Mago, agreed. All transmissions from 3407 prior, sounded calm and relaxed, except that last one, which had a pitch and cadence change. Nothing that sounded alarming though.

goatface, re: pressure settings. you are right, no mention of current pressure settings at all. and one more thing. Delta 1998 is approaching with arrival info S (1:45) and 2 minutes later Colgan 3407 is calling APP with Arrival info R (3:52). there's no correction from ATC re arrival information and pressure...

EDIT: anotherthing, listened to it again and have to say I missed it

KN77

The pressure of 29.80 was given by the ATCO and read back by the pilot of 3407 when the pilot checked in with App passing 12000' for 11000'.

Not sure the time of the transmission because the player I listened to does not have that function.

I was listening to the playback posted by flightopsab (post #6)

Edit - KN77, have you picked it up now? It's on the initial contact with Approach. Pressure was passed and acknowledged, and it is the same pressure setting that a departing aircraft is given about 10 minutes later.

Regrettably, as we have seen before, the incident is characterised by the two operators involved each trying to divert publicity to the other.

The Continental website immediately describes it as a Colgan Airwas flight, without mentioning Continental.

The Colgan Airways website meanwhile describes it as a Continental flight.

For the passenger it is bought on the CO website, a plane with a CO flight number, a CO livery, crew in CO uniforms, and with the CO magazine placed in the seats. I do find it disappointing that the whole operation is portrayed as the Continental brand until the moment something goes wrong, then it's "nothing to do with me" on an aspect of technicality only understood within the aviation world.

WHBM

The pilot of 3407 calls herself Colgan 3407 throughout...

Plane crashed on Long St., near the intersection of Long St. and Maple St. in the town of Clarence Center, NY. The plane struck only one house, suggesting a fairly vertical descent.

I listened to the ATC recording again, and one pilot reported icing between 6500 and 3500 ft. At 2300 ft aircraft were shedding ice again. One pilot (cactus 14xx if I recall) reported accumulating ice for 10 minutes, and was wanting ATC to get him out of it (this was a couple of minutes after 3407 was reported missing).

As with most aircraft just before the outer marker or the FAF the configuration is changing. Gear and flaps are being extended. In heavy icing conditions the prop RPM is increased and the autopilot is disengaged. Also the Dash is not permitted to be flown on approach single engine by the auto-pilot. This must be done manually. There is also a flap drive protection that will prevent the flaps from being extended asymmetrically. Just a few factors that may or may not have contributed.

sad
 

listening to this tapes i got goosebumps....its sad and i feel for everyone involved.

Flying Turboprops in Europe i found myself very often in severe icing conditions and all i can say there must be more to this then the weather ....

It must be another chain of failures which happened to this tragic accident.

lets wait for the results ,learn from it .

ATC Feed
 

The ATC feed on this thread is only from APP. Is there a BUF TWR feed for the period?

I too noticed the Continental news release that all but absolves them of any responsibility (as if any attorney can't figure that out). Continental pulls all the money strings, including the shoestring that they force their Express airlines to operate on. This is reminiscent of Delta's reaction after the Comair accident.

Mungo Man

Despite numerous reports of icing, only one aircraft requested an 'unrestricted' climb, and one aircraft asked for an 'unrestricted' descent.

After the confirmation of the mishap, the Air Traffic Controller was justifiable concerned with the possibilty of a fatal combination of a Q400 and ice.

Assuming the following Colgan aircraft was a Q400, I believe the controller felt obliged to pass on the information!

He was no doubt torn between his duty of care, and the knowledge of the effect his transmission would have on that crew.

A difficult night for many people.

Unrestricted Climb

The aircraft was a departure, stopped at 5 on the SID. Probably had the sigmet, either on the ATIS or from tower about the icing. When he got stopped at 5, he did the prudent thing and asked for a higher altitude, unrestricted climb essentially informs departure that the request is not just for the view. Nothing to be read into this request as far as the icing conditions above. Done it many times

Altitude Readbacks

Not required in the US. However if you bust an altitude then the readback really changes things. If you read it back and ATC missed the mistake, then they can wear it. If you didn't read it back, and bust the altitude, then you're on your own

Does the Q400 have windshield wipers or anything that would show ice accretion to the pilots?

Temp was 1C so no doubt they were using anti-ice and cycling de-icing, right?

new, close-up photos from the crash site

Flugzeugabsturz auf New York: Feuersbrunst im Wohngebiet - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Nachrichten - Politik

The DHC8 has a 'spigott' on the wipers which shows ice accretion, it has the same aerodynamic profile as the tail, so the pilots can see what ice if any has built up on the surface.

It also has wing inspection lights and Ice detection systems, and from my own experiance has a good de-ice/anti-ice system.

My two cents...the weather conditions REPORTED dont seem anything the DHC8 cant handle

This may or may not be an ice related accident.. time will tell. But that said, all pilots, especially turbo-prop pilots should be made aware of the difference between a conventional wing stall caused by ice accretion and a tail stall caused by ice accretion. The tail can normally be considered to suffer greater ice accretion due to it's shape and the the recovery for a tail stall is the complete opposit to that required for a wing stall; ie. pull back on the column and maybe even (depending on the a/c type) decrease power. Mis-identification of the stall could be lethal.

Quote: My two cents...the weather conditions REPORTED dont seem anything the DHC8 cant handle..

Let's just hope the anti-ice wasn't in the AF 737 'Onff' position...

El Lobo Solo

Some of us are dash8 pilots, some of us are Colgan air pilots, some are maintenance technicians etc the list goes on. While we are all deeply sorry for the losses that people have suffered we are all concerned and would like to share our information, experiences and technical knowledge with each other. This is a Rummour forum. No one means any disrespect.

An eye witness who saw the crash was just interviewed on CNN. He reported seeing the aircraft in a steep nose down attitude, one wing lower than the other, going away from the airport.

Sounds like a stall/spin to me.

The Colgan website states the q400 is 'new' to them.
Do all colgan pilots have low hours on type?

Colgan Air began operating the Q400 about one year ago. Prior to that they also operated other turbo-props like the Saab 340.

I sincerely doubt that "time on type" had anything to do with this accident.

plot for that house isn't too big, must have augered almost straight in to just take out one home.

When the television stations decide to go wall-to-wall coverage, I suppose it is inevitable that the drivel content will be increased substantially.

One interview however with a witness on the ground seemed to sound more credible than usual, as he described his own driving direction (east) and stated that the aircraft which he saw was travelling in the opposite direction from normal landings and approaches to 23.

The other tidbit which keeps recurring on at least some broadcasts is to the effect that "the crew reported mechanical problems before the crash". If so, could this have been done on a company frequency and ATC totally unaware of it?

And have days ago optioned 15 more.

Bombardier Grants Option Rights to Colgan Air, Inc. for 15 Q400 NextGen Aircraft

Crew:

Capt. Marvin Renslow, joined Colgan 9/2005, 3379 flying hours with Colgan.
FAA Airman records show him type-certified on both the Dash-8 and the Saab.
FO Rebecca Shaw, joined Colgan 1/2008, 2244 flying hours with Colgan.
FAA records show her type-certified but limited to second-in-command on the Dash-8.
She was also a certified flight instructor for smaller single-engine planes.
FAs Matilda Quintero and Donna Prisco, joined Colgan 5/2008
Also aboard, off-duty Capt. Joseph Zuffoletto

ATC feed
 

captainspeaking (tab #55), the stream from LiveATC.net is from a scanner that picks up the tower, approach and departure frequencies. See U.S. Class C Airport Feeds | Live Air Traffic Control Audio Feeds | LiveATC.net

All three show up on the clip that is circulating.

For this type turboprop what recommendations have been incorporated in FCOM's for icing conditions during approach?

Presumably the aircraft is certificated to land in icing conditions, but there might be minimization techniques to avoid sudden upsets?

finfly1;
I listened to that interview as well and it was a very "rational", calmly described eye-witness account - very credible, so far as eye/ear witness accounts go.

The aircraft was described as:

- Low...300, 400ft
- Descending "steeply", but he qualifed that by saying he was looking at it "up through the top of his windshield" and it was (as you say) going away from him, (so judging "steepness" from that angle is difficult - they all look "steep")
- left wing slightly low, no extreme bank angle
- landing gear "up"
- no fire anywhere on the airplane
- "unusual engine noise", but he admitted he doesn't fly that often so it all may be "unusual".
- The direction of the flight was north to northwest and not south.


The eyewitness lives in the apartment one house away from the crash-site.

The approach they appeared to be planning was the ILS - are there any NOTAMS indicating unservicabilities of the ILS system that anyone flightplanning into that area may know about?

Many types of aircraft use windshield wipers posts for ice detection. Do you have a problem with that?

EDIT: I guess he changed his mind because he deleted his post... Or the mods deleted it for him? :bored:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17...iperPost-1.jpg

1000 hours per calender year for 121 ops in the US.

TabsAZ--
I was watching Anderson Cooper until after 2am. Both he and the assisting pilot [Tillman?] mentioned that there *was* a tape, not that there was not. Also, Anderson kept trying to keep a lid on the speculation by reporting only what they knew was confirmed. I thought it was an excellent job of reporting.

Damn
 

Sad, 9/11 widow killed in crash.


9/11 widow killed in crash - , - Latest news & weather forecasts - MSN News UK

Buffalo approach control uses 2 different frequencies. In this case the one controller is working both sectors and transmitting on both frequencies. The radio is scanning both Buffalo approach frequencies (as well as Tower). There appears to be a delay function of 1 to 2 seconds either programmed or built into the scanner, so it will stop scanning momentarily after each transmission. If the controller transmits and the scanner happens to stop on the frequency that the aircraft is not on (50/50 chance) then the beginning of the aircraft's transmission will be missed because of the scanning delay. This appears to be evident with transmission heard from other aircraft on the tape as well. It is quite likely that the altitude readback was transmitted but just not picked up in the recording.

JC

Continental TurboProp crash inbound for Buffalo
 

Question for Dash-8 pilots:

Does the wing/prop/engine anti-ice system on the Dash-8 work automatically or does it have to be physically turned on in icing conditions to work? Just wondering....

Possible mechanical fault in the de-ice system? If one wing was working and the other wasn't, the iced-up wing could have stalled as they leveled and slowed at 2,300'.

Unfortuntaely, as an ATCO, I've experienced this sort of incident before, i.e aircraft stops communicating.
Whatever was the cause, it happened very quickly and I'd be very suprised if ice was the major factor but the investigating authorities will make their fndings known ASAP.
All credit to the people in charge on the ground and their responses to the media, it's clear that their prority is to anyone on board and their relatives.

Whoever is coordinating all of the terrible events - well done to you.

And the high "T" tail horizontal stabilizer? Looks like a lot of surface area way back there for the size of the aircraft.

Some speculation, but please check me on the facts.

It looks like (google map) and sounds like (ATC recording) that 3407 was flying towards the ILS to intercept it. I thought I heard the ATC say something about no autoland, due to variances in the ILS. So where the plane went down (about 1-2 miles north of the runway 23 centerline), looks like it might be a spot where one might disconnect the autopilot, to hand fly the ILS capture and final descent.

Icing
 

Ofcourse there is no idea of speculate of the reason but similar accidents have happened before. We had one in Sweden (Stockholm) long time ago where a 4 eng turboprop (vickers vicount) nosedived on short approach. That was due to heavy icing on the tail and when crew selected landingflaps the center of gravity changes rapidly and the tail could not support that with the icing and just nosedived into ground killing all omboard.
Weather that has something to do with this time will tell.
But a sad day for aviation is it nevertheless

Wings 1011

The leading edges of the T-tail also has pneumatic de-ice boots on the Q400, in addition to those on the wing leading edges and engine intakes.

As has been said, the apparent wx conditions well within the capabilities of the 400's de-ice system provided it was operating normally. From what I recall, the system needs to be selected manually to 'ON', and once selected runs in an automatic cycle. Detection of icing conditions determined by an ice detection system (message displayed on centre EFIS screen alongside engine instruments), with additional visual cues coming from the ice detection spigot on the wiper arms, and from visual inspection of approximately 2.5m of the wings visible from the flight deck.

However, the de-ice system on the 400 is prone to minor failures (with a caution illuminating on the master warning/caution panel), requiring crews to exit & avoid icing conditions. Had this been the case, I would expect the crew would have had ample time and opportunity to alert ATC should that have been necessary.

As for the 'chainsaw' sound reported by one witness, I doubt it would be the PTU. It's operation is fairly hard to detect on board the a/c, let alone as a ground-based observer.