I regularly drink and drive.Let me qualify that,I have either two pints of 3.6% beer or a half bottle of wine with a full meal over a three hour period. Given my size (6'2 16stone) that most likely means that when I drive I am around half the 80mg limit,leaving a large margin for error.

When I drive in this condition I am aware that I am judgement impaired.This doesn't mean dangerous because on those occasions I drive more slowly and carefully and am aware of my lower limitations.

I have taken part in competitive motorsport.If I took to a racetrack in this condition I would be unable to replicate my cold sober performance.I would either have to settle for two or three seconda a lap slower or I would make an error and spin off.

Flying isn't the same.If you try to drink and fly there is a very good chance that something much worse will happen.20mg is sensible as long as you leave that same margin for error,effectively half a pint or a small glass of wine or a single measure.

Some number of years ago I worked for the met dealing with driving offences, including drink drive. We had the old intoximeter in the station, and one lunch we went to the pub (as norm) and after 2 pints of the black stuff (4.1%) came back and did the test. It went straight to green, so therefore I will drink 1-2 pints of equivilant and drive. If the law was zero,then I wouldn't touch a drop. I spoke to a retired chap a few weeks ago who was involved in this drink fly issue with his old company. He said that the 20mg was the limit, but that is the lowest reading the machine can register. Could anyone tell me if that's correct?

Now where have I seen that before? Could it perhaps have been in this thread? :rolleyes:

I will sound ike a killoy - which I am not. But the message here is simple.

If your job depends on it , why get into that grey area between zero and just under the limit? Duty rosters are such that you do get plenty of down time when you can enjoy a drink along with your mates. But, if you can't plan ahead sufficiently well as to avoid reporting for duty with any alcohol in your bloodstream then you either have a problem or you don't care.

Actually, in 99% of cases I would expect most professionals to demonstrate capability to fly an aircraft even when over the limit and at the limit for driving - albeit impaired. This doen't justify anything.

If you are being paid for your professional skills and judgement then please don't expect any leeway if you turn up with these abilities in any way impaired through use of alcohol or drugs. It is not fair to anyone else.

Hopefully this is urban myth but I heard a story about a senior F/O who had a night on the tiles in HK. His crew had to smuggle him onboard the next day and he didn't actually 'surface' until the flight was airborne - I hope these days are well in the past and doubt that such nonsense could (if it ever actually did) occur again now.

ichenel

Just how much of this thread did you read before posting? How much research did you do? Any? None? The last page?

There are a number of reasons why a zero limit is not applied and none of them so that we who fly for a living can have a quick snort before putting the uniform on. Uninformed rants and calls for hanging contribute nothing and annoy those of us with a real interest (not to mention the moderators).

The wannabee section is thataway >>>>>

Ichinel...........I think you need a drink or....................ten. Loosen up mate and go and get laid. It seems this is what your self rightousness needs. Blow your nose by the way !!

Good Gracious me !! What a load of pontifying old farts on this site.
yeah, some guys get caught the hand in the ...pint and that's not what I would recommend doing but remember this bearded guy some 2000 years ago...................he who hasn't sinned.............bla bla bla.
I absolutly resent selg rightous little punks like you whith experience close to........well zippo stranded on some God forsaken lump of sand who feel they can voice this kind of black and white idea. How much does your experience weigh in comparison to this guy's ??? Feather light mate !!
Try to build up some hours on a real aircraft and then have a say.
Whatever the reason, when one day where, let's hope not, you've made it flying big planks and feel the cold of the blade on your neck cuz you've screwed the pooch. You might want to reconsider then !!

Me Myself, sorry to point this out, but with every post like the one you wrote, you just erode what little respect anyone has left for your profession. Act like a professional. Behave like a professional. Write and speak like a professional.

I guess you're the same person who moans about your poor terms and conditions on another thread. Until you can see the total hypocrisy in your views, you will get nowhere. And here you are defending Mr UA given his wondrous "experience"! Well, I think a bit of good judgement might have been helpful, don't you? Clearly, the sensationalist previous post touched a nerve!

The easiest and best way for pilots and FAA is to standardise the alcohol limit worldwide. Once all airlines and pilots are made aware there wouldn't have to play the guessing game. It can be very difficult for airline crew to sleep/rest with the different time zones that they have to fly to.

I know a bit about this as I work in a court that serves a large airport and I have seen similar cases. The case was sent to the Crown Court because the usual starting point is about 12 months custody, which is beyond JPs' powers. The pilot concerned got off towards the lighter end of the scale for reasons that I can't comment on, but I must confess to surprise at the name of the judge concerned as he is known for dishing out stiff sentences. I have seen him give someone nine years for a failed handbag snatch.

Just to clarify something, the breath testing machines in police stations are not legally calibrated for the very low aviation limit, so suspects are always given a blood test and bailed to return later when the results have come back.

Unwell Raptor From where do you get the 12 months figure? :confused:FL

Myself, I note that Brahms was well into composing the second movement of his great Requim at the age of 21. Liszt, was 21 when he met Pagannini and began his brilliant career as a pianist and composer.

Brahms and Liszt have a lot to answer for!

For those of you whose first language is not English, i.e. Americans, Ozzies, etc, the above mentioned are Cockney rhyming slang for 'pissed', meaning drunk.

Why do the elderly so despise the young?

FL;

No inconsistency, I think. The starting point (per a judge at Isleworth) of 12 months, less a third off for a guilty plea, and a bit more for personal mitigation will fit with the cases you mention.
CPS submissions and our Clerk's advice are invariably to send these cases up.

As for the quoted suggestion that these cases cause excitement on the lay bench, how does Flash8 think we reacted to an alleged contract killer we saw the other day, who faces eight charges including murder and firearms offences? Of course it was just another case to be dealt with by the book, and it took less than five minutes.

I haven't read all of this but I suggest those of us who have been in the sureal world of long haul aviation and thus know what we are talking about keep talking and the rest shut up.

And while I'm at it, I can't think of anyone less qualified to asses something of this nature than a professional judicial officer.

And you drop here, not even having read the thread and start giving orders? Professional with drinking problems are on all type of professions.

And, of course, you are qualified to make such statement!:ugh::ugh:

Unwell_Raptor Thank you for clarifying what you meant.

My concern was that you previously said "the usual starting point is about 12 months custody".
That may well be the usual starting point of 'a judge at Isleworth' but it is not the same thing as being the usual starting point and, as originally posted, inadvertently gave the misleading impression that there is some 'official' starting point.

The sentences I mentioned all came from items posted on PPRuNe. As far as I'm aware, together with the sentence imposed in the case which began this thread - 6 months suspended - they are all the sentences imposed upon pilots in the UK to date.


FL

Well, I have a 'few' real hours.

I have no tolerance for drinking and flying. Alcohol is not a bitching betty problem- it's a real issue in the profession.

I did not say it was acceptable to drink six pints and fly the next day, i said that six pints is not alot on a night out.

It is not acceptable to fly the next day after a night out drinking, I thought I made that view quite clear in the tone of my post.

Wether or not 6 pints is a lot on a night out depends who you are. A 33cl bottle of Tiger and 1/2 bottle of wine is more than enough for me. Even when I was drinking a lot, 4 points was enough. 6 pints (unless alcohol-free beer which IMHO is a pointless product) probably qualifies as a binge as well.

I make that 10 pages now. Can you all stop now and wait for the next "occurence", please?:D

Ripline

Ripline, you are not forced to read this thread if you do not wish to.

Perfect people who pontificate upon the inadequacies of the majority in a profession or the population at large do nothing to help those who may have problems.

This aviation industry has a better-than-most way of dealing with those who fail standards far beyond the many other vitally important occupations. Hopefully we do so productively and effectively.

Every time a clever devil comes along belittling the minority of those with problems actually drives them underground. Thank you ripline for your contribution?

Understood, thanks.

I'm not perfect, don't claim to be and I wasn't pontificating or passing judgement.

I'm glad to hear that. That's probably why I continue to use its services.

Not claiming to be clever, not belittling anybody. Perhaps you're confusing my simple one-line post quoting and agreement with a previous poster by overreacting, another trait I would watch if you're a pilot. Fully behind any efforts to identify and help those who sucumb to the pressures of commercial avaition by using alcohol, but the basic tenet is that any discussion of how much is safe before flying is a no-brainer. It has taken ten pages of posts from all sides of the same argument to get this far as indeed it does on every occasion that news items like this hit the headlines. The arguments are the same and just revolve endlessly. If this thread has stopped at 10 pages then my tiny personality and small body parts are content with their contribution. I do appreciate the irony of having to add this by way of explanation....

Ripline

get a clue
 

Have you ever done an over water plus go 8 hours - time zones and maybe just maybe wanted to have a beer to help you get to sleep. I think no you havn't. I have and it is a B..ch. We as professional pilots no the rules and are so happy that locals are keeping us legal.

Ripline, here´s the next occurrence for you:

Pilot 'marched off flight to Canada and arrested for being over drink limit' - Telegraph

Am I the only one "impressed" :hmm: :rolleyes: with the enhanced powers of observation being displayed by security staff these days ?
The level of alcohol involved in many of these cases would require deliberate and intrusive personal contact to be perceived methinks.
Of course the nasty vindictive jealous little jobsworth gobsh1tes employed in this `profession must be jumping up and down in glee at every one they shop with the equivalent of a half pint in their bloodstream.
I would hate to think it was distracting them from their primary task of avoiding the carriage of lethal toothpaste or mineral water. :ugh: