Continental TurboProp crash inbound for Buffalo
 

Commuter crash in Buffalo
 

AP alert - CNN has some video midnight local (EST) time.

BUFFALO, N.Y. — Police say commuter plane has crashed into
home near Buffalo, N.Y.; no information on injuries.

Live video on CNN, the video is from skype. Says the plane hit a house almost square on and that only one person was home.

FAA just confirmed 48 people on board, 2 people not on plane transfered to hospital.

Continental Plane Crashes Into Home In New YorkBUFFALO, N.Y. (AP) ―




New York state police say a 50-passenger commuter plane has crashed into a home in suburban Buffalo.

State Trooper John Manthey says the plane hit a house in Clarence around 10:10 p.m. Thursday. The house is engulfed in flames.

According to media media reports, the plane that crashed was Continental flight 3407 from Newark, N.J. to Buffalo.

According to the FAA, 48 people were on board the plane. There is no word about injuries at this time.

He says they don't know whether there were any passengers on the plane. They also don't know if there were any injuries in the home.

Manthey says the plane may have been headed to Buffalo Niagara International Airport. He says they have called the Federal Aviation Administration.

It was not immediately clear if weather was a factor in the crash. But throughout Thursday, Buffalo experienced gusty winds, rain and snow


Continental Airlines Jet Crashes Into House In New York - kdka.com

CNN still trying to report it as a Dash 8-100/200. FlightAware lists it as a Dash 8-400.

Lots and lots of fire. Doesn't look promising at the moment.

FlightAware > Live Flight Tracker > Colgan Air #3407 > 12-Feb-2009 > KEWR-KBUF

Here is the ATC archive ... starts at 17 past the hour.. Chilling..

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kb...2009-0300Z.mp3

RIP..

Just reported at the news conference that it was a Q400

Kbuf 130254z 24015g22kt 3sm -sn Br Few011 Bkn021 Ovc027 01/m01 A2979 Rmk Ao2 Slp097 P0001 60004 T00061006 51015

Fox News reporting 49 fatalities + two on the ground taken to a hospital.
Fire is not yet under control.

From Buffalo News Web site: "County Executive Chris Collins said that there may have been as many as 50 people aboard the plane and crew members had reported mechanical problems as they approached Buffalo Niagara International Airport. Several injured people were taken from the scene to Erie County Medical Center for treatment."

Nothing about mechanical on ATC archive. Buffalo notes (after repeated calls for Colgan 3407) they need to talk to sheriff or state police: "Somebody need to find out if anything is on the ground, this aircraft was 5 miles out and all of a sudden we have no response from that aircraft."

Reported to be N200WQ. 44 pax + 4 Crew + 1 on the ground reported deceased. Icing reported in and around the area.

One Miracle, One Tragedy, all within 30 days.

My initial feeling is to worry about icing on this Dash 8...

On that ATC audio I hear a departing plane request "continuous climb for icing" right after the point where 3407 goes silent.

Last transmission "3407" acknowledges ATC call to "contact tower"

Crash site (Clarence Center township) on extended centerline for KBUF rwy 23 approach

[edit] officials at press conference report weather was "sleet and rain" at ground level.

[more] ground witness (yeah I know!) from house adjoining crash site says he heard plane and saw crash: "Plane did not sound normal (sic)" and "was not spiralling". FWIW.

A following Delta flight reported ice "about a 1/4 inch on us from descent" not building, US Air reported picking up ice for about 10 minutes but coming off around 2300, another reported ice from 20 miles south of airport.

Approach controllers soliciting icing reports, alerting on possible localizer problems (although noting they weren't indicating problems), and in general reflected tremendous professionalism under circumstances. They noted Colgan went down over the marker.

Real pilots should listen to the next 30mins of ATC recordings.


http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kb...2009-0330Z.mp3

04:30 mins onwards.

3268 "What do you mean he went down?"

3268 "Yeah well we will shoot the approach..."

Comments????????

That ATC guy did a great job, remaining composed knowing what must have happened and calmly controlling the other traffic, and even thinking to take ice reports from them which will hopefully help the investigation.


:sad:

Crash site is 5.3 nm from threshold of rwy 23 at KBUF.

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n.../3407map1z.jpg


http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n...apprRwy23z.jpg

KBUF 130454Z 26014KT 3SM -SN BR SCT011 OVC021 01/00 A2983 RMK AO2 SLP109 P0004 T00060000 401060000=

KBUF 130354Z 24011KT 3SM -SN BR SCT011 OVC021 01/M01 A2981 RMK AO2 SLP103 P0002 T00061006=

KBUF 130254Z 24015G22KT 3SM -SN BR FEW011 BKN021 OVC027 01/M01 A2979 RMK AO2 SLP097 P0001 60004 T00061006 51015=

KBUF 130154Z 24015G23KT 3SM -SN BR FEW011 OVC021 01/M01 A2978=

Source: OGIMET archive

Sorry to see this.
 

I might be wrong, but isn't this the first fatal crash of type?

Is it SOP in the Q400 to add flaps when capturing the GS? (Thinking Roselawn - flaps + ice). ATC reported the crash right at the outer marker, but looks like it might have been a bit outside the OM - where the descent begins from 2300'.

From the approach ATC audio, it sounded to me like the crew did not seem to be stressed or concerned while on the frequency. Maybe the tower freq. tape picked up something. Not to argue - it was just my impression.

[edit] Like Ricky1 says:

Ansett New Zealand Flight 703 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

depends on whether one counts the Q400 as a "new" type or a Dash-8 variant.

@Vapilot2004
There was another incident in 95' Dash 8, but the Q400 entered service in 2000

Ansett New Zealand Flight 703 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I will not guess upon the reason for the accident.
Let NTSB inform us of what has happened!
It is always sad when they happen:(
But here is a link to a serious incident of same type of A/C on approach in Sweden.
Even though there might be no connection between this accident and the incident in Sweden, it might be very good idea to read this report if you operate a turboprop.
http://www.havkom.se/virtupload/news/rl2007_12e.pdf

Walder

wow, great professionalism from ATC indeed. My repects! All the best gents..

ground ear witness
 

ear witness reported sound from engines like that of a chain saw

could it have been a prop overspeed/runaway?

there was a report that the crew reported mx difficulties

with a modern set of recorders, I think we will know what happened within 48 hours.

While ice (IMHO) is a prime suspect given the conditions -- like TheHornet says, it could be a chainsaw loose in the prop or a number of other things. Plenty of possibilities for the moment...

I don't normally enter into the condolence thing - but something about this one just pulls at my spirit. Sorry, sorry sorry...for the crew, the pax, the person on the ground, their families, the Colgan extended family, the controller that worked right through it....

Hey if anyone from CNN is reading this - the "tape" is legit and comes from Listen to Live Air Traffic Control Communications | LiveATC.net, an enthusiast website that streams ATC communication frequencies picked up from scanners over the Internet. Anderson Cooper and a pilot commentator on there keep saying that it's unlikely that there's a tape etc... not true, this website has been around for a long time.

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kb...2009-0300Z.mp3

Initial contact with approach control ocurrs around 3:52, the crash occurs somewhere around 16 minutes or so after the aircraft is handed off to the tower.

Large twin turbo prop
 

It would be interesting to see if there are any flight characteristics similar in the last few minutes of flight to that of the Indiana ATR 72 crash. See below:-

"A friend of mine at deHavilland Canada tells me that the ATR's
aileron aerodynamic balance surfaces, which are not shielded (unlike the
DHC-8), do not have anti- or de-ice protection. The fatal crash in Italy
in 1987(?) of an ATR was blamed on icing of the balance surfaces, leading
to a loss of control. Story is that the same airline came very close to
losing a second ATR the same night from the same cause! The Seattle Times
is reporting that a ATR was nearly lost over Wisconsin in 1988 due to
aileron balance surface icing and that the FAA put out an AD requiring
vortex generators to be added to fix the icing problem. There was also
mention that having the autopilot flying the aircaft in icing conditions
compounds the problem. It seems that a human flying the plane will
notice the onset of icing effects on the ailerons, but the autopilot
compensates and the first that the pilot knows of the problem is when the
aircraft suddenly rolls".

xolodenko, Thursday 12th around 22:20 local time

This will be the 4th fatal accident for the DHC8, and here they are:

• 21 NOV 1990 - DHC-8-100 - Bangkok Airways - HS-SKI - on approach to Koh Samui Airport (USM) - 33 of 38 on board died
• 06 JAN 1993 - DHC-8-300 - Lufthansa Cityline - D-BEAT - landing at Paris-Charles de Gaulle Airport (CDG) - 4 of 23 on board died
• 09 JUN 1995 - DHC-8-100 - Ansett New Zealand - ZK-NEY - on approach to Palmerston North Airport (PMR) - 4 of 21 on board died
• 12 FEB 2009 - DHC-8-400 - Colgan Air - N200WQ - on approach to Buffalo Niagara International Airport (BUF) - 48 of 48 on board died + one on the ground

For the DHC-8-400 (Q400) there has been a number of accidents/incidents without fatalities, and the majority of them are connected to undercarriage failure.

Any Dash drivers care to describe a normal configuration change at the marker in IMC? Do you put the props in high pitch, drop the gear and add flaps?

From the audio links, and location of the crash site, looks like something bad happened right at glide slope intercept at 2300 feet.

Does the Dash have a history of split flaps?

My two cents worth..........maybe refrozen residues of thinkened de-/anti-icing fluid and therefore blocked horizontal stabi or blocked aileron?

Air Accidents Investigation Branch: DHC-8-311, G-BRYU

I know there are special maintenance procedures (washing with hot water or unthickended de-icing fluid) to reduce the residues because the problem is well known.

vapilot2004, yes, with the Q400, three other fatal crashes with the Dash-8 all in all (this is the most deadly of those four). 27 accidents listed on http://www.aviation-safety.net

Airbubba, I've not flown the Q400 for a while but...Some models have a reduced Np setting which allows approaches and landings with props at 850rpm (Cruise setting). Without Reduced Np I can't really remember when the props go to max (Probably dependant on company SOP's) but there is no in flight limit as to when you can use them (IIRC), handy for losing height as it's quite a slippery machine. Gear down and flaps are usually 15 before the glide and depending on landing setting stay there or go to 35.

The ice protection is pretty good. Each wing has boots but they are separated into four sections along each wing and cycle from out to in with the inboard ones cycling alternately. Also engine intake boots cycle alternately.

Found this on USA Today - an interesting comment ref: SAS...

'New era' as Continental begins Q400 flights at Newark - Today In the Sky - USATODAY.com

Not true. Horn balances are electrically heated. ATR drivers are extremely familiar with "level 2 anti-icing".
Not true. It was stall exacerbated by ice accretion. It was only blamed, by some misinformed folks, on ailerons icing post-Roselawn. ATRs are (surprise, surprise) not jets. Early ones have no truckloads of extra power and sometimes in icing, the only way is down - MCT power, red bug and let the altitude slowly bleed off if you can't afford rapid descent.

Q400 is not ATR.

Any speculation about causes of the Buffalo accident are practically worthless until the NTSB has its preliminary say.

Sawing sound reported...
 

...could it be the PTU in the hyd. system? Not sure of the exactly architecture on the Q400 but know it has a PTU. ButI suppose unlikely to be heard above the engines....Just my tuppence worth.

From the ATC recording, sounds like ice accretion reported by several aircraft both north and south of the airport, from maybe 5000 to 2300, around the time 3407 went down.

I find it surprising that ATC told the next Dash 8 that a company Dash had 'gone down' short of the runway and 'didn't make it'. I think I'd find that an enormous distraction and would certainly rather find out once on the ground after shut down. Anyway, how come the ATC tape is available, isn't it protected by law like it is in the UK?

On the atc
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kb...2009-0300Z.mp3

At the mark 15:17 there was a readback from the crew and maybe it is me but the voice sounded nervious, please sombody else hear that and say what is your opinion.

I noticed that also. Took them fairly long time to read back. Quick and nervous "3407" and nothing else. Didn't sound normal to me.

Doesn't sound particularly nervous to me... sounds like a normal readback...

Andrew