC forum and complained at the lack of transparency on the strikers side. Even to the point where one contributor, presumably ATC himself advised others to not get involved in the debate.

We don't actually know the truth. Because no one is telling the truth. I even saw a union rep on the RTE news saying this dispute was about the suspended controllers. The IAA says it's about money. I'll tell you what the general public see. Another example of a well paid unionised public service holding everyone to ransom. No one is telling the truth. The public may be a lot of things but they're not that stupid.

If it's true the ATC were effectively working to rule and deliberately avoiding any flexibility to it's 'customers'. Then it's an utter disgrace.

Rarely have I seen such a universally negative reaction to any similar dispute. Both here and other forums and elsewhere. ATC have dug a very deep hole for themselves.

I expecting the backlash here but....

Firstly I'm am an ATCO but do not work for IAA. I have had my conditions of employment and pension changed significantly. I have also took a freeze like most ATCOs in the UK

How can you compare flight crew pay and conditions to ATCOs? Flight crew get the going rate within their industry so do ATCO's.

The main difference is that there is a worldwide shortage of qualified ATCO's where as there is unfortunately there an abundance of surplus flight crew(for a number of reasons including the economic downturn etc)

Why not compare Doctors, lawyers etc to ATCO's they obviously get the going rate in their industry

On a personal note, we are all professionals and we do our best to provide the best service we can. We understand that there is a reduction in traffic and we dont just sit on or backsides reading the paper. We endevour to use the spare capacity to co-ordinate re-routes, directs, straight in etc all which take considerable time and often many phone calls.

How many of those people here moaning about the IAA controllers have actually visited an ATC centre? Those who havent how could you possibly know how stressful the job is?

With the invention of modern aircraft systems and ATC systems we are all becoming observers and checkers. Just remember flight crews and ATCOs alike we all get paid for what we can do, not necessarily what we do on a daily basis e.g. emergencies

To all the IAA ATCO, well done for making a stand. I only wish my union had the same balls!

:ok:

Just for the record I have visited Cork TWR/APP and Shannon ACC and I am well aware of how stressful it is. But surely they are not doing themselves any favours the way they have gone about things? And now they have stopped giving shortcuts and in one airport not filing local flight plans which they have done for years. Is it not getting a bit silly at this stage?

No one denies the job can be stressful. Of course it can. You only have to fly within the London TMA or to a major airport at peak time to see what ATCOs deal with. However when it appears that the union has disguised the introduction of new technolgy and working practices as a stressor which as a result has left 20 ATCOs suspended by the IAA as they failed to comply with the new methods, something appears to be amiss. Especially when pay increases, high average salaries, massive pension contributions and lowered capacity is mentioned in the same breath!

Put it in the perspective of the pilot. We have lower average salaries than ATCOs, which I agree is no fault but our own, yet in a dynamic industry we continually have our working practices altered. We often change aircraft type, mostly at the decision and request of our employers. It requires lenghty conversion courses, examining and training on line. I've never heard of anybody actually striking over it and I'm not aware of anyone getting a pay raise because of it (unless they deliberately change operator for sake of a better contract). The same goes for the majority of professions that introduce new technolgy and practices which in turn require their staff to be retrained.

If no one actually knows what the real 'story' behind the ATCOs industrial action is then someone better come out and publicly announce it. Instead IMPACT have made an arse of you all by making the public out to be stupid feckers and appearing indifferent about the disruption caused. People have no time for this kind of behaviour, especially now!

From Ryanair website.
 

ATC SEEK 6% PAYRISE DESPITE 25% FALL IN WORKLOAD

Due to industrial action by overpaid and underworked air traffic controllers in Ireland, Ryanair has been forced to cancel 52 flights today (20th Jan) affecting over 6,000 passengers. Please see the below list of cancelled flights which were scheduled to operate to and from Ireland today (20th Jan).

Passengers affected by these flight cancellations should seek compensation from IMPACT General Secretary Peter McLoone at [email protected] or on +353-1- 8171529.

Traffic at Irish Airport fell 15% in 2009, and is set to fall further. National air traffic controllers are seeking a 6% pay rise, yet their workload has reduced by 25%. These overpaid air traffic controllers should agree to substantial pay cuts to reflect the reduced productivity being demanded of them at Irish airports this year.

Doesn't help when Dublin's largest operator plasters this all over their website does it?

Expect MOL to turn this into a PR Circus. How do you counteract an already swayed public opinion? I believe in effective collective representation, however IMPACT have well an truely ****** up again :ouch:

Michael Lanson from IMPACT has stated more strikes are likely. Noel Dempsey, Transport Secretary, has said they will look at ways of making strikes effecting essential services illegal.

IMPACT still maintain the introduction of new technologies and the suspension of staff is the cause.

The IAA still maintain that ATCOs are holding out for 6% and that they won't contribute to their pensions.

The public are well and truely pissed off and clearly see through the sh1te. Your going to get ****** on this one!

Get back to work
 

I think ATC do a great job, it must be hard listening to all nationalities of pilot wanting this and that, and at the end of the day its them who are the first line of defense in preventing accidents but this action is just wrong.

Like the muppets that are Aer Lingus Pilots , they are not living in the real world. Can they honestly say , giving the economic and industry conditions that this behaviour acceptable. Thankfully as a taxpayer I dont contribute to the ridiculous salaries they still pay in Aer Lingus anymore but I do contribute to Irish ATCs, and If I had anything to do with it Id do a Ronald Regan and give you an ultimatum, get back to work of join the massive dole queue.

This public sector wasteful bulls*** has had its day

yeh , they really havent a clue do they . The worrying thing is that they genuinely believe that they are right , God help us

Professionals?

Today we have just experienced ATCOs here who have such poor situational awareness coupled with a complete inability to think more than one move ahead and who for some form of arrogance that one can only get from being overpaid and underworked, took self satisfaction at their ability to hold the country and travelling public to ransom.

You'll get down off your high towers yet.

reply
 

Corsair,
as a result of management actions after previous dispute where members were threatened with disciplinary actions after posts on pprune and to avoid the unnecessary annoyance that can be caused by reading some of these posts it was requested that members stay away from forums like this and facebook we get enough **** in the media.
IAA management are DEFINITELY on this forum hunting for anything that they can use and looking to create stress, again, another reason to stay off.

Look at the rumours and news forum its an IAA/ atco bashing shag- in designed solely to give the media the Impression that there is no support for ATCOs in the wider aviation community.

737-500
MAN the F**k Up. So you saved all your communion money and bought a pilots licence, well aren't you great, now you hear there's someone else in the aviation world earning more than you and you're off on your crusade.
As for the Ridiculous assertion the I was handed my job that marks you out as an immature tw4t.
Induction (one week) - This is classroom based and students are taught about the Irish Aviation Authority and given a general overview of the aviation industry.
Familiarisation (one week) - Students are introduced to the Shannon based operational areas of the IAA. Visits are arranged to local airlines and the Met office and students also take a trip onto Shannon airfield.
Team building - The class spends three days at an adventure centre for team building.
Theory module (three months) - Subjects include Air Law, Navigation, Meteorology, Theory of Flight and Communications. There are frequent progress tests throughout this module ending with written and oral examinations.
Basis skills training - The class is broken into three groups of eight. Students spend six weeks each learning Non-Radar skills, Radar skills and Aerodrome skills. At the end of this stage students are assigned to Cork, Dublin or Shannon.
Rating training (12 weeks) - Students are trained in a specific airspace at Cork, Shannon or Dublin.
On-the-job-training (OJT) (16 weeks) - Students are coached by on-the-job-training-instructors (OJTIs). These are qualified air traffic controllers who monitor the progress of the student. (shamelessly lifted from the IAA website)

Which part of that sounds like handed out to you??
Remember 737-500 you control 1 airplane (with your captain)
ATCOs control them all

Missing the Point
 

Viper 3

I think you're missing the overall point in this thread - start from the beginning and read it all! Specifics don't matter to the general population (aviation or general) as in this day and age anyone can claim to speak the truth about the facts.

What I, and many others see is a bunch of highly paid individuals looking for more in a time when the country (and indeed most of our neighbours) can't afford these requests. So what if new technology is being introduced.... There isn't an industry in the world that hasn't had to adapt to remain competitive - and you want more money to erode any benefits this technology may bring.

Take a look at the now defunct printing industry in Ireland the UK. For years the well paid printers looked for extra money every time something 'new' was introduced. Many print firms even paid their workers in cash every week because the union wouldn't accept an electronic payment method without huge compensation! Now where are those companies - bust and the jobs in mainland Europe and further afield leaving workers who were so 'super-qualified' and compensated that they had no chance of finding a job that would use their life long skills or the type of money they were used to! Many are now driving taxis!

Look at the big picture and keep your head down in these times.

from: fxcentre Breaking News

Air traffic dispute is set to escalate

Thursday, 21st January 2010 09.33am

The air traffic controllers' dispute is set to escalate, with the Impact union warning that further action is likely to happen "sooner rather than later".

Up to 20,000 passengers suffered disruption yesterday when controllers halted flights with a four hour walk out at Dublin, Cork and Shannon airports.

Two more controllers were suspended yesterday, in addition to an earlier 12, for failing to co-operate with the introduction of new technology.

The controllers are to meet in Roscrea, Co Tipperary, this morning to decide their next step.

As pressure mounts on the government to intervene in the dispute, there is a growing expectations that the Labour Court will be asked to help.

In a statement ahead of this morning's union meeting the controllers' employer, the Irish Aviation Authority, said no business can have its staff dictate what work they will or will not do.

"The IAA wants full services restored as quickly as possible and calls on controllers and Impact to return to normal work so that discussions can take place," it says.

"In any such discussions, which the IAA is willing to have, the authority wants an assurance from controllers and Impact that they will link all three issues that need to be addressed: pay increase, pension contribution, and work practices. "The work that controllers are now refusing to do is work they have been doing for the last two years and were doing until three weeks ago. On January 1, 2010, they refused to continue such work. No business can have its staff dictate what work they will do and will not do, particularly in a safety-critical business such as ours. "All air traffic control systems are continuously upgraded as a matter of course. This is a high-tech service requiring ongoing technical upgrades to its systems, many of them Windows-based. "The IAA's customers - the airlines - cannot pay additional charges every time such upgrades and updates occur. The IAA receives no State aid, is funded by the airlines, and would have to pass on to the airlines the entire cost of any pay increase awarded to staff."

HomerJ said:
Get real....where do you get the replacements from? Massive shortage of ATCOs worldwide all that would mean is ATCO terms and conditions improve. IAA offer even more competitive conditions to lure foreign ATCOs, the other ATC providers improve their terms and conditions to retain staff.

Either way the IAA loose and Irish airspace remains shut!

I would like to express my gratitude to my pilot colleagues that bashed ATCOs on this thread. While you were not particularly helpful in clearing up the basis of IAA - ATCOs dispute, now I better understand why we are so poorly paid.

Nicely said, Clandestino.

I simply can't believe the number of posters prepared to have a bash, here, with an apparent displayed ignorance of the issues, or a total willingness to disregard same issues.
Some of you are lemmings in training (or fully rated), or undercover management.
I suspect the latter, since it is impossible for me to believe that so many pilots could be so short sighted.