As a matter of fact

- most LH fleet C- and D-checks are done outside Germany since the early 1990s
- the facilities are called Shannon, Budapest, Manila, Malta and Sofia and were established in that order, Sofia opened last in 2008
- all facilities were established with the unanimous voting of the board of directors on which sit union and workers council members
- employment in Germany in Base and Line Maintenance has GROWN by about 1,000 employees in the same timeframe, i.e. in Frankfurt, Hamburg and Berlin mainly, e.g. by converting qualifications to special products as tankers, state and private aircraft to name a few
- not everybody could stay in exactly the same job at exactly the same airport, but this is normal life in commercial aviation
- worldwide employment has grown by about 2,000 employees in the facilities above

So where is the point here?

Where do you got that from?

Keeping C and D check within LH, what number of jobs would this mean?

Well, it is being done within LH, but at a foreing subsidiary.

As PAX, I am slightly more comfortable with that than with majors such as ANA farming out maintenance to Thailand to an operation they do not control.

In which world are you living, BRE? I remember very well that a highly reputated charter airline from your country had all the 727 heavy maintenance done in Taipeh.
That was more then thirty years ago. Get real - times have changed. Airline people,
in my view, shouldn´t think " national " anyway. Pride and loyality regarding their
company is a different story.

Let me put it this way, I would feel better if reputable airlines did their heavy maintenance in their own facilities on their home turf - less chance of things lost in translation or across a cultural divide. Since things can no longer be this way, which one has to acknowledge, I fell better if said reputable airline sets up and runs its own overseas maintenance centers.

The first thing Thai did after winning the maintenance contract for ANA's 747 fleet was to torch one of those. Also, there are quite a few hints on the net about creative maintenance that was discovered on ex-Thai 747s on entering the second hand market.

I hope you guys get this settled soon. I'm booked on DLH for a SFO-BUD flight on 3/16 so I can be there for my 60th birthday. :)

Lufthansa pilot's defending the profession
 

I would say that the Lufthansa pilot's union was pretty smart. By threatening the strike they accomplished two things: 1. Forced Lufthansa to cancel many flights with a financial penalty,and 2. Got the traveling public's attention.

I wish the union well. They are defending the industry and the scope issues for the all pilots. If we lose this battle, a pilot will just be another bus driver paid accordingly.

Multiple choice time
 

Your company is outsourcing its flying. You:

a) do nothing, lose your job as your company thrives.

b) go on strike, risk losing your job when the company goes down if MGT turns out to be insanely obstinate and would rather fly company into ground than "lose face" but then there is possible gain of being recognized as something that just can't be trampled over.

Easy one, isn't it?

With a lot of bitterness yet without any irony I can say: thank you pilots of Vereinigung Cockpit for standing up for all of us invertebrate flyers.


We did s-word for Germanwings :( There is no legal way we can do anything about it in our Boratstan.

Maybe there will be new opportunities for new pilot jobs at Lufthansa. Hopefully, contracting agencies seize the opportunity to sell their cadets to Lufthansa. There is a lot of money to be made with the pay to fly schemes! It would be great to see Lufthansa follow the lead of fine airlines such as Ryan Air and EasyJet!

LH pilots' action has been in the limelight during our latest social processes here at AF. All AF pilots have been pretty admiring of the way you have conducted this move. Well done ! I only wish we could prove to be that smart and focused.

If only all pilots throughout Europe could be that united, our profession would not be stuck in such low standards today.

Thank you for doing the right thing in standing up for all of us.
"fingers crossed" @ UTC+8

Are there any updates on this? Tomorrow appears to be another deadline. Has any progress been made, is another strike imminent?

Negotiations are still ongoing and VC doesn't expect to go on strike after tomorrow (although they stress that they could if talks go downhill). They will have more information for members Tuesday or Wednesday.

From little things big things grow
 

Full credit to the Lufthansa employees considering this action. What is heartening is that there also seems to be some sign of life in some of the airline unions in Australia and the UK. Perhaps the unions will consider "globalising" in the not too distant future.Thanks once again.

Looks like very interesting weeks to come.......

Goodmorning Studi and thanks a lot for your info!

Sorry..What does it mean about LHI "..but has to apply normal Lufthansa selection standards.."???..The selection have always been based on the Lufthansa classic scheme as:

1) DLR in Hamburg
2)Simulator for basic IFR and CRM
3)FQ in Hamburg
4)Final interview in Hamburg
5)Medical in Frankfurt

Is there anything else than this?All my collegues working in DLH they went through this same process.Or am I wrong?

Viele Grusse!;-)

re LH-Italia positions (see A, 9. II in the document):

- DLR-Test in a specific "regional" (in Italian?) form

- Capatain´s positions currently offered to mainline FOs

- will then be offered leave (!) and a local contract (!)

Sorry folks, but the proposal is in German...

Lots of discussions next week, but I guess we´ll have to accept it now.

I just hope that all the Effos have understood how the Captains have stood behind them, have given/paid them quite a few perspectives and stop complaining about having to go on the bigbus!!

Good morning,

so will they consider valid the last year DLR test?:rolleyes:

regards
azdriver

"I just hope that all the Effos have understood how the Captains have stood behind them, have given/paid them quite a few perspectives and stop complaining about having to go on the bigbus!! "

Now who would complain about having to drive a big bus :rolleyes:....

Yes they will, for LH its valid for 2 years.

EAM could you please answer to this question if you know it?

"...Sorry..What does it mean about LHI "..but has to apply normal Lufthansa selection standards.."???..The selection have always been based on the Lufthansa classic scheme as:

1) DLR in Hamburg
2)Simulator for basic IFR and CRM
3)FQ in Hamburg
4)Final interview in Hamburg
5)Medical in Frankfurt

Is there anything else than this?All my collegues working in DLH they went through this same process.Or am I wrong?

Viele Grusse!;-)..."

Thank you very much!

LHI (Lufthansa Italia) is about using a well known brand name w/o applying the established standards, more like buying monkeys with peanuts - all I know is 800 euros/month for cabin crew, don't know 'bout flt deck. The idea is employing the Alitalia/Air One fallout. Now they may proceed, but never fly to Germany.

..monkeys?
 

..just to make it clear..
are you saying that the monkeys will be the italian crews and that they will work for peanuts?... with a lower standard?

heavy.airbourne, you are simply talking about something you are not really informed about. Italian salaries are higher than than in germany incl. LH.
A F/O at AirOne makes more money than a LH F/O, so does a CPT.

If now LH thinks they can get experienced crews for peanuts, they are wrong.
They might find some unemployed pilots, but with a salary below the italian standart they wont stay for long.


@bio161 I dont really get your question, the selection has always been like this and even for LH the selection standarts have varied over the years.

Dear heavy.airborne,

I can understand your point of view but i would like only to suggest you not to make bad comments of people you don´t know and of situations you may have a little bit better clarified. Then offcourse everybody can mantain its own opinion. But i would not judge collegues "monkeys" just because they would work for a lower salary (if it´s going to be like this) and i would not see all what comes out from Alitalia and Airone just like rubbish on which nobody has to put even one euro. I don´t really want to compare anybody..There are really bad pilots in AZA as there are in DLH and there are really good ones in AZA as much as, i´m sure about, are in DLH. We all should bring some more respect towards each other. Whoever is sitting on a left/right seat at 39000 feet at mach 0.8 has the SAME amount of responsibility either he´s on an Uganda airline or the wonderful Lufthansa.
Beside this I would like only to say that if there are some pilots that are willing to fly for penauts it´s because they are probably without a job and like me with a 70000 euros debt to pay back..And i´m really sorry if my chances are "only" this to work for the peanuts of LHI..So just imagine how i would feel..to make the SAME selection, to fly the SAME plane, to have the SAME responsability... and to get LESS!..Do you want to make it a fault of us?
I wrote all this to underline a little bit the need to think a little more before writing.
To EAM..My question was related to the post before of Studi in which he was writing:

"..Lufthansa Italia can hire their own pilots, !!BUT!! has to apply normal Lufthansa selection standards. It can not fly to Germany, only to other countries.."

I was not getting so much the BUT..

Thank you to everybody and have a nice night!;-)

Well said! :ok:

So the BUT is quite simple. You fly LH BUT you will not be allowed to fly routes to germany (on LH flight numbers).

This is a good and correct compromise, as LHI pilots fly outside of the standart LH network and dont fly the germany routes on "lower conditions" and force an outsourcing with this. So the LH jobs will be protected.

The same standart, or say selection will apply to the LHI pilots which is normal and the standarts are not quite different from any other airline.

@heavy.airbourne may be you should think about the way your company (LH) threats its employees as well as future employees insted of insulting other pilots.

Unfortunately this kind of attitude was shown by some of the sim instructors who run the LHI selection last year, they failed pilots who did a perfectly good sim. It's really a pity the pilots community across Europe is so divided.
Almost all pilots who attended the selection last year were part of anpac or other italian pilot unions, it would have cost nothing to VC cockpit to just send in a note to italian pilots unions to say that there was a dispute open at LH and to advise not to apply for LH Italia jobs until the dispute was set. Instead they choose to go the rough way, not informing their colleagues that they were going to face a biased assessment wasting their only chance to join LH Italia. Very sad.
It also amazes me how LH management could let these instructors run the assessments as they were certainly aware of what was going to happen.
Good luck to the 4 pilots who passed the LH Italia assessment last year out of more than 400 assessed.

I agree with you on this EAM and not only air one and alitalia terms are good, also other italian airlines have quite good terms.

According to the terms of the agreement you stated above all commands will go to LH passage first officers (I have no doubts that there will be droves of them applying) so one less reason to apply to LH italia for italian first officers.

My opinion is that LH Italia doesn't really need to hire many local pilots, they just need to buy some support from local politics and media showing that they are giving out jobs to locals, and traditionally this is accomplished with quantity. So they will hire ground personnell and may be cabin crew in bigger numbers, hiring 20 local pilots won't buy them anything, as nobody cares about pilots.

:\ I apologize! No insult was intended. I was trying to use a colorful phrase to describe the illborne attempt of DLH management to hire professionals for ridiculously little money. I did not mean to label any person or body of employees.

Accepted. For the time the plans of the DLH managment could work, because of the high number of unemployed pilots in italy. But it will not work for too long, as I said, salaries in italy a quite higher than in germany, so I would say the AirDolomiti payscale would be the minimum, which is already more than most german Airlines pay, including the LH Regionals.
Paying peanuts will not work, as the italian job market usualy is much more flexible than the german market.

EAM, i mean no offense at all, it's just to to point out the target of this discussion. Is it going to be LH Italia or the LH agreement with the management? I'm pretty sure you have no idea how much a LH Cityline pilot earns (and it's really hard to compare a German contract with an Italian one) not to mention an Air Dolomiti one (right now they have the best contract in Italy, maybe not moneywise , but for sure concerning the labour regulations and benefits). Don't worry anyway, the VC cockpit bargaining team knows the subject really well, and i'm sure they wouldn't like to see any LH pilot "flying for peanuts"...
In addition, you don't have to forget that even the DLH management, is not sure what to do with LH Italia, and i don't think that right now they're looking forward to hire people...

worked in germany, worked in italy, know how to compare the salaries and know most of the conditions, belive me if you havent worked for AirOne or Alitalia or Volare, you have no idea how good the conditions are.
LH contracts reach that level only on the long terme.

Dear colleagues,

here is my point of view regarding one of your questions:

1) DLR in Hamburg
2)Simulator for basic IFR and CRM
3)FQ in Hamburg
4)Final interview in Hamburg
5)Medical in Frankfurt

1-5 are the requirements to be hired as a first officer. The famous DLR test will be modified. Until now, some of it is done in German, so I suspect that the modification will basically be a translation of the German questions.

If you want to become a Lufthansa captain, there is another requirement: You are only allowed to take part in the training to become a commander, if you have an experience of at least 3,000h with an airline operating in accordance with all Lufthansa standards.

That does not mean that you are not able to become a commander if you have some thousands hours of experience with another airline. Nevertheless, research has shown, that a common culture among pilots is one of many important items to establish a safe operation. A culture is something which cannot be learned from a book, especially if you are used to fly in a different environment. A culture has to be established. This can be done, if new pilots have to spend some thousand hours with experienced captains who already live that kind of culture in the cockpit. That's why Lufthansa will use captains from its mainline until the LHI first officers have a "Lufthansa - experience" of at least 3,000h and are ready to become captains.

Once again, I'd like to emphasize, that there are a lot of experienced Italian pilots who are excellent captains. All have their individual way how to do the job - and I do not talk about any procedure violations. There are just hundred ways to operate an aircraft according to the book. If you like to have a certain degree of homogeneity among pilots, it is much easier to teach and form relatively young and inexperienced pilots than it is to make experienced captains change their way of making decisions.

Me and most of my colleagues treat foreign colleagues with respect and we all believe in their skills (unfortunately there are a handful of exceptions, who I personally consider to be arrogant idiots), nevertheless the concept I've just tried to describe has worked well for Lufthansa in the past and we pilots do not want to see it changed. Personally, I like the idea of having a common seniority list, which gives all Lufthansa pilots (LHI, LCAG & DLH) the chance to apply for all positions the company has to offer. Unfortunately, this proposal was rejected by our managers.

I know that there are other professional airlines like Emirates, who have hired pilots with various backgrounds and these airlines also conduct safe flights. There are hundred ways how to run an airline and Lufthansa Italia will apply the standards, Lufthansa has used for decades.

I hope that there will be a regular exchange between DLH and LHI pilots. It's just the beginning of something new within a well established legacy carrier. Maybe we will be united in the future.

Auguro a tutti Voi tanto successo!

Streetcar driver

what a contract!!!
 

Ok guys, here is the offer:

9 OFF, 2500e if you reach 80 hrs, quite expensive bond.

Command course, DEC? fugget about it

regards
azdriver

Authentic or not??
 

I was browsing through awesome.ie a few days ago and came across a pilots hat do you think this would be authentic ??

Well, they want to "attract" "inexpensive" pilots for LHI.

The people that come up with these "offers" "crunch" employment numbers and obviously believe they can live off "a current pilot surplus" (as ordered by their superiors...)
So they feel they don´t (!!) have to "attract" anyone but rather people will come in droves, lured by the aura of the yellow brand name.

And don´t let them BS you into believing/dreaming you´ll be able to get on the LH-seniority list and fly LH planes from a German aiport under a (better) mainline contract - it´s not planned, envisioned and not wanted because it would be too expensive.

It will be interesting to see what sort of "local" contract the mainline Effos will be offered to train/fly as captains there, during the "initial-growth-phase".

Divide and rule.

Best of luck to anyone applying!!