Wikipedia is your friend...
 

According to Wikipedia, "drug" is a bit vaguely defined. You have stuff ranging from the humble aspirin to all these modern antibiotics: medicinal drugs.

When it comes to aviation many people are surprised to find that many medicinal drugs are illegal! The drug puts you in a condition of unfitness to fly, simply put.

Then we come to the fun stuff: recreational drugs. Some of the really enjoyable ones are unfortunately illegal, which does seem rather a shame. Okay, cannabis can rot your brain and ecstasy (MDMA) turn you into a vegetable but... So the nanny state tries to save us from ourselves by making them illegal. As far as I know there's no rehab program for cannabis users who are pilots but I could be wrong about that. As to ecstasy there was just a report published about a PPL who took some and then went flying, killing himself and his young passenger.

Alcohol is a legal recreational drug but not everywhere and always. Plus there are usually limits to its use so that simply taking too much can see you arrested.

Alcohol is also a poison, hence the term "intoxicated". which literally means "having ingested poison". Every so often we get to read about someone who checks out after proving that he can "chug" a quart of vodka. That puts the body into a footrace between nausea (a protective reflex) and death from alcohol poisoning. Usually our hero barfs all over himself before passing out, to general merriment and no one permanently the worse off but every so often the alcohol is kept down to command a general shut-down of first higher brain functions but later all those boring things such as breathing that keep us alive.

Alcoholism is accepted nowadays as a disease with stages and one "marker" can be alcohol tolerance. Basically a heavy drinker can drink more and, while still impaired, function better than a non-drinker with the same blood alcohol level. In the terminal stage of the disease alcohol is necessary for proper functioning; this is when you get the snakes crawling up the walls and the "shakes" until that first drink to start the day with.

I knew a guy who could put away a quart of Scotch an evening but do a pretty good job of flying the next morning early. He still lost his job, though. It was just that in those days and in that environment we had all been trained to look the other way for the most part. I tried to intervene but got nowhere with him.

In an ideal world, like the one dreamed of by the Nazis, anyone with a disability would be quietly done away with so that we would have a godlike general population. Instead we try to find ways of allowing people with flaws, and that includes most of us beyond a certain age, to still work and contribute to society, including alcoholics.

An odd thing is that you can end up flying again but you will still be an alcoholic, just one who doesn't drink! (Think of it this way: I am a raging heterosexual but that doesn't mean I am going to have sex during the flight. I have learned to control my male urge, always present, to have sex.) There are ways to try and teach people to control the urge to drink as well that have been proven to be effective. The rationale is that it is much better, much safer in the long run, to have rehabilitation programs in place if the alternative is a pilot hiding his problem and going untreated.

Everytime there is an incident like this one you will get a typical response from some that anyone with a drink problem should be tossed out of aviation without a second thought. The funny thing is, I usually imagine that same sort of responder then having another snort before going on to fulminate about the next social problem that shows up on his screen, homosexuals allowed to marry and adopt children, perhaps. At best that's just nostalgia for an age when we went for simple solutions and kept problems decently out of sight. "Times have changed and we must change with them." Well, that is what my 19 year-old daughter keeps telling me, anyway!

Another case
 

And it is sad. Maybe just bad luck or judgement. One drink too many? Let's suppose the guy went to the pub at night around 4pm and left around 11pm, in order to have 0.06% BAC at 9 am he would have to drink about 7 pints of beer (thats about 14 bottles) :eek: That doesn't make any sense.

A good way is to calculate when to stop drinking, 12 hours is not always enough.

Can anyone tell me which aviation accidents have been attributed to alcohol?

Yes, I can! A colleague managed to fly into the mountain after having a glass. The fact that he was pretty fast made it impossible to find any substances in what was left....

that sound terrible hahn


I wish someone would have heleped him with his problem before hand

Very good post indeed.

I don´t drink alcohol at all, after being close to become an addict. I have been run over by a drunk car driver when I was 16 and spent 7 weeks in hospital as a result. So I´m not in favor of in toxicated people. However we have to face the fact that they are ill.

On a side note: I spent a few overnights in the UK and given the amount of drunk people (especially youngsters) one can see there, I just wonder where they get enough sober ones to take blood samples in the morning. Heavy flat rate drinking is a huge problem for emergency services in my country these days. Time to rethink our position on alcohol. A zero tolerance also in cars is about time IMO.

I often wonder if we'd have won WWII if there were alcohol testing then ?

From the numerous books I've read those true heroes lived very much in a drinking culture. The beer was diluted though !

What part is wrong in what I wrote?
 

I don't think I am taking this problem lightly, just writing that nowadays it is handled in a surprisingly different way.

As to where I was in this, either a problem child or else a pious by-stander, I can call witnesses if I need to (they hang out on a forum nearby) but let's just say that I do know what I am writing about!

My teen-age daughter is at that happy stage of development where alcohol is still a delightful recreational drug; none of her friends have had time to develop a problem with it, I guess. (There was that kid from the village who hit a tree head-on, yeah, but he wasn't in her circle so that one doesn't count.) Sometimes I find myself telling her to take it easy, which she finds ever so laughable coming from someone she only knows as a non-drinker.

Here I guess I am just trying to show people looking in from the outside how aviation is trying to deal with alcohol abuse in a way that is humane but also protective of the traveling public. Take it or leave it.

As an aside: I lived in the East End of London, just off Mile End Road for about eight months. One quickly learned to stay off that main drag when the pubs were emptying after a big footie match had been shown! "Staggering, pugnaciously drunk" seemed to be the normal default mode then for the native Brits on show. My God! At least the drunks in Helsinki usually just lay there quietly so that tripping over them is the only risk.

Is it not true that the effects of alcohol are more pronounced at higher altitudes? There's less oxygen in the air and thus in the bloodstream, therefore reducing the amount of oxygen reaching the brain in much the same way that alcohol does. That's why people suffering asphyxiation due to decompression (or whatever) usually act like they're drunk.

3 shots of vodka are usually enough to knock me out completely for a whole transatlantic flight. Judging by some of my own hangovers I would say a 36 hour "bottle to throttle" rule should apply. You're risking potentially thousands of lives in the plane and on the ground.

I'm surprised none of this has been mentioned yet. Then again one doesn't know where to begin disputing Old Lizzy's nonsense.

In response to PanPanYourself, the problem at altitude is that the affinity between haemoglobin and alcohol is higher than that between haemoglobin and oxygen, so alcohol and altitude are a poor mixture and can exacerbate altitude sickness problems as you suffer from a proportionately lower level of oxygen in your bloodstream than you would sober at the same altitude. I used to work regularly at 14000' (Mauna Kea) and would avoid alcohol for at least 9 hours before going to the summit.

The limit is the limit is the limit. There is no excuse for being over the limit. In this case it would have taken 4 more hours to be under the limit, thats half again the 8 hour rule!!!

I suspect that this is a case of last nights alcohol not cleared, the 1 hour 1 unit is only a guideline as food, excercise, sweating in a sauna etc all have effects but if he has had 8 hours off that is 8 units (approx) metabolised which is 4 pints plus another 4 units not metabolised thats 6 pints of medium strength beer.

I know that this thread is filled with "tee totallers" which I find highly unlikely, I have never met a tee total pilot ever, so lets be honest, 6 pints on a night out is not a huge amount. Some wouldn't even be visably drunk on that. Way way too over the limit to drive and definately too much if you are flying early the next day.

We all like a nightstop , a bit of a room party with the cabin crew, it is one of the perks of the job but as someone said earlier the 8 hour rule alone is not enough. Work out how much is legal then add a couple of hours on to be sure, I know of one airline that has a 10 hour rule others that are 12 hours, all depend on moderation of course. In this case another 4 hours (12 total) probably would have seen him under the limit. Not saying that he would be fit to fly , fatigue wise etc though.

If crews see the 8 hours as a target almost, ie drink up to 8 hours and stop that won't save your bacon.

Having said that 48 hours is ridiculous, drinking alcohol in moderation while strictly obeying the limits is not a crime.

NSYNK
 

Nice to make your acquaintance.

NSYNK

An incorrect statement and a very dangerous assumption if anyone decides they want to try to calculate when they will be safe to fly or drive.

Exercise, cold showers, coffee, food taken before, during or after alcohol intake does not affect the volume of alcohol in the bloodstream, or the reduction of it.

Alcohol will leave an individuals body at roughly 1 unit per hour, the exact figure fluctuates but depends on the individual. You cannot eat or exercise it out... those activities may make you feel better or more 'with it', but they do not get rid of the alcohol.

In fact it could be argued that if you have a large meal, your body is less capable of getting rid of alcohol efficiently as it is also having to digest a meal...

Anyone who is considering trying to calculate how long it will take them to clear their system should be very cautious.

Alcohol starts to disspipate as soon as you start driniking it, so even as you drink, you will be getting rid of some units. 1 unit per hour is a good base to work from, but don't try to work out to the nearest 20 mins or so when you will be 'safe'.

Use the 1 unit per hour rule and give yourself an added 2 or 3 hours just to be (more) sure.

It isn't? You could have fooled me. I like a drink, but it would be a glass or two of wine, not a gut-bust of beer. And I don't mean a couple of 350ml glasses of wine either, I mean a couple of small glasses.

6 pints not that much?
 

Sorry, I am not a teetotaler, and I also think we should have a couple of beers in the nightstops. If you would change the drinking limit to 24 or 36 hours in my airline there would be no more beer.
But 6 pints is almost 12 beers/units, you will need more than 12 hours to burn it off. I think 8-9 beers/units and stop drinking 12 hours before will just about clear you to be 0% at check-in. :eek:

thank god for polo mints and fishermen's friends!

There is a lot of rubbish on this thread, mostly from self-opinionated, ill-informed half-wits...(did I miss anyone?).

But, I must say that I enjoyed the sanity espoused by the intelligent and thought-provoking posts from chuks.

Maybe I'm getting old. After six pints I would have a seriously fuzzy head and be reaching for the ibuprofen. Fly an aircraft after that? I don't think I would even walk the dog. :eek:

PS. Lizzy, I quite like the UK's "idiotic" regulations and am left thinking I would prefer the FAA's "even more idiotic" regulations.

Yeah so I was doing a bit of a wind up and judging by all the juvenile name calling behind anonymous "handles" I hit the mark. Some interesting comments though, especially the ones that use feeble logic to deduce I am in Americashire. (Sorry George III you have a lot to answer for when I get to meet you)

I don't condone the slightest amount of alcohol in the cockpit, or for that matter, behind the wheel. I am amazed though that I can be jailed for being at an alcohol level that does not permit me to drive a bus, but I would not even get a ticket if I were registering the same level in a car; and yes, I think the alcohol level for driving should be lower, with greater penalties in England - perhaps a look at the Norwegian way of handling DUI...... But the local authorities seem to be too busy spending my taxes checking to see if my garbage can is properly closed....we need more revenues to pay for all this oversight. :eek:

It's been raining cats and dogs here, and I am sadly grounded.....probably best to head for a cuppla beeeahs; mind you I live next door to my local, which is a very good thing. :}

Thanks boys! :ok:

Liz

How fascinating... A troll who proudly outs himself! Is there anything else you would like to share with your rapt on-line audience?

Of course the title of the thread was a bit of a give-away. Next time better start by looking up "subtlety" in a dictionary.

I always wondered about this sort of thing, were these folks so desperately bored that they would find trolling worth doing? I guess so, odd as that seems.

Well, cheer up! I hear that they are going to re-make "Crossroads" That Benny, what a hoot! Meanwhile, yes, have a pint or two or three while you think up your next subtle on-line post.

I need a drink
 

I have been indulging in the posts, (pun), and am amazed at the variety of views.:eek: Not having been there, this individual obviously showed signs that brought attention to the fact he may have been drinking. A check was then carried out, and it appeared that traces of alchohol were present. If I drink, and then fly an aircraft, or drive a car, I am aware,that if caught, I will be punished. Remember the old 'responsibility for one's actions'??:ok:
Pilots everyday turn up for work, following the code of zero tolerance with alcohol. I am sure some turn up with higher levels within the bloodsteam, and take the chance. As always the preverbial s*** will hit the fan when caught out. Thats life.

So obvious that I think you'll find he was 'outed' several pages ago. Post #65 or thereabouts.


Cue lots of those who fell for it posting "I knew it!" :rolleyes:

One Assigns
 

Too much notice to Lizzy. Troll or no, the discussion about safety is worthwhile. An occasional look and debate about something so important is always beneficial, IMO. Out of the Mouths of babes.....

AF

I am with AFM, above. I replied to the stuff I thought worth replying to. Alcohol abuse used to be one of my very favourite pastimes, you see.

What I thought of the fellow who put up the original thread didn't come into that. To start with "idiotically low" did sort of look like bait, yes... That doesn't mean I need to snap at that, does it?

UK Basher
 

Wombat before you decide what airline to fly on you should check safety records. I believe you will find the USA has the best record in the world.

I am one. And I´m a pilot for 19 years now. Sorry to spoil it.

Consider a general enzyme catalyzed reaction:

E +S -----> ES------->P

the rate of an enzyme catalyzed reaction is dependent only on the enzyme [alcohol dehydrogenase]concentration NOT on the substrate [ethanol--I hope:\]
this is because most of of the substrate is bound in a rate limiting ES complex and there for only enzyme concentration determines the decomposition rate therefor the reaction is ZERO order in Substrate and first order in enzyme;

Zero order mean that the rate is independent of concentration and first order mean that if you double the Enzyme concentration you'll double the rate:


Since the amount of this enzyme made by the liver is dependent on genetics it is true that individuals may have slightly quicker decomposition because they produce more enzyme but the how fast you process a certain amount of alcohol does not depend on the amount of alcohol consumed only time; this myth arises from confusion about the above fact..:8

PA

Here is a blood alcohol calculator in excel - click the link and if you have Excel on your machine, it should open. Otherwise right-click the link, and save as:
bac.xls

It is pretty useful for all crew (and SLF) if you're on a trip because even if you are a little dis-orientated from time zone changes, it'll give you a good calculation of bac without having to rely on judgment. Remember that the graph is % blood alcohol, which is not the UK ** mg of alcohol per 100ml of blood.

Playing with the calculator, I can see how the ".. hours bottle to throttle" fits the reality of a 0.02% alcohol limit. For a 70kg person (since weight makes a difference):
Couple of beers = 8 hours
Bottle of wine = 12 hours
2 bottles of wine = 24 hours

For a 105kg person (since weight makes a difference):
Bottle of wine = 8 hours
2 bottles of wine = 16 hours
crate of beer @ 3/hr over 8 hours = 24 hours and probably violently ill

The self righteous ****e on here indicates that not many are actually in the business.
Crews drink on nightstops..fact. Some kick the arse out of it some dont.He did , and is punished end of discussion.
Stop the preaching bolox.
Id rather have had a pint too many (and be about 60mg) than try and avoid errors induced by a 100am report followed by a 15 hrs ulr flight followed by an MEl ridden aircraft approach to minimums , barely current, but cost effective.I know which one screws me up the most.
Not to appreciate that distinction indicates that most on here are opinionated spotters or evangalistic industry geeks.

Pilots who never drink alcohol worry me. Flying is often a stressing occupation. After a flight the stress needs to be dissipated somehow. Some of the most stressful pilots to fly with are those who really never touch a drop.
We have to be reasonable in our intake of alcohol. Moderation in all things!
An effective alternative for stress removal, transcendental meditation, may attract even more adverse comment from the zealots on this thread.

Exaviator!

With today's stewardesses you'll have to do 1 or 2 in order to enjoy 3. :*

Alcohol does improve some abilities
 

Michale Birbeck wroteIn fact alcohol is a banned drug in a number of sports because it improves performance. The effect is on fine muscle control and is of benefit in sports like rifle shooting and archery.

Larger quantities impair judgment and gross motor controls, but for small quantities i.e. a glass of wine or beer - you will be a more precise operator of any equipment requiring delicate manipulation. However, I guess this doesn't include most aircraft control functions...

On the same theme, caffeine is also a banned drug in many sports. It reduces reaction time at the expense of precision. Caffeine is banned in sports like fencing because of the advantage it gives. However caffeine doesn't seem to be useful for aircraft control - and may even be harmful.

Yeah, right...I for one beat copilots to get rid of the stress.

Your advice is most likely a sound one, next time I fly 8 legs on a single day, I´ll help myself to a pint between every leg and I´m sure I will be grinning (aka stressfree) at the end of the day! :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

And don´t tell me one pint a leg is not moderate.

Morale and punch drunk First Officers.
 

His Dudeness

El duderino, I guess your approach is the basis for that old saying that the beatings will stop when morale improves. :p

Alcohol does improve some abilities
 

Mahatma Kote

You are right but I guess I was thinking of ball games. :).

Question is how much alcohol is just enough before it all goes pear shaped . Very little.

Nahatma Kota wrote:
Remember the Canadian snooker player Bill Werbeniuk who was alleged to get tax relief on his lager purchases, necessary to settle a benign tremor which affected his playing?

Shouldn't the title of this thread be "idiotic UA pilot falls foul of low UK alcohol law"?

Quite frankly I am starting to lament the fact that I have to regularly leave my fate in the hands of the pilots on this forum. If it's so damn stressful that you can't handle it without drinking then you need to find yourself a new career. There are plenty of alternative ways of relieving stress that don't impair your reaction times. In aviation reacting half a second late can be the difference between life and death for you and thousands of innocent people. The large majority of aviation disasters are caused by pilot error, I would suggest all pilots keep that in mind every time they get in the cockpit. 3/4 of the drink drive limit is far too much, especially bearing in mind the more pronounced effect of alcohol at 8000ft cabin altitude. This guy should have gone to jail for reckless endangerment, full stop end of story.

How much is too much ?
 

Michael Birbeck wrote

Actually, and I speak with some authority here as a former QA tester and medical subject for breath screening devices (retd.), you'd be surprised.

In the units I am familiar with - % blood alcohol - The figures are typically, 0.05% for a basic infringement and 0.08% for a serious infringement.

For most people, 0.05% seems 'O.K.' and you think you are still able to drive, while with 0.08% you know you are definitely not safe to drive.

I guess here, but perhaps 2-3 pints will get you to 0.05% BAC. A lot depends on your body mass, fat composition, strength of beer, and time to ingest.

Studies have shown that for BAC of 0.05% you are as likely to have an accident as if you have drunk nothing at all. More surprising a BAC somewhere between 0.00% and 0.05% has less probability of an accident than driving tee-total. After 0.05% it all goes pear shaped.

Now these figures are based on accidents using motor vehicles, and probably measure motor skills and reflexes. They do not address cogitative abilities for higher functions - route planning etc.

Whether you can extrapolate motor vehicle BAC to aircraft control, flight planning, decision making is totally another matter.

I am always amazed at the self righteous claptrap that is often spouted on this forum! Mostly it would seem by those who have no real reason to be on here apart from some perverted form of voyeurism that enables them to feel they have some part in aviation.
How many accidents have been blamed on alcohol? How many accidents / incidents have had alcohol cited as a contributary factor?
The truth of the matter is that the levels of alcohol now allowed in pilots is not really based on any sound scientific facts or a history of it being a problem, unlike in car drivers.
The likelyhood of having a small amount of alcohol in your bloodstream having any effect on the safe outcome of flight is very questionable. The fact that there is no requirement for the total concentration required whilst driving and the almost 100% use of automatics means that any input is only required intermittently. This together with the fact that there is at least one other crewmember on the flight deck makes the likelyhood of an incident almost negligible. Judgement may possibly be not quite as sharp as the individual is capable of, but how often have we all operated when tired, stressed just fed up, when we know that our judgement and reactions are not at peak?
I do not condone drinking and flying, however I am often appalled to see that a fellow aviator has been sent to jail for what is often a small misjudgement in the amount of time it takes his/her system to metabolise the previous days consumption. It is this prurient attitude that ends up with a pilot being convicted of having what is considerably less that that allowed in drivers in UK, being sent to jail. Would a bus or lorry driver convicted of drink driving be sent to jail? I think probably not, unless he was involved in an accident with death or severe injuries.

Have a heart