JMC excellent pay and conditions
 

Most of us in JMC are exasperated with the wining and whinging of many of you pilots. Your reaction to the 3.5% pay rise is beyond belief. It is as much as the company can afford after an expensive expansion in a difficult and competitive market. Why should you have a higher pay rise than the rest of us. Do you work harder than all the other people in the company.
Take a long hard look at what you have. Compare your salaries to the Balpa paylist. You have a guarenteed incrementalpayrise and we dont. You have a good pension, PHI, loss of licence, health insurance, a good hourly rate, subsidisel holidays and very cheap 48 hour deals. You have the best job security in our business.
Those of you who have joined us in the last 2 years must have short memories. Think about your previous pay and conditions . Do you remember the poor operational standards, poor Ops and crewing support and the lack of career prospects. Why did you join us and not Virgin or British Airways.
Those of you from Caledonian and Airworld gladly accepted large payrises when you joined Flying Colours. How many of you were rejected by Air2000 or Flying Colours and yet were put on the same pay scale.
Those of you who joined us at the beginning of Flying Colours have forgotten the worry of late summer 1998 and now you are in a well paid secure job with excellent extra benefits. Most of you have been promoted, sometimes several times. Each time you accepted a pay rise. Would you have been advantaged like this if you had stayed at Air2000. What would be your pay and conditions if you had stayed.
Wino you continue to complain about this management team. You know nothing of JMC and Airworld. We are the most innovative and dynamic team in our business. You were a Ryan pilot and just look at the way we have managed and improved that deal. We have expanded our airline 6 times and taken on 2 fialin airlines on the way. We turned those airlines into punctual, efficient and profitable companies before merging them into JMC. The Airworld managers and directors were fired up by Thomas Cook after an independant audit. They ran a small company poorly and were incapable of running a large company well. Did you know the pilots had summer only contracts, junior pilot grades, 5 crew per aircraft and dubios crewing practices. Hardly a good employer Wino. Ask yourself where are those people now- disappeared into obscurity.
Remember Wino cream floats to the top and Darrall tells me you voted with your feet. We have massively improved the Ryan deal with greatly increased pay, full licences and a 2 weeks on 2 weeks off deal.
Those of you who think that you will get a better deal from Condor just talk to your colleagues who worked for them. Ask them why the union was allowed to eject the british pilots.
Do yourself a favour andstop whining and whinging. Face up to reality and look at the good career you have with JMC. If you dont want to be part of the team you know where the door is and Adrian has a stack of applications.

Mancu

Dear mancu,
you're obviously not a pilot-let alone a proffessional one-so stop whinging about pilots whinging and get of this forum.
goodbye

I'm still trying to figure out whether this is a wind-up or not. It's sounds like a cross between a general manager-type complaint about the workforce and a recruitment ad'!

I don't know anything about the working conditions within JMC, so feel free to prove me wrong - I won't be offended.

But - isn't JMC a charter operator with all the trappings of working for a charter company? i.e. Less stable rosters, frequent delays (slot restrictions etc.), frequent night flying, 2 crew ETOPS etc.

Again I don't know what the basics are for FO or Captain with JMC, or what the pension is - final salary, or less-attractive money purchase? I would suggest that any FO working a reasonably heavy jet should be worth a package of around 70k and a skipper around 100k. Does JMC offer this?

It may compare with other charter outfits - but that's only because all these companies have been getting cheap labour for the last few years. If people feel they are undervalued then of course they will whinge - people don't whinge just for the sake of it - if people are complaining they must feel they have a genuine grievance, however uncharitable you may think it.

People can see when they are being (ab)used by the companies they work for - however it is quite rare to be in a position to do something about it. That time has come though for the general pilot workforce. Traditionally just about every airline in the UK compares itself to the package BA offers. In recent years many airlines have comfortably exceeded BA renumeration wise. Assuming successful negotiations this year (with or without industrial action) the situation will change again. All airlines will once more have to offer a better package to retain their workforce or people will do as you have suggested, and walk. BA will once again become the employer of choice (Although some say that pigs may fly!)

Whilst you - as a manager - may dread the impending pay deals at other (major) carriers and the subsequent (incessant?) demands from your workforce. The fact remains that pilots within the UK have consistently earned less than their near neighbours for many years now. If you are a pilot yourself then you are selling both you and your colleagues short unless they are earning the amounts I quoted above.

IMHO.

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif Underdog

Mancu,

Your comments towards Airworld are highly in-accurate... http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/thefinger.gif

You must be JMC...you share the same arrogance as most of the FCL people i've met...you actually think your the best!!!

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/knob.gif

[This message has been edited by JB007 (edited 06 July 2001).]

Mancu,

"The best job security around".. don't make me laugh. If you believe that then the earth is flat, nuclear power is safe and no, of course dear I wont c*m in your mouth.

Time for a reality check I think.

Nice work Mancu

If our pay rises were based on “what the company can afford”, we wouldn’t have got anything last year, this year, or next year. How exactly would YOU determine “what the company can afford” ? Its not about “what the company can afford”, its about what the market (any market) demands, and the Pilot market is demanding massive increases in pay world-wide. Let JMC plead poverty to OPEC when crude oil rises …. get my drift ?

By the way, did you know that JMC has one of the lowest Pilot cost bases in the UK I.T. industry ? No one is on more than year 8, JMC has the lower F/O scale that most other carriers don’t, CTC cadets in abundance, pilots worked to the limits of the law, want me to keep going ?

If one Pilot resigns, how much money do you think it costs to train his replacement from interview to unsupervised line flying ? If you are a manager you’ll know the answer. You’ll also remember the Air 2000 experience wont you ? Is that what you want ?

Yes we know where the door is, but ballot box first matey !

Mancu,
I did not work for Airworld nor any of the other companies which make up today's JMC, but I think your comments about Airworld are just plain wrong. From my knowledge of it (which was reasonably close), I always felt it was a well-run operation and certainly some of its senior managers were (and still are) very capable individuals (and nor were they arrogant). There are more than a few people in this industry who think that the management of Airworld were completely shafted without reason when the merger took place.

Space Cadet


http://www.duhspot.com/users/smiley/.../zxflipoff.gif

I actually worked for airworld and we wern't on summer only contracts. we only flew during the summer and during winter the aircraft were dry leased out while we took the winter off on full pay. i had numerous long skiing holidays and trips to the US all while being paid. additionally we always made a very tidy profit, unlike FCL or indeed Cally. our management was shafted. jmc had a terrilble late record for its first year or two. don't know what is like now but i don't suppose it's improved. still the same i guess. anyway, i voted with my feet and left. i recommend it to anybody. there is a lot of good jobs out here on a lot more money with less flying and more holidays.

Mancu,
If you are that exasperated, you should have posted this on the jmc private forum, i'm sure you would have had some "juicy" replies.
Have you forgotten how far we have come in the 1+ years?
It is also very unfair of you to slag off the "failing airlines" as you put it, because they contributed alot of experience and made jmc a very stable and professional employer to be with, It is time to let bygones be bygones, we all work together now as a big family.

mancu >>>

Fortunately, we have very few individuals with your arrogance in JMC. Consequently, I am fairly certain of your identify, but I'll keep that to myself.....for now !

[This message has been edited by rollercoaster (edited 06 July 2001).]

mancu

Obviously you are one of those well balanced individuals. That is, one with a chip on each shoulder.

PS
I hope you all voted NO!

A JMC cabin crew friend (exCKT) told me that the CKT & AWD people call the FCL people "the Dark Side".....any truth in that????

I understand that JMC stands for

Just Murdered Caledonian

or

Just Might Collapse

Whilst the first is true, how about the second?

Guvnor,

"Just Might Collapse" - a bit rich coming from you considering the mess you made of your Tristar venture!!

haven't you got anything better to do anymore?

Funny, I scanned this quickly and missed my name in the leading message a couple of times. I guess it was all the whiney ohhh the pilots are evil ungratefull SOBs that made me blow right through the message.

The airworld managment was EXCELLENT at instilling a team spirit. When we arrived in Manchester at the 4 seasons in early 98, Dewey and Saville came to breakfast with us, and welcomed us aboard, explained who they were and where they wanted to be etc. They admitted that they were undercapitalized but that they were hoping to grow. They instantly melded us into the team and we got along famously. Everyone who was there for the first season considers it to be the high water mark for their treatment (treatment is a lot more than just compensation). Bob Willis and Jon Bailey were both available to answer questions (should we tanker, tech problem with the aircraft, whadda we do now? etc..) that were completely lacking in the FCL regiem. Finally in year 3 a tanker chart came out. Big deal...

Unfortunately you can't see good treatment on a balance sheet. In season 2 and 3 they didn't say a word to us except through Daryl when we were bad to spank us. Not even a thank you when we left. So you know what? To keep us coming back they had to poney up a lot of money. Well guess what? it still aint enough! lots of people, not just me are voting with their feet. I didn't even have an application in at another airline after the first season. It wasn't untill the FCL experience that I applied to AA.


So yes, JMC pays more now. Its still a pittance. And since they smashed the team spirit and the FUN of Airworld (which, doesn't show on a balance sheet, but the sheet WAS positive) the only thing that a pilot can measure is their compensation. Its still inferior. Sorry dude.

And two weeks on two weeks off? Yeah, right, only when we get around to it. The month of May is always gone, and now they took the overtime away for it. So instead of getting over time in May, the pilots get Parks checks and get to pay for their own accomodation. Big deal.

I can continue if you like? How about the stupidity of standardizing an airbus on boeing cockpit procedures? Yeah, that's safe. As FCL pilots were not dual qualified to fly both types of planes, that was just arogant we are smart than you tripe. And its was LESS SAFE. It completely ignored the strengths of the 320, and basically threw 8 years of institutional experience out the window. That kind of knowedge is priceless. The fact that Min Brown and others stood for that crap and didn't leave is just pure luck on your part. Not skill, and they could not have been replaced.

So anyway. Lets just sum it up shall we? That brilliant management that you are cheering for, spends millions of pounds a year placating a pilot group that they might have kept happy by simply having breakfast with em to welcome them to the team?

As to the visionary management team. I think the vision was Airworld's, they set up the US rotation to keep the utilization of the aircraft up. JMC just takes the credit for it.


Yeah, that is smart managment. JMC is a good place to be FROM.

Cheers
Wino


null

I couldn't agree with you more Wino. I was at manchester during your first year and remember the house of evil quite well. happy days. anyway, to anyone interested we didn't refer to the fcl lot as the dark side but as Flying FucXXXs. It was ok though as they didn't prove us wrong. Is Min Brown still there? i would have thought he would have jacked that lot in long ago. By the way mancu if adrians in tray is full it is from very inexperienced pilots. if the captains start leaving your company will go tXts up very quickly.

Heh heh,

I called the FCL lot Lying Fu***rs <G>.

More waste, Does anyone remember Roger Grey?

Had a reverser unlock as I got to the runway in MAN, Taxied off, got on the radio, He had a new release reflecting the MEL already in hand but the time I hit the remote stand, the engineers locked out the reverser and we were gone after 4 min on the stand. Made the tail end of the slot, it was unbelievable.

No one is that good now. He was amazing. They binned him too. More waste.

Cheers
Wino

Maybe this should be on the jmc forum and not the public one?

Dirt was kicked my way, and I don't have access to the JMC forum as I no longer fly there. As a former employee can I have access?

Andy

Remember,

These days we all bow to one God.........The Shareholder. Your management will do their best to restrain your pay. Whilst you may ride high at this time, do expect it to join the pay scales of everyone else in the sector soon enough.

Also remember............JMC _ Just More Crap.

TTFN

Flight
:eek:

Wino,

You are too long gone to have anything useful to add, the years have given you rose coloured vision. You were part of an operation that relied on profesionalism, maturity and discretion. The company is now too big to rely on knowledge of individuals and there weaknesses. We must all move on, we are glad you did and a little sad you didn't go sooner. You weren't the weakest link, but goodbye anyway.

Mancu
Sorry you feel so bitter about us lot, fail your ATPL exams lots did you, or was it just that you could not fly the right way up!
Anyway we PROFFESIONALS, will see our salaries rise for the forseeable future because we are only now levelling the playing field that has been uneven for years.
You my freind? , well there is always w/ banking.

beardy,

I was at JMC a lot more recently than you seam to think, I think...

If you didn't worship the ground I walk on, well, I am just crying about it.

JMC Is a step up from FCL. But it is still several cuts below What airworld was.

And so they will pay for training costs and more salaries to try and keep people. And so it goes. A large company does not prevent a good management from instilling a team spirit or esprit de corps. Look out South west. They operate more than 350 737s, and they are a TEAM. Lead by good men.
'
That is what is missing.

Cheers
Wino

I knew a guy with a beard in fcl/jmc. he was definately a weak link. hope you're not in a glass house beardy. the weater is a bit unpredictable to living in a draft.

More obnoxious stupidity obviously by non line people for the the line people after Airworld became FCL:

They did away with the wheeled bags for the F/A's but did nothing to reduce the weight of the poor ladies manuals and required items. I picked up that huge leather purse that they issued them instead of the wheels. It weighed more than my kit bag!

Several people had back injuries from that brilliant move.

It was defended as a way of keeping the girls from buying beer and carrying it on their trolley. Instead of treating them like adults and saying, don't carry beer on the outside of your bags, they did away with a necesary piece of equiptment.

It was just spite, we ground people can't get goodies overseas, so we will take them from the flight staff to make it fair.

I bet the Engineers are still missing my "beer runs" to spain...

Cheers,
Wino

PS. Beardy, as to an operation being too large to depend on the knowledge of individuals. That is just more arrogant tripe. ANY organization is made up of a group of individuals, and the strengths of each and everyone of them are the "institutional knowledge" that provide strength to an operation. FCL pissed away 8 years of airbus institutional knowledge. JMC somewhat corrected that but not nearly enough.

It is the duty of managment to recognize and reward talented line people like the Roger Greys, not just the people that play board room politics well. By your statement, management should just hire monkeys, they are too large to need good people.

[ 09 July 2001: Message edited by: Wino ]

PHEW Hell of a topic.

It seems obvious that the najority of responses are detrimental to JMC. However, those of you that seem to have an axe to grind are basing your opinions on previous airline experience.

Unfortunately through takeovers and mergers, Airworld, Flying Colours and Caledonian Airways are now under the guise of the extremely non descript "JMC Airlines".

Through no fault of our own have we were all been introduced to a new system, progress is progress after all. I wonder though if all that anger is not so much directed at each other as to the marketing agency who decided upon such an appalling name and the management team who agreed it!

At the end of the day change is inevitable and we all get on with the job at hand and deliver the service because we all have pride in what we do. The problem arises when we don't feel valued for the services we provide and the extra miles we go. That, as the cabin crew managers are quick to point out then becomes a performance issue. Something they do not seem to realise is that we constantly appraise them on their standards as they do us.

Anyone who is not happy with the way they are treated, level of pay, working conditions etc has a choice...... to stay or to go, unfortunately for JMC the majority are opting to go.....leaving inexperienced staff to cope with demanding and difficult situations which are not being handled well.

I am not condoning the practices of JMC, but i do think that while everyone continues to go that extra mile for a company that simply expects it from ALL its employees, things will never improve.

What we should be doing is focusing on the facts that JMC is JMC, it is not part Airworld, FCL & CKT. Frustratiing as that may seem, whilst we fight amongst ourselves, the company has no reason to change any of its policies and practices and indeed it wont have to!

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[ 09 July 2001: Message edited by: Psr777 ]

How much did it cost to get new logo ,paint all the aircraft etc etc etc???
I personally think the colour scheme is awful. Come back Bob Ayling all is forgiven!!

Wino,
I worked for Airworld in it's first year of operation and agree they were a good outfit. I also worked for flying colours and found them to be the best company I ever worked for from an engineering point of view. Please refrain from derogatory remarks such as Flying F******s etc as this is insulting to many people and unprofessional in it's extreme.
Let's keep it clean eh guys.
Thankyou very much.

actually it was me that said that. i agree with you that engineering was good at FCL but that was it. they had 2 very cheap brand names ie club 18-30 and sunset, where losing money hand over fist and manipulated the on time figures in their favour to garner better pr. they got their hands on AWD and butchered us for their own gain. incidentally most of us AWD guys lost money as we lost our profit related bonus in favour of a small pay rise. now thats progress. oh and another thing while i'm about it. the travel perks are rubbish. one half price holiday at top book prices and a cheap holiday to tenerife etc? do me a favour. real perks are unlimited ID90 for the whole family in any class to any destination in the world from a variety of major airlines, with massive discounts in 5 star hotels. to the younger guys in JMC, if you are any good get out of the minors and into the majors people. do you really want to be doing triple night turkeys in 20 years time? you will look like your a 90 on your 50th birthday.

So 50.3% of you pilots have exibited sense

Interesting to note MANCU that this was your first post on the day you were registered. You obviously have an axe to grind - What was your previous username????

hey mancu you K++B. 50.3% have demonstrated an absolotue fear to vote with their feet as usual. to them i say baa baa and to anybody else who has their command i say why are you not out her earning twice as much and retiring by age 45. you will be nowhere in 10 years time. ill be on my yacht watching you guys fly in and out of the caribbean :D cheers easy!

And I will be tied up along side in my yacht as well.

More Cabo Wabo tequila please...

Cheers
Wino

Aah Wino, stirring it up as I fondly remeber you always doing!!!
Mancu, you are obviously one of the brown nosers that got to keep their job and not through merit. Having worked in Airworld and Callie I can tell you that those two companies were superb and that FCL was a bunch of egotistical maniacs who believed they invented aviation. How could you drop a covetted name like Callie, steeped in history and replace it with Jerk My Chain???
My God, if they would get rid of pantywastes like you, the place would run 1000% better.
There is so much animosity between ex AWD, Cllie and FCL that the working atmosphere stinks. You must have been the one to choose the Lime Green.
I hope the Germans in their effecient way, route out W***ers like you as you have done to so many good people that could run this place with their eyes closed,
Go play marbles in the traffic you dips***.

Im guessing that MANCU is former FCL managment. Only their management would be stupid enough to call me out to a street fight, thinking that their poop doesn't stink.

FCL was another one of those airlines that couldn't make money if they were hauling COCAINE, yet their management thought they were brilliant.

They terminated the leases on a bunch of 320s and then tried to run 757s in small markets. Yeah that was smart...

Cheers
Wino

Well said wino !!

I personally, along with my collegues, all worked bloody hard for AWD and I still rate it, along with Excalibur, as the best airline i've worked for yet...
Mr Saville got the best out of all in my department.

And comparing it to a month I spent in a porta-cabin in a MAN A/pt car park...well, best decision I made was accepting redundancy.!!!

Mancu.
I have been on hols for a couple of weeks so I have just picked up on this amazing post. Efficent and innivotive I think not.Arrogance and ignorance I think yes. Were you the prepubescent ------ that sent 5 aircraft to athens causing chaos for days and costing jmc a fortune? Were you the idiot that told crews to ignore your own departments pbs?
Were you the cowboy that told the md that a crew had deliberately sabotaged the operation by refusing to break 3 hours discretion.
Mancu take a long hard look at yourself and your operation,
WAS Blue SKY a waste of time. Didn't you learn a thing. Was it spin to impress jd tc c&n.
Go ask the heavy duty battery why there is so much techlog cheating
Just More Cheats
Just More Cowboys
Just More Children
Just More Conceit
Just More Chaos

Please GOD Just More Condor,
Please please please please

Andy

Hey, here's a novel plan, if you dont like it then bloody well leave.
Bunch of left in the oh so good past knobs.

I did and i don't regard myself as a knob any more than the next man. you are welcome to it tight slot. when you relise the error of your misplaced loyalty i hope you are still young enough to move elsewhere.