U.S. Navy EP-3 forced down by Chinese
 

Surely there must be some interest about the top story in the world news -- that of a U.S. Navy EP-3 Airies II spy plane forced down with 24 crewmen aboard after a collision with a Chinese fighter.

The navy plane landed on the Chinese island of Hainan. The Chinese F-8 (Jian-8) apparently went down after the collision.

Both sides blame each other. The American crew reportedly has been isolated. The Chinese reportedly are crawling all over the place gathering information on all the latest in electronic listening devices.

This happened on Sunday. I've searched and searched, but could not find anything on PPRune.

Try the "Military Aircrew" Forum!!

There's a thread on the Mil forum at:

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/For...ML/001414.html

One thought of mine... ok it's a military item, but nevertheless a US aircraft has been involved in a serious, possibly fatal, incident. How can the US possibly take the position that the EP-3 is 'sovereign US territory', not to be touched? Do they expect that the Chinese will carry out no investigation whatever? Surely they have every right to do so...?

OK tounge slightly in cheek there, this is the Chinese, this is realpolitik, but it's still a bloody arrogant thing to say...
I suppose the Americans promptly returned every aircraft that cold-war era defectors flew to the West, intact and uninspected...!

Yeah, right.

Ranger One

Maybe the Dept. of Defense will now decide to give each "interned" EP-3 enlisted crewmember the same per diem as is given to officers, for a change. Or even a nice re-enlistmemt bonus for those at the end of their active duty tour. Or are any in the Navy Reserve etc?

Let's hope that the crewmembers are treated well and their families have excellent support.

I`d like to see the reaction from the US media and population if this was a Chinese spy plane flying on the " edge " of US Domestic Airspace that collided with an American fighter plane......
I thought American forces pilots were trained in formation flying ? ( tongue in cheek ) Cheers

Can some one smarter than me please advise what an EP 3 is, and what is it used for? Thanks people

You can get pictures on the following site:

www.airliners.net

Go to the keyword search bit, type in ep-3, click "civil and military" under it and you'll get some pictures and descriptions of the Orion. Just about any aircraft can be found on this site. I just wish I could get them to accept some of my photos !

Straits Times giving good coverage, including maps and photos:

http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/asi...,34316,00.html

and some other links from the area:

http://www.atimes.com/editor/CD03Ba01.html
http://www.atimes.com/china/CD03Ad02.html

Dubbya was throwing his weight around
in the media again

If I were the chinese I would send the thing back in crates !

NOT THE SAME DUCK -

In 1974, the Russians had a single-seater get lost & land in the Aleutian Islands of Alaska. It was surrounded by a National Guard unit. The crew was catered to, the aircraft was refueled & with a brief diplomatic exchange, allowed to return.

The bad news was that the DEW Line radar never picked it up.

If the roles were reversed in this latest incident, the U.S. would apologize, repair the aircraft and court-martial the unit commander for the interceptor fighters.

SkyDrifter said:
"If the roles were reversed in this latest incident, the U.S. would apologize, repair the aircraft and court-martial the unit commander for the interceptor fighters."

AND they will give medals to the Chinese air-crew for out-standing airmanship as well.

I'd like to make a 50-50 bet that the Chinese F-8 (J-8) interceptor pilot never went down in the drink. The Taiwanese, who were watching all of this on radar, never mentioned that one "blip" went missing after the contact was made.

Also, other sources say that interceptor No. 2 fired accross the EC-3s bow to make it "follow me" to Hainan Island. So what's this bull s*it the Chinese are saying about "illegally" invading their territory.

Tom Clancy could not have put it beeter. The whole incident seems like it was planned, at least to some extent.

Just heard that the Chinese have let the Americans in to speak with their pilots.......

Skydrifter - You may also remember the early 80's case od a Rusiian fighter that defected to Japan. The Russkies asked for the a/c back - the US gave it back....after 4 days during which time they had stripped the a/c down to its component parts, measured, photographed and recorded the same and then rebuilt it.

Lets also not forget the fact that throughout the cold war, various USAF and RAF repeatedly violated USSR airspace (and Im talking about flights OVER towns like Kiev and Minsk not just brief forays into contested airspace). How would you feel if their Bears had overflown Newcastle or Boston?

Me, Im no Sino lover or repecter of their Human Rights record, but I am finding this very amusing.

The Americans of course expect their aircraft to be treated with the same respect that they treated the MiG 25 that defected to Japan a few years ago.

As they say, 'What goes round comes round'. Poetic justice I feel.

As for the 'secrets', they belong to the Chinese in the first place. Its how they are gathered that's making the Americans nervous.

What makes me nervous, is Bush. I bet he knows where China is . . by now.

One of Many,

Poetic Justice?? I'm glad so many of you find this entertaining, You seem to all revel in watching America get pissed on! Sad, Lets see who you expect to help you in your time of need. Don't wait for the Chinese to come......and the other guy who likes to make fun of US pilots who "Cant fly formation" where did you get your formation training at?

Didn't the ruskies dink a Norwegian P-3 a few years ago with a Flanker? The Norwegian aircrew got some goods close formation shots that they released to the world press. any ppruner got a link to them?

In the 50s and 60s, I have read, the Americans, although denying it, had to cross into Soviet or Chinese territory with the Orion to get a feed-back on the defense radar and then hurry back out again. Back then, radar was short range.

The USN and USAF were particularly active in Eastern Russia and also the Baltics, one shot down over Liepaja, Latvia, where recently there was a ceremony honoring the American crewmen who vanished off the face of the Earth, although some residents saw full chutes dropping down.

I wrote a news story about this in the mid-60s and as I remember it involved at least six incidents of U.S. intelligence planes coming in contact with MiG-15s to MiG-19s at the time. Most of those air crews also vanished.

Today, with all the modern equipment, we don't have to cross a nation's border to find out how fast they will respond or what we want to find out.

I firmly believe that the EC-3 was in international waters and this was a set-up by the Chinese. For goodness sake, we all have spy planes. Take a look at your own -- the Nimrod.

Iceland won the fishing war against the U.K. in the 70s, despite the Nimrod.

If anybody has the time, read Seawolf by Patrick Robinson (isbn 0-09-940526-1). The parallel to the ep-3 incident is uncanny. There is a definite bad feeling about this, does Bush (and his Senate) have the expirience to deal with this. I hope the boys and girls on EP-3 had a sledghammer before the chinese got to the aircraft.
Regards to all

Wide

Latvia, our news said last night that since the fifties the US has lost twenty one aircraft and one hundred and thirty four crew to spy missions. I mean lost without a trace. They showed an RB-50, supposedly the first loss, that had been based in either Iran or Turkey.
Wide Body, I think you may be right about President Bush lacking in "international experience." His critics gleefully point that out at every opportunity, but he does have some pretty heavy hitters to call upon. Powell and Cheney come to mind.
One other thing the Chinese should also keep in the back of their minds. They want to join the WTO and they want to hold the 2008 Olympics. They'll do neither without US agreement.

[This message has been edited by pigboat (edited 03 April 2001).]

I'm just curious, are you british by any chance jealous of us "americans"??

Seems like you all support the communists to the final draw.

It's tough being the best I guess

Hi KK
I'm not envious of the Americans, I used to work with some of their Finest tactitians in the world. As for being the best I'll settle for being numerically superior. I hope the USA get back there 24 crew and their aircraft. I just hope Cheney and Powell keep their boss at arms length. I do not belive the Chinese will miss the opportunity to give the Orion (sorry Aires II)a good look over.
regards to all

wide

[This message has been edited by Wide-Body (edited 03 April 2001).]

REALITY CHECK -

I was raised next to a DEW Line fighter base. All are correct on the can-and-mouse-aircraft spy games. The aircraft actually shot down are still highly secret, but there is no reason to think that there were not losses.

In contrast, that was the infamous 'cold war;' we didn't have Russia as a 'most favored' trading partner.

I'll bet Clinton could make a couple of phone calls & get aircraft & crew released; they owe him - big time. Or; is the other way around? {:-))

Good job it wasn't an RC-135!

The EP-3E is at least less sensitive than that.

Despite being a Brit, I'm sad to see the loss, but have to say that when the roles have been reversed, Eastern Bloc aircraft have been fair game for examination and even dismantling (read the account of the Firebar which went down in Lake Havel in Wright's Spycatcher, let alone the MiG-25 in Japan!). If the EP-3E is handed back at all, it will only be after its equipment has been minutely examined (quite possibly by China's allies) and in the warped code of etiquette that surrounds the aerial espionage game, that's fair enough, and the US Govt and people should stop whining about it.

What is disgraceful, and what goes against the rules is the continued use of the crew as hostages, and I have every sympathy for every American who has been angered by their treatment. I hope they're home soon.

Considering the aggresive intercepts, as reported by the DOD in the weeks before this sad accident, maybe it was a matter of time before an inexperienced or over-aggressive Chinese pilot would make a mistake and possibly misjudge his closure rate.

Don't believe I've done formation flying at night. It might be a bit risky to aggresively approach another aircraft at night, is it not? Is it very possible that the EP-3 made a gentle turn into the other plane, in order to turn further away from hostile airspace, maybe not being aware of it in the darkness?

Do Chinese and other interceptor jets keep their position and beacon lights on during intercepts with suspicious aircraft? On airliners these are mostly red and green lights? We switch on nacele and floodlights below 10,000' and these are white. A few of the planes in a specific fleet type here have white strobe lights. Were any crewmembers required to stare out a window for any approaching fighters? Whether that was the case or not, then smoothly rolling into a 20 degree bank into the (unseen, dark) the F-8 fighter could produce a collision? Or is this very unlikely?

Would any tactical jet pilots care to comment? Former Pres. Clinton might have punished the Navy EP-3 Squadron CO and Wing Commander for having angered his Chinese buddies.

Many posts have mentioned the incidents where Soviet crews defected with their aircraft and compared them with this situation. Interesting, an aircrew flying in International airspace is intercepted, apparently rammed, forced down against their will and somehow this is the same? The word piracy seems to fit this situation well.

INTERNATIONAL COURTESY -

The reality is that there is no way China could determine the factual case, in the given time frame, if the P-3 HAD tried to cause the collision. Radar isn't that good & the injured pilot would have been too busy to account, while the first aircraft couldn't have seen the event. Thus, the rhetoric & propaganda are evident, but expected.

It is clear, however that the P-3 didn't have the airspeed to have achieved the damage against the fighter, if it had been either an accidental or deliberate act on his part.

Therefore, it is appropriate to honor the emergency nature of the event & let the aircraft & crew go.

If the reports of increasingly close intercepts are true, there is a certain amount of egg on the Navy's part for continuing to send aircraft into a known threat arena, unescorted.

Given China's increasing missile capability, there may be a legitimate need for the intelligence gathering.

Ignition Override, unless you're formating on something with bright electroluminescent strip lights or similar, night form can be pretty hairy - quite difficult to judge closure rates, and easy to end up dangerously out of position if you're not on the ball. Certainly not the place for aggressive flying!

Completely concur Mr H.

Night intercepts and VIDs can be quite testing on a black night with no horizon and a bit of IMC around. Likely as not everyone would have been flying around with lights off just to make it difficult for the other side!

Even with the use of radar and a good HUD the manoeuvre can be very disorientating and requires a high degree of concentration.

ES

------------------
Sleep after toil,
Port after stormy seas,
Ease after war,
Death after life does greatly please.

While I acknowledge that the chinese will look over what is left of the aircraft in minute detail, and may not even give it back, that is how the game is played. (Usually with an enemy, though, not a most favored nation. But apparently the chinese want to be considered an enemy) I do not think that a delay of even 1 second in releasing the crew was acceptable. Holding the crew hostage is a such an outrage, I can't even begin to describe it.

As a result, We should instantly recognize Taiwan and sell em whatever they want. No holding back.

Cheers
Wino

For a picture of the EP-3 on the ground in Hainan click here


[This message has been edited by Drop and Stop (edited 04 April 2001).]

And so it is definitely true that the collision happened at night, or sometime between sunset and sunrise?

As a possible background for over-aggressive fighter pilots, today's April 3rd "Wall Street Journal" has an interesting article about the factions, nationalistic and others, struggling for future control over the Red Chinese government. At least one strong faction supposedly prefers aggresive military tactics towards any strong foreign influences in East Asia.

Are there pilots out in PpruneLand who actually believe that an EP-3 or any other derivative of an airline design (the Lockheed L-188, "Electra) can be very maneuverable, compared to a fighter?! Who could be so ignorant?

[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 04 April 2001).]

>>I'll bet Clinton could make a couple of phone calls & get aircraft & crew released; they owe him - big time. Or; is the other way around? {:-))<<

Correction: Those secrets that he sold for soft campaign contributions were paid for by U.S. tax payers, so they owe us big time.

In light of recent agressive intercepts, somebody screwed the pooch for sending these guys out unescorted.

Not immediately releasing our crewmembers is an unforgivable sin. I think a reasonable rescue mission with a few aircraft carriers off the coast of Hainan and a half-dozen loaded B52s overhead China might influence them to let our people go. Afterwards, we should end trade with the bastards. (I'm sure we can buy slinkies and rubber dog shlt from somebody else for just pennies more)
We will soon see if Bush has the balls to force them to give up the hostages or if he's gonna let other countries push us around as our most recent presidents have. How long would we wait to do something if a politician's son or daughter were one of these crewmembers?

The word filtering out (from a Jane's Defence internal source) is that they ditched the crypto books, prayerwheels, handhelds but were unable to dump or destroy any significant amount of the more sensitive hardware (a de-racking problemo)due to short time available. Mission-stored data was deleted but programs were not. With two engines out on one side I guess they weren't too keen on slowing and opening the cabin door either.

With all the juicy mobile and e-mail eavesdropping they must have been distracted from airmanship skills .....like LOOK OUT!

Remember the USS Pueblo? The North Koreans took it in 1968 and held the crew for a year, treating them very badly. They still have the ship, by all accounts.

I know this sounds stupid, and I wouldn't have done it but why didn't they ditch the aircraft in the sea? A couple of days in the salt water would have done the electrics/computers the world of good

Latvia, Hainan Island is roughly 1000K from Taiwan. Where did you get the information about Taiwanese radar surveillance of this incident?

Roc

I did 24 years in the RAF doing 'stupid' stuff.

If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

I get the drift that you know we have/do this stuff for years. The crime is getting caught.

400Skipper. As far as I know, China aren't (yet) enemies of the USA. Perhaps the crew thought that torching a $100,000,000 aircraft might not be a great idea as they could expect to get it back at some stage.