Don't understand...
 

I fly with a low cost airline and happy as Larry to have a job as a pilot. It's a great job and I earn a descent living. I work hard but before I started flying I worked just as hard.

The classic carrier model is on its way out and it's time we all realize that, and we stop behaving like spoilt little wimps. I get the impression classic airline pilots would like 500-600 hrs a year, more money than their country's prime minister and have nothing but the best hotels and facilities. IMHO, you're spoilt and better stop all the moaning if your companies try to keep the rest at work. There's more people involved than pilots to keep an airline going.
This attitude pisses me off. A friend of me flies LH and he never complained, in fact, he mentioned it's a dream to fly with them. So even a little less would make many mortals utterly happy.

Don't understand....

The so-called 'low cost airlines' are mainly responsible for the erosion of the airline pilot profession. I have nothing but total and utter contempt for them - and for the carrion who fly with such bottom-feeding 'airlines' and who think that €5 tickets to some cow pasture aerodrome in the middle of nowhere is the way ahead.

Good to see LH pilots making a stand for professional standards and quality of service. Long may they continue to do so!

One of these days the bubble will burst for the 'low cost airlines' - hopefully that day won't be too long in coming.

This is not the problem
 

Your problem are guys like me.
My company doesn't pay business class anymore on intra-european flights, even for managers. Because our customers refuse to pay as much for our products as they did in the past. We too need to cut costs in order to survive.
And if I do a short trip with LH on my own, I book a ticket for 99€. I'd never fly with Ryanair nor AB, but I will not accept to pay as much as I did in the past for LH tickets.

LH needs to find a way to earn money under these circumstances. If the staff insists on continuing the old game, the old rules, the company will not survive in the long term. It's as simple as that. Like it or not.

@Beagle

Well said.:ok:

This strike has much more behind than the public/pprune knows.

It's a legal force against outsourcing, LOC and short term profit thinking.

Thank you Swiss Pilots!!!!!!!!!
 

Just heard it in an interview with a representative of the Swiss pilots union, they will not fly as strikebreakers on Lufthansa routes.

A dear Thank You towards the Alps :D:D

Most of the Swiss live north of the Alps, last time I checked...

As sympathetic one can be towards this argument, before it can happen there must be someone offering cheaper products!
The LCCs do so, agreed. But what mainly happened is that to continue generating a slight profit for the sleezy managers, someone had to give up something, someone had to pay the difference between real cost and the too low prices.

It is easy to see that two groups are bleeding for that:
- the employees, mainly pilots who saw their T&Cs eroding dramatically
- the tax payer through subsidies. Mainly on airport fees, but also through heavily underpriced, therefore subsidised aircraft to "save" jobs and politicians elections ....

So the SLFs insulting the pilots on this thread should think twice, or should simply start thinking about how expensive their LCC prices REALLY are, considering everything .....
This would then point the blame to the right direction!
But to ask someone to look for the big picture and to engage his brain seems a lost cause nowadays.

:ok:

go for it LH guys!
Keep up the T&C and save the jobs in the KTV.

H.M.

With all due respect, I think the usual "they're spoilt, now act arrogant and should better shut up"-argument in its various forms forgets a few things about history.

What could be now considered as the "royal treatment" was just standard airline practice before. Then came the sub-standard which now claims the title of the "new world standard". OK, it's all about branding anyway... but is it really what we all want ?

How long before a sub-sub-standard shakes the foundations of the sub-standard and aims for the title of "new global standard" ? And so on... Pointless and endless.

There will always be new blood joining the industry, ready to erode the standards they never knew nor why the standard was like that before. We're all standing on the shoulders of giants (i.e. those who built this industry) but who's teaching the new comers about the wars they never had to fight and the "benefits" they're throwing away now?

Austrian Pilots
 

As well have refused to act as strikebreakers. Thank you very much! :D

A bunch of privileged employees putting up a last stand to defend the indefensible. Period. If they want democracy at LH, then they must logically also ask each and every baggage handler to have the same voice in corporate matters.

What justifies any labour agreement?
 

Funny discussion going on here.

Some are saying: "Go for it, LH jocks!"
Others whine over spoiled brats.
Then there's are some who are going to be stranded due cancelled flights.

But what is the essence here?
Why is any contract value justified (or not)?
Why are there 'low cost carriers' as opposed to high(?) cost carriers?

Here is my personal opinion.
The LH fight is the first of many others over a good labour contract that the EU is going to face. If they win, it is going to be really tough for BA or AF for instance to try to break this tight barrier. But if they loose it's going to be avalanche in EU for all labour agreements. Including the so called 'low cost' contracts, because they too benefit indirectly of higher paying carriers on the Continent.
Job security in EU is the highest in the world. The union strongholds made sure that this prime wish of any labourer was firmly fixed in any contract. The LH fight is mainly about job security. Not only their own jobs security, but also their job remuneration that could result in lost high(er) paid positions in the company. Most probably the ones who already hold top jobs at LH don't have to be afraid of loosing anything.
In other words: jobs would still be there, but the compensation will go South for that position over time. So today when a promotion to a larger type is simply put: more money in the bank that could change over time with the access of lower paid pilots (contracts) on LH flights or aircraft.
For one I must say I agree with the effort of trying to hold on to good conditions. Why? Low cost carriers have gone crazy over the abundance of 'zero timers' on the market having them fly for nothing at all and throwing them out after reaching like 300- 500 flight hours (that depends on airline).
The container of unemployed somewhat experienced pilots is so large that is really scary. They all carry with them an enormous training debt of like €100.000 or greater. And of course feeling being treated unfairly and being envious of LH pilots taking home €250.000 per annum or more.
But isn't the reason of those high salaries that they started flying in the first place? Isn't the high pay in industry the reason why banks still serve pilots with credit for their training? I know it is in some countries in Europe.

Now, having said that, there is, I my humble opinion, some solution in way of labour conditions adjustment that would interest LH board and, at the same time benefit all pilots, including those unemployed with a burden of debt. And that solution is raising retirement age. LH pilots are so expensive because they have a generously low retirement age although law allows them to continue fly through 65. That is costing LH a fortune.
Raising it has the nice side-effect it will affect ALL LH pilots, not only the junior jocks. And, for some of you thinking it might interfere with career options for junior and unemployed pilots when the elder stay longer: think again. The enormous money saved by LH when raising retirement age will allow LH to grow much more effectively (certainly when the crisis is over) against much lower cost and growth will benefit all pilots. Now VC will probably say differently, but for sure all pilots that hold top positions at LH today did not climb the ladder all that much as compared to looking at a huge group of their junior pilots. Simply put: since joining they jumped not more than 500 to 1000 places on their seniority list but saw the junior group multiply in LHs' growth. So growth, not retirement, dictates promotion.

Now any walk-out is bad for publicity, not only for the pilot community, but also for LH brand name. And the solution is so simple really.
Looking at that I regret the strike enormously and hope for wisdom of both parties.

Don't touch the pay, raise retirement age!

SM

well it looks like Swiss pilots have refused to break the strike, Austrian pilots have done the same.

Now, BMI is going to use some of its crews to operate the strike breaking flights, even although it is make 130 pilots redundant at the end of the week - unbelievable ..........

Are the BMI pilots represented by BALPA?

That will be an interesting STAR Alliance meeting on the 18th of March at the IFALPA conference in Marrakech :ouch:

Yup and as usual, are doing bugger all about it!

Some of our guys have LH flights on their rosters for next week, it will be a b****y disgrace if BALPA do not at least try to to do something about it. They won't of course, they never do.

Yes, UK law is a very different animal. BALPA are not responsible for that.

Same here, but even long-haul is scrutinised. I had a trip planned to the Far East and was flying out with LH and back with LX from Dubai. The corporate travel agent called me and informed me that they had to rebook me in line with corporate guidelines and I was flying out and back with EK. The price was almost 30% cheaper. It was disappointing as I much prefer LH/LX and the flight out to Osaka took me considerably longer than originally planned (although being picked up at home with the Limo has its upsides), but I think that to complain would have been a career-limiting move in the current economic climate and the fact that the company I work for recently announced 250 redundancies.

Low Cost Airlines
 

In reply to Beagle, it would appear your head really is firmly fixed in the sand....?

Let me explain, I for one, was of the belief that the whole low cost airline model was just a fad some years ago, and have been proven wrong on an annual basis. Like it or not, these guys have not been "falling out the skies" as predicted by many aviation professionals and after discussing company SOP's and general operating standards with many of their crews over the past couple of years it would appear (much to the annoyance of "legacy" crews) that the cockpit crews of these low cost airlines do a good job....

There has been a "sea change" in the way the fare paying public view air travel these days....let's face it, why for years did we pay £200+ for the likes of BA, LH & Swiss to transport us short haul (less than 2 hours) across Europe???

This "charade" went un-noticed by the flying public for many years (be this ignorance or apathy), but now that the cat is out of the bag, so to speak, the public is no longer tolerant of paying top dollar for prima donna pilots and legacy airline management to get them from a similar (note, I do not say the "same") A to B for a fraction of the cost, without additional risks....

This trend is continuing today, and the sooner the "legacy" guys wake up and realise this is a PERMANENT shift in sentiment by the public, the better....the alternative will be a "slow & lingering death" for the legacy airlines and staff.

My prediction for the next 5 years....BA (and to a lesser extent LH) management will happily sit back and let their crews carry out strike actions, driving these airlines into bankruptcy, so that management can return to "a heroes welcome" (in their warped minds at least) and re-structure these failed legacy carriers....

Let us review these comments again on 20 Feb 2015 my friend and see who is more correct?

As Max Angle has stated on the previous page; flights are appearing on BMI rosters for next week; Is Austrian / Swiss employment law vastly different to the UK? I know none of our pilots relish the idea of operating any of them. Frankly it's embarassing that our (former) 'beloved' leader left the airline in such a bl**dy state whilst pocketing millions himself; now we're being told to bust a dispute on top of all that. It stinks.
For the sake of the profession, even though 'we' (BMI) might be seen as part of the problem, I wish you good luck :ok:

Interesting that you mention Southwest. Their pilots make more than any other legacy carrier narrow body pilots in the US, and yes they are unionized. Low cost does not have to mean poverty T & C's for aircrew as SouthWest has been consistantly profitable for more than 30 yrs, a record no other US airline can come close to. The differenace is highly competant mangement with a long term view and keen appreciation of cost vs value, and a workforce that understands they have to be productive. Sadly most legacy carriers seem to lack both...

Usually, if you want more money or privileges, you argue with the quality of your work. However, in a recent air safety ranking published by www.aerointernational.de (yes, a German site), LH ranks only 19th in terms of safety (and well behind airlines whose pilots are apparently held in disregard by those sitting in LH cockpits).

:ugh:

No one, who actually is in the aviation industry would ever bring up those stupid rankings.

But this one is only for Al Fakim. Do not want to start a discussion about it...


Airline A:

fleet size: 300 aircraft
flights per day: 2000 flights (mostly short range)
Accidents: 2 in the last 60 years (100 fatalities)
0 in the last 15 years
Type of airports 10 % Cat C; 30 % Cat B; 60 % Cat A
Number of destinations: 165

Airline B:

fleet size: 100 aircraft
flights per day: 500 flights (mostly long range)
Accidents: 1 in the last 60 years (30 fatalities)
0 in the last 15 years
Type of airports 12 % Cat C; 22 % Cat B; 66 % Cat A
Number of destinations: 45


Who dares to pick the "safer" airline? Most statistics only consider number of accidents and number of fatalities. In this case Airline B would be "safer".. On the other hand, airline B would have had 4 accidents with 120 fatalities if it would have performed 2000 instead of 500 flights. But maybe it wouldn't have??
Or airline A: If it had only performed 500 flights a day, number of accidents would be 0.5 ( ;) ) with only 25 fatalities. On the other hand, those two accidents might still have happened in the remaining 500 flights?
So, this is just to give you a basic idea, how hard it is to really have a fair statistic on aviation safety. A couple of facts on which airline has the more effective flight safety department (and how do you want to measure it) and so on would further complicate the statistic.

@ Al Fakhem

what a useless post.
Airlines like EY only 6 years old are ranked in front of airlines which last hull loss ist 15 or more years in the past.
The whole jadec safetyrating is a huge load of BS!!

747Guru. That was a good posting. And I believe you are right.

Austrian and Swiss employment law may well be different to the UK's. BALPA have made it clear to the UK arm of the Lufthansa group that if they (BALPA) advise the pilots not to operate flights for Lufthansa, they would be taken to court for encouraging strike action without a valid ballot. Also, if we as pilots, refuse to operate the flights we are in breach of contract and could face dismissal. In any case, by the end of this week, around 70 bmi pilots will get a letter giving them three months notice of being made redundant. If any of those pilots who feel they have nothing to lose refuse on principle to operate a Lufthansa strike-breaking flight I would be mightily impressed.
I'm sure BALPA will have spoken to VC and explained the situation but I would like to make it clear to any Lufthansa pilots reading this that bmi pilots do not want to be operating these flights, BALPA will be taken to court if they encourage us not to fly them and we face dismissal if we refuse individually. It is a horrible situation that none of us want to be in.

That sounds dangerous
 

Sounds like stress. A conflict :E. Do not operate as a flight-crew member in such a condition.... :=

BALPA rep
 

@ EMA on a Sunday, trying to drum up membership at a German owned cargo outfit. Having introduced themselves in the Ops room to steer the guys down. 10 on a course, and one missed two crew op departed. Oh dear, and BALPA by default.

Am I making wrong connections here?

LH pilots forced to take action, since it appears management want to bring in crews and fleet from lower cost subsidiaries. Result, strike action.

Fast forward a few months....

BD pilots forced to take action, since it appears management want to bring in crews and fleet from lower cost subsidiaries. Result, tba...

And there was everybody wondering what LH had in store for bmibaby....

TA

Charly:

I would have no problems sitting a test in advanced statistical methods.

You selectively mention airlines which, indeed, cannot be compared to LH in size, history and mileage.

However, you conveniently do not mention those that easily compare, such as ANA or BA. ANA carries as many pax domestically as LH does internationally, so you can assume they have even more take-offs and landings.

BTW, some journos already talk about the "biggest strike in aviation."

Anyone who knows better?

thx

As studi puts it: We are all bound to our company due to seniority

Management isn't. So Mr Franz and Mr Lauer don’t care about the strike personally. Even if they fail - we will see that happen - there will be a warm place waiting.

The ultimate goal of airline-management is "Lufthansa Germany" (or BA, AF, KLM) reputation with "Lufthansa India" wages and working rules.

The strike is against a kind of "Philippinisation”. Just have a look at the shipping-industry....

Studi
 

Good luck, there are many of us who support what you are doing. :ok:

To all my dear pilot collaegues who oppose our strike...
 

To all my dear pilot collaegues who oppose our strike...

It is always atleast as informative to ask the queastion:" why does somebody tell me a message?" than only listen to the content...

the reason why a reasonable pilot opposes a strike for valid contracts and against erodication of his work, can only be that he has no work to defend!

The work he is doing is not worth to raise his voice, there is no pride that strives one to protect his profession, he sees no future in what he is doing for living....

Only if you dont care about today and dont give a $hit about your future collagues, there is a reason not to stand tall today...

be safe

The most funny thing that a lot of pilots are whining about there declining terms and conditions, let it be at Easy, Emirates, Ryanair, Cargolux or whatever.
Now there is a group of pilots, of course a group which is treated much better than others, protesting against and they are treated like criminal and idiots.
What a strange world we are living in. :ugh:

Frosch :[
You could not have been more right : This has already started in other parts of the airline . A couple of months ago while refueling my single engine in Malta, I saw a large bunch of young Philipinos wearing LH badges walking by. I was told that there were " students" in Aircraft maintenance getting their European EASA accreditations. LH is investing massively in Malta and The Philippines to move away their traditional German maintenance bases.

I fully support what VC is doing because if this does not stop we will be next.

You were totally wrong. What you saw were Philippinos training Maltese new staff, so that the work can stay in Europe.

This is the problem of the majority of the pilots yelling here. They just see something ("being told"), but they do not understand what's behind.

didnt take the time 2 read all the posts here. just wanted 2 give my support 2 LH pilots in their strugle. whish u all the best. If u big guys dont stand 4 your rights, what is there for the rest of us. was about time 2 stop this cicle of declining wages and working conditions in this profession.

FRANKFURT (AP) The union for striking Lufthansa pilots has agreed to suspend their walkout until March 9.

3miles :
Perhaps you are right , but the guys I saw were in their 20s so what you claim does not make much sense. Also looking at LH technick Malta company profile on the web (*) , it indeed says : " MCAST has been instrumental in training young men and women specifically for this industry which just two years ago started, experience-wise " but does not specify which nationality those "young men and women " really are and which contract they will have. Because if they were under German contracts and salaries, the nationality issue would disappear of course.

But , as I am not in the secrets of LH management, I have indeed to rely on what I am told.
And I am also told that currently A330-340 Checks are done in the Philippines and not in Frankfurt. A friend of mine just ferried one there last month.

As to the jobs staying "in Europe" , this is indeed the main issue : Lufthansa technik maintenance staff in Germany are likely to lose their jobs for Maltese ( and probably Philippinos) guys and girls in another part of Europe ( or the world) where the salaries and social conditions are certainly lower than those of current staff in Germany.
This is the main issue.

(*) : Lufthansa Technik Malta: The Company