JMC excellent pay and conditions
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JMC excellent pay and conditions
Most of us in JMC are exasperated with the wining and whinging of many of you pilots. Your reaction to the 3.5% pay rise is beyond belief. It is as much as the company can afford after an expensive expansion in a difficult and competitive market. Why should you have a higher pay rise than the rest of us. Do you work harder than all the other people in the company.
Take a long hard look at what you have. Compare your salaries to the Balpa paylist. You have a guarenteed incrementalpayrise and we dont. You have a good pension, PHI, loss of licence, health insurance, a good hourly rate, subsidisel holidays and very cheap 48 hour deals. You have the best job security in our business.
Those of you who have joined us in the last 2 years must have short memories. Think about your previous pay and conditions . Do you remember the poor operational standards, poor Ops and crewing support and the lack of career prospects. Why did you join us and not Virgin or British Airways.
Those of you from Caledonian and Airworld gladly accepted large payrises when you joined Flying Colours. How many of you were rejected by Air2000 or Flying Colours and yet were put on the same pay scale.
Those of you who joined us at the beginning of Flying Colours have forgotten the worry of late summer 1998 and now you are in a well paid secure job with excellent extra benefits. Most of you have been promoted, sometimes several times. Each time you accepted a pay rise. Would you have been advantaged like this if you had stayed at Air2000. What would be your pay and conditions if you had stayed.
Wino you continue to complain about this management team. You know nothing of JMC and Airworld. We are the most innovative and dynamic team in our business. You were a Ryan pilot and just look at the way we have managed and improved that deal. We have expanded our airline 6 times and taken on 2 fialin airlines on the way. We turned those airlines into punctual, efficient and profitable companies before merging them into JMC. The Airworld managers and directors were fired up by Thomas Cook after an independant audit. They ran a small company poorly and were incapable of running a large company well. Did you know the pilots had summer only contracts, junior pilot grades, 5 crew per aircraft and dubios crewing practices. Hardly a good employer Wino. Ask yourself where are those people now- disappeared into obscurity.
Remember Wino cream floats to the top and Darrall tells me you voted with your feet. We have massively improved the Ryan deal with greatly increased pay, full licences and a 2 weeks on 2 weeks off deal.
Those of you who think that you will get a better deal from Condor just talk to your colleagues who worked for them. Ask them why the union was allowed to eject the british pilots.
Do yourself a favour andstop whining and whinging. Face up to reality and look at the good career you have with JMC. If you dont want to be part of the team you know where the door is and Adrian has a stack of applications.
Mancu
Take a long hard look at what you have. Compare your salaries to the Balpa paylist. You have a guarenteed incrementalpayrise and we dont. You have a good pension, PHI, loss of licence, health insurance, a good hourly rate, subsidisel holidays and very cheap 48 hour deals. You have the best job security in our business.
Those of you who have joined us in the last 2 years must have short memories. Think about your previous pay and conditions . Do you remember the poor operational standards, poor Ops and crewing support and the lack of career prospects. Why did you join us and not Virgin or British Airways.
Those of you from Caledonian and Airworld gladly accepted large payrises when you joined Flying Colours. How many of you were rejected by Air2000 or Flying Colours and yet were put on the same pay scale.
Those of you who joined us at the beginning of Flying Colours have forgotten the worry of late summer 1998 and now you are in a well paid secure job with excellent extra benefits. Most of you have been promoted, sometimes several times. Each time you accepted a pay rise. Would you have been advantaged like this if you had stayed at Air2000. What would be your pay and conditions if you had stayed.
Wino you continue to complain about this management team. You know nothing of JMC and Airworld. We are the most innovative and dynamic team in our business. You were a Ryan pilot and just look at the way we have managed and improved that deal. We have expanded our airline 6 times and taken on 2 fialin airlines on the way. We turned those airlines into punctual, efficient and profitable companies before merging them into JMC. The Airworld managers and directors were fired up by Thomas Cook after an independant audit. They ran a small company poorly and were incapable of running a large company well. Did you know the pilots had summer only contracts, junior pilot grades, 5 crew per aircraft and dubios crewing practices. Hardly a good employer Wino. Ask yourself where are those people now- disappeared into obscurity.
Remember Wino cream floats to the top and Darrall tells me you voted with your feet. We have massively improved the Ryan deal with greatly increased pay, full licences and a 2 weeks on 2 weeks off deal.
Those of you who think that you will get a better deal from Condor just talk to your colleagues who worked for them. Ask them why the union was allowed to eject the british pilots.
Do yourself a favour andstop whining and whinging. Face up to reality and look at the good career you have with JMC. If you dont want to be part of the team you know where the door is and Adrian has a stack of applications.
Mancu
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I'm still trying to figure out whether this is a wind-up or not. It's sounds like a cross between a general manager-type complaint about the workforce and a recruitment ad'!
I don't know anything about the working conditions within JMC, so feel free to prove me wrong - I won't be offended.
But - isn't JMC a charter operator with all the trappings of working for a charter company? i.e. Less stable rosters, frequent delays (slot restrictions etc.), frequent night flying, 2 crew ETOPS etc.
Again I don't know what the basics are for FO or Captain with JMC, or what the pension is - final salary, or less-attractive money purchase? I would suggest that any FO working a reasonably heavy jet should be worth a package of around 70k and a skipper around 100k. Does JMC offer this?
It may compare with other charter outfits - but that's only because all these companies have been getting cheap labour for the last few years. If people feel they are undervalued then of course they will whinge - people don't whinge just for the sake of it - if people are complaining they must feel they have a genuine grievance, however uncharitable you may think it.
People can see when they are being (ab)used by the companies they work for - however it is quite rare to be in a position to do something about it. That time has come though for the general pilot workforce. Traditionally just about every airline in the UK compares itself to the package BA offers. In recent years many airlines have comfortably exceeded BA renumeration wise. Assuming successful negotiations this year (with or without industrial action) the situation will change again. All airlines will once more have to offer a better package to retain their workforce or people will do as you have suggested, and walk. BA will once again become the employer of choice (Although some say that pigs may fly!)
Whilst you - as a manager - may dread the impending pay deals at other (major) carriers and the subsequent (incessant?) demands from your workforce. The fact remains that pilots within the UK have consistently earned less than their near neighbours for many years now. If you are a pilot yourself then you are selling both you and your colleagues short unless they are earning the amounts I quoted above.
IMHO.
Underdog
I don't know anything about the working conditions within JMC, so feel free to prove me wrong - I won't be offended.
But - isn't JMC a charter operator with all the trappings of working for a charter company? i.e. Less stable rosters, frequent delays (slot restrictions etc.), frequent night flying, 2 crew ETOPS etc.
Again I don't know what the basics are for FO or Captain with JMC, or what the pension is - final salary, or less-attractive money purchase? I would suggest that any FO working a reasonably heavy jet should be worth a package of around 70k and a skipper around 100k. Does JMC offer this?
It may compare with other charter outfits - but that's only because all these companies have been getting cheap labour for the last few years. If people feel they are undervalued then of course they will whinge - people don't whinge just for the sake of it - if people are complaining they must feel they have a genuine grievance, however uncharitable you may think it.
People can see when they are being (ab)used by the companies they work for - however it is quite rare to be in a position to do something about it. That time has come though for the general pilot workforce. Traditionally just about every airline in the UK compares itself to the package BA offers. In recent years many airlines have comfortably exceeded BA renumeration wise. Assuming successful negotiations this year (with or without industrial action) the situation will change again. All airlines will once more have to offer a better package to retain their workforce or people will do as you have suggested, and walk. BA will once again become the employer of choice (Although some say that pigs may fly!)
Whilst you - as a manager - may dread the impending pay deals at other (major) carriers and the subsequent (incessant?) demands from your workforce. The fact remains that pilots within the UK have consistently earned less than their near neighbours for many years now. If you are a pilot yourself then you are selling both you and your colleagues short unless they are earning the amounts I quoted above.
IMHO.
Underdog
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Nice work Mancu
If our pay rises were based on “what the company can afford”, we wouldn’t have got anything last year, this year, or next year. How exactly would YOU determine “what the company can afford” ? Its not about “what the company can afford”, its about what the market (any market) demands, and the Pilot market is demanding massive increases in pay world-wide. Let JMC plead poverty to OPEC when crude oil rises …. get my drift ?
By the way, did you know that JMC has one of the lowest Pilot cost bases in the UK I.T. industry ? No one is on more than year 8, JMC has the lower F/O scale that most other carriers don’t, CTC cadets in abundance, pilots worked to the limits of the law, want me to keep going ?
If one Pilot resigns, how much money do you think it costs to train his replacement from interview to unsupervised line flying ? If you are a manager you’ll know the answer. You’ll also remember the Air 2000 experience wont you ? Is that what you want ?
Yes we know where the door is, but ballot box first matey !
If our pay rises were based on “what the company can afford”, we wouldn’t have got anything last year, this year, or next year. How exactly would YOU determine “what the company can afford” ? Its not about “what the company can afford”, its about what the market (any market) demands, and the Pilot market is demanding massive increases in pay world-wide. Let JMC plead poverty to OPEC when crude oil rises …. get my drift ?
By the way, did you know that JMC has one of the lowest Pilot cost bases in the UK I.T. industry ? No one is on more than year 8, JMC has the lower F/O scale that most other carriers don’t, CTC cadets in abundance, pilots worked to the limits of the law, want me to keep going ?
If one Pilot resigns, how much money do you think it costs to train his replacement from interview to unsupervised line flying ? If you are a manager you’ll know the answer. You’ll also remember the Air 2000 experience wont you ? Is that what you want ?
Yes we know where the door is, but ballot box first matey !
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Mancu,
I did not work for Airworld nor any of the other companies which make up today's JMC, but I think your comments about Airworld are just plain wrong. From my knowledge of it (which was reasonably close), I always felt it was a well-run operation and certainly some of its senior managers were (and still are) very capable individuals (and nor were they arrogant). There are more than a few people in this industry who think that the management of Airworld were completely shafted without reason when the merger took place.
I did not work for Airworld nor any of the other companies which make up today's JMC, but I think your comments about Airworld are just plain wrong. From my knowledge of it (which was reasonably close), I always felt it was a well-run operation and certainly some of its senior managers were (and still are) very capable individuals (and nor were they arrogant). There are more than a few people in this industry who think that the management of Airworld were completely shafted without reason when the merger took place.
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I actually worked for airworld and we wern't on summer only contracts. we only flew during the summer and during winter the aircraft were dry leased out while we took the winter off on full pay. i had numerous long skiing holidays and trips to the US all while being paid. additionally we always made a very tidy profit, unlike FCL or indeed Cally. our management was shafted. jmc had a terrilble late record for its first year or two. don't know what is like now but i don't suppose it's improved. still the same i guess. anyway, i voted with my feet and left. i recommend it to anybody. there is a lot of good jobs out here on a lot more money with less flying and more holidays.
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Mancu,
If you are that exasperated, you should have posted this on the jmc private forum, i'm sure you would have had some "juicy" replies.
Have you forgotten how far we have come in the 1+ years?
It is also very unfair of you to slag off the "failing airlines" as you put it, because they contributed alot of experience and made jmc a very stable and professional employer to be with, It is time to let bygones be bygones, we all work together now as a big family.
If you are that exasperated, you should have posted this on the jmc private forum, i'm sure you would have had some "juicy" replies.
Have you forgotten how far we have come in the 1+ years?
It is also very unfair of you to slag off the "failing airlines" as you put it, because they contributed alot of experience and made jmc a very stable and professional employer to be with, It is time to let bygones be bygones, we all work together now as a big family.
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mancu >>>
Fortunately, we have very few individuals with your arrogance in JMC. Consequently, I am fairly certain of your identify, but I'll keep that to myself.....for now !
[This message has been edited by rollercoaster (edited 06 July 2001).]
Fortunately, we have very few individuals with your arrogance in JMC. Consequently, I am fairly certain of your identify, but I'll keep that to myself.....for now !
[This message has been edited by rollercoaster (edited 06 July 2001).]
Union Goon
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Funny, I scanned this quickly and missed my name in the leading message a couple of times. I guess it was all the whiney ohhh the pilots are evil ungratefull SOBs that made me blow right through the message.
The airworld managment was EXCELLENT at instilling a team spirit. When we arrived in Manchester at the 4 seasons in early 98, Dewey and Saville came to breakfast with us, and welcomed us aboard, explained who they were and where they wanted to be etc. They admitted that they were undercapitalized but that they were hoping to grow. They instantly melded us into the team and we got along famously. Everyone who was there for the first season considers it to be the high water mark for their treatment (treatment is a lot more than just compensation). Bob Willis and Jon Bailey were both available to answer questions (should we tanker, tech problem with the aircraft, whadda we do now? etc..) that were completely lacking in the FCL regiem. Finally in year 3 a tanker chart came out. Big deal...
Unfortunately you can't see good treatment on a balance sheet. In season 2 and 3 they didn't say a word to us except through Daryl when we were bad to spank us. Not even a thank you when we left. So you know what? To keep us coming back they had to poney up a lot of money. Well guess what? it still aint enough! lots of people, not just me are voting with their feet. I didn't even have an application in at another airline after the first season. It wasn't untill the FCL experience that I applied to AA.
So yes, JMC pays more now. Its still a pittance. And since they smashed the team spirit and the FUN of Airworld (which, doesn't show on a balance sheet, but the sheet WAS positive) the only thing that a pilot can measure is their compensation. Its still inferior. Sorry dude.
And two weeks on two weeks off? Yeah, right, only when we get around to it. The month of May is always gone, and now they took the overtime away for it. So instead of getting over time in May, the pilots get Parks checks and get to pay for their own accomodation. Big deal.
I can continue if you like? How about the stupidity of standardizing an airbus on boeing cockpit procedures? Yeah, that's safe. As FCL pilots were not dual qualified to fly both types of planes, that was just arogant we are smart than you tripe. And its was LESS SAFE. It completely ignored the strengths of the 320, and basically threw 8 years of institutional experience out the window. That kind of knowedge is priceless. The fact that Min Brown and others stood for that crap and didn't leave is just pure luck on your part. Not skill, and they could not have been replaced.
So anyway. Lets just sum it up shall we? That brilliant management that you are cheering for, spends millions of pounds a year placating a pilot group that they might have kept happy by simply having breakfast with em to welcome them to the team?
As to the visionary management team. I think the vision was Airworld's, they set up the US rotation to keep the utilization of the aircraft up. JMC just takes the credit for it.
Yeah, that is smart managment. JMC is a good place to be FROM.
Cheers
Wino
null
The airworld managment was EXCELLENT at instilling a team spirit. When we arrived in Manchester at the 4 seasons in early 98, Dewey and Saville came to breakfast with us, and welcomed us aboard, explained who they were and where they wanted to be etc. They admitted that they were undercapitalized but that they were hoping to grow. They instantly melded us into the team and we got along famously. Everyone who was there for the first season considers it to be the high water mark for their treatment (treatment is a lot more than just compensation). Bob Willis and Jon Bailey were both available to answer questions (should we tanker, tech problem with the aircraft, whadda we do now? etc..) that were completely lacking in the FCL regiem. Finally in year 3 a tanker chart came out. Big deal...
Unfortunately you can't see good treatment on a balance sheet. In season 2 and 3 they didn't say a word to us except through Daryl when we were bad to spank us. Not even a thank you when we left. So you know what? To keep us coming back they had to poney up a lot of money. Well guess what? it still aint enough! lots of people, not just me are voting with their feet. I didn't even have an application in at another airline after the first season. It wasn't untill the FCL experience that I applied to AA.
So yes, JMC pays more now. Its still a pittance. And since they smashed the team spirit and the FUN of Airworld (which, doesn't show on a balance sheet, but the sheet WAS positive) the only thing that a pilot can measure is their compensation. Its still inferior. Sorry dude.
And two weeks on two weeks off? Yeah, right, only when we get around to it. The month of May is always gone, and now they took the overtime away for it. So instead of getting over time in May, the pilots get Parks checks and get to pay for their own accomodation. Big deal.
I can continue if you like? How about the stupidity of standardizing an airbus on boeing cockpit procedures? Yeah, that's safe. As FCL pilots were not dual qualified to fly both types of planes, that was just arogant we are smart than you tripe. And its was LESS SAFE. It completely ignored the strengths of the 320, and basically threw 8 years of institutional experience out the window. That kind of knowedge is priceless. The fact that Min Brown and others stood for that crap and didn't leave is just pure luck on your part. Not skill, and they could not have been replaced.
So anyway. Lets just sum it up shall we? That brilliant management that you are cheering for, spends millions of pounds a year placating a pilot group that they might have kept happy by simply having breakfast with em to welcome them to the team?
As to the visionary management team. I think the vision was Airworld's, they set up the US rotation to keep the utilization of the aircraft up. JMC just takes the credit for it.
Yeah, that is smart managment. JMC is a good place to be FROM.
Cheers
Wino
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I couldn't agree with you more Wino. I was at manchester during your first year and remember the house of evil quite well. happy days. anyway, to anyone interested we didn't refer to the fcl lot as the dark side but as Flying FucXXXs. It was ok though as they didn't prove us wrong. Is Min Brown still there? i would have thought he would have jacked that lot in long ago. By the way mancu if adrians in tray is full it is from very inexperienced pilots. if the captains start leaving your company will go tXts up very quickly.
Union Goon
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Heh heh,
I called the FCL lot Lying Fu***rs <G>.
More waste, Does anyone remember Roger Grey?
Had a reverser unlock as I got to the runway in MAN, Taxied off, got on the radio, He had a new release reflecting the MEL already in hand but the time I hit the remote stand, the engineers locked out the reverser and we were gone after 4 min on the stand. Made the tail end of the slot, it was unbelievable.
No one is that good now. He was amazing. They binned him too. More waste.
Cheers
Wino
I called the FCL lot Lying Fu***rs <G>.
More waste, Does anyone remember Roger Grey?
Had a reverser unlock as I got to the runway in MAN, Taxied off, got on the radio, He had a new release reflecting the MEL already in hand but the time I hit the remote stand, the engineers locked out the reverser and we were gone after 4 min on the stand. Made the tail end of the slot, it was unbelievable.
No one is that good now. He was amazing. They binned him too. More waste.
Cheers
Wino