American MD80 taxied 2 slowly for management, Capt. suspended
 

Read the full article here..

Fortunately we still have a pilot's advocate as a chief..

Please let us know if Captain O is ever involved in a parking-lot accident!!!:E

Just SLF here, but can someone explain to me why Captain O is not the one being suspended here--isn't he the one who violated regs by using his cell phone while taxiing?

Taxiing too slow--give me a break! MD-80, full of pax, possibly tankering fuel, one engine shut down to save $$$, not exactly a go-kart on the ground to begin with... take your time and get me to the gate in one piece, thanks.

Taxiing slowly, and getting time off for doing it, is a time honored tradition at contract time. Now, the pilots will feel empowered by the union's latest defiant pronouncement and at least one clown will find a way to get fired. This brave soul will wrap himself in the union mantle and the union will make some contractual concession to the company to get his job back.

It's all part of the drill...

I'm very tired:zzz:
PA

FAA can stand for F#$% American Airlines.

SHAME ON YOU AMERICAN MANAGEMENT.

you shouldn't taxi faster than a man can walk.

and the management pilot, using his cell phone in a critical phase of flight should lose his ATP ticket.

No wonder he thought the S80 was going too slowly and was frightened, the poor dear must have been woriied about stalling.

Sorry Dan, no TriStar, this time.

However, when I checked out on the B707 in the early seventies, my PanAmerican instructor mentioned that you can always tell a new Captain, as they tend to be rather careful with taxiing.
He also mentioned...'keep it that way if you know what's good for you.'
And yes, we did a last minute configuration check, then as well

About sums it up.:ok:

Which man?

Not much about the current regime running American Airlines involves Logic.

AA may not have gotten along with their employees in the past, but both sides grudgingly acknowledged that the other side was good at their jobs.

Now the management running the flight department of AA is frighteningly out of touch with reality, and quite possibly incompetent. The large number of fines from the FAA, repeated stand downs of the largest fleet etc, seam to bear that out. We have come a long way in the WRONG direction from the airline that set the record for the most consecutive operations (movements) without a fatality from May 1979 to December 1995. Somewhere recently the FARS became a GOAL instead of a Limit. And therein lies much of the problems.

The idea that slowly crossing a DEPARTURE runway might put passengers at risk is beyond belief. A couple of weeks ago Captain H. (Big muckety muck of flight) put out a "furlough mitigation proposal" that involved everyone left on the list flying MORE hours (Exactly the opposite of how you mitigate furloughs). The baldfaced lies to our face are just beyond belief.

Cheers
Wino

Probably the most astute post so far. I've been recently stuck behind AA jets at LAX and JFK taxiing at snail's pace. Point taken, we get it. The controllers are barely able to restrain themselves. We're trying to make a schedule work so we can get paid, and you guys insist on involving us in your intra-company dispute, one that has nothing to do with us.

I sympathize, really, but do you have to jam the entire national airspace system just to prove your point? Is there not another way?

AirBubba are you having a go on taxi speeds or am I reading your post wrong? Doing it every day I have no problem here in Europe with them,Being asked 'ready for an imeditate' and then taking your time. Hence putting other people under pressure I find this should be showed more interest in this sort of thing than what is posted. Sorry if i'm wrong in understanding of your post, Our SOP's is walking pace, And taking the runway and taxing to stand bearing in mind walking pace from other aircarft taking off before us.

Add SFO and DEN to the list in the past week or so. To the point in DEN that the controller asked him if he could taxi and faster. Said yes and continued at a snails pace.

We'll know for sure when the start doing transcons at 16,000 as legend would have it at UA during the summer of love.

In the time ive posted I didnt notice the local dispute surfacing, Sorry I'm not trying to be one sided.Follow the taxing rules in different SOP, I think it is a management problem to sortout with the FAA and all to annoying just do your job.Hopefully someone will se sense!

Whats all this about 'walking pace'? You guys having a bath? (rhymes with laugh) :ok:

We let the aircraft accelerate to 30 kts and then brake to 10 kts. (taxiway permitting of course!)

Places like BCN, AMS, MAD have an 8 mile taxi route, surely you guys dont taxi at a walking pace ALL the time?? :)

Va va vooooom taxi...
 

Surprising that 411A (and myself) survived flying the 707 with non-existant CRM basics and lack of SOP for taxi speeds.
xxx
:}
Happy contrails (and smoking rubber on taxiways)

I posted taxi at a speed that a man can walk.

I've seen 10 knots as max taxi speed (per ops manual) for planes with INS readouts...5 knots in the gate area.

30 knots is a bit fast...especially with FA's in the back...have to stop? all would fall down and YOU have paperwork...I HATE PAPERWORK.

Southwest taxis too fast. I've even heard someone call V1 while taxiing!

the industry is falling apart...and just to remind people, it was a management pilot that crashed an american md80 at little rock. get my drift?

Couldnt resist! Isn't SOP in RYR to accel to V1 then brake to 80 kts?

Serious note though - is there not a mechanism to bring action against the Mgmnt pilot. I would have thought it was an MORable event in violation of the terms of the AOC (do you guys call it an AOC in the USA?). A quiet word to the FAA is not the same thing as putting the wheels in motion and while management may hate a "work to rule" if indeed this was, there is simply no reason to bring action for it - sort the :mad: problem out at root cause.

RIX

sevenstrokeroll;
Both fatigue and cockpit authority gradient were cited as contributing factors in the report.
Yep. Expediency seems to have some currency in the cockpit. Before retiring I had noticed a significant slackness in SOPs from the usual crispness I was used to.

High taxi speeds, (above 30kts), along with the obvious risks, result in high bead temperatures, especially at high weights, which, over time, can lead to tire failure. Damage from extremely high bead temperatures, like ply delamination, is not easily diagnosed by visual inspection. Goodyear published a paper years ago showing a direct relationship between taxi-speed and bead (not internal tire) temperature. The graphs are revealing.

We've all seen "time-building" taxiing before. Unless one is in the cockpit, we don't know the real reason so unless it's a safety issue, (incursion, etc), the benefit of the doubt is the only acceptable response. The action on the part of the checkpilot reveals some very serious disconnects and underlying power-struggles at American which have clearly found expression in the cockpit, on the taxiways and, one wonders, on the runway as well? Regardless - pretty poor show in not sorting it out in other, equally effective but more discrete ways.

ANZ Ops say that an aircraft can't taxi faster than 5 knots until entering the maneouvering area. i think..

If the walking man is Chuck Norris, then we're all screwed! hah.

Not sure what you are referring to with 'bead temp', but 30kts isn't too fast when you have a 2 mile straight line to taxi along!

The braking technique, 30 to 10kts, is an airbus recommended technique and works very well. The procedure came about with carbon brakes whereby brake wear is primarily determined by the number of applications. Less wear takes place once the brakes are at a reasonable temperature and this is achieved by the above technique.

For the sceptics, I dont advocate 30 kts on a twisty, bumpy taxi way, and believe it or not, we even consider the cabin crew when we taxi!! :ok:

As SLF, whatever the rights and wrongs of this incident, what about the pilot who used his mobile to report the incident?

There are threads galore on this forum about using mobiles on a plane. Passengers are (rightly) removed from aircraft for doing so.

And yet here is someone who should know better who is quite blatantly breaking the rules. Why should pax not use mobiles if pilots can?

I hate mobiles and have never used one on, or near, a plane. But the actions of this guy surely undermine the argument that they can be dangerous on a plane. :confused:

The really funny thing, is both aircraft in question did not have a gate waiting for them.

So the chief pilot involved who used his cellphone, was rushing, just so that he could go sit somewhere waiting for a gate! That is something pax REALLY hate. As long as the airplane is moving they feel like they are still getting somewhere, but to sit in a penalty box waiting for a gate drives em CRAZY!

In January we were told by management to SLOW DOWN. As an airline we were taxiing too fast. So go figure.

So far, we have learned that the chief pilot in question was a menace to public safety, AND was not doing a good job to serve his own passengers.

Cheers
Wino

I think if I was the LAX pilot, my response to it all would have been to file a formal complaint with the FAA about breach of safety by the management pilot. Probably a career-limiting move though, so it's a good job it wasn't me.

Man in glass cockpit shouldn't throw stones...

If the nose comes up when you pull back, you're taxiing too fast.

Taxi at walking speed is what I used to teach in piston singles to new students who were still trying to turn on the ground with the yoke, were not used to brake asymmetry, and had never had wings and wingtips to worry about. I agree, it may be a bit over the top when you have to taxi 10,000 feet for takeoff, five times a day, and on a schedule in a jet. More than 5 knots but less than V1 sounds like a good rule of thumb!:ok:

If I may pop my head up and ask - as frequent AA SLF always trying to gain a better understanding of what goes on up front - what is the benefit of taxiing slowly?

Apologies if I shouldn't be asking questions here.

(Tongue partly in cheek.)
Benefit of taxiing slowly? Takes longer to get there!

Seriously though, there are several situations where taxiing slowly is advised.
On icy or contaminated surfaces.
To provide separation from aircraft ahead to avoid blowback and refreeze of snow or other precip.
Near other aircraft or obstructions.
In poor visibility.
Etc, etc.

In other words, when common sense and good airmanship indicate.

Of course there have been some stories of crew taxiing slowly to send a message to management on a particular issue. ;)

Heck, if I'd had someone taxiing in front of me at 5mph, I would have tried to overtake them on the first bend.:E

Now that the GPS will tell us our ground speed, surely, there must be a reasonable maximum speed for a given type. Get behind a slower type, and despite one's enthusiasm, that would be the new datum.

And as for the phone. Try offering to taxi for a skipper going back to the pan while pouring then drinking a double double scotch, and being told to keep yer hands off the tiller when he veered to the edge. CRM? Dodging the captain's fist was CRM in those days. And that was one of the London airports and a shiny new jet. A mere phone call seems fairly innocuous apart from the attitude of the man doing it in the first place.

From the driver seat up front, despite having nearly totally flat terrain for 2KM in every direction, when you couple checklists, radio communications, performance data checks, generally poor visibility aft of your shoulders, time zone changes and fatigue, I still amazed when I find myself suddenly near a B747-400 or A340-600 and thinking to myself "where it the **** did he come from? "

>> Man in glass cockpit shouldn't throw stones...

haha!!

The management pilot should be written up for use of a mobile phone whilst in control of an aircraft. Was he taxiing it at the time?

The Captain taxiing slowly could have had any number of reasons he was taxiing slow. It seems to me that the management pilot is looking to kiss some a$$ to try and either get a promotion or a pay rise. :rolleyes:

ECAM Actions.

Aircraft must have better rubber these days. In the 70s, and 80s, you sure didn't want to be taxiing at 30kts out to the "Reef" Runway at PHNL. You'd blow all the tires on take-off. We were "limited" to 15kts on the way out there.

If I may pop my head up and ask - as frequent AA SLF always trying to gain a better understanding of what goes on up front - what is the benefit of taxiing slowly?

Apologies if I shouldn't be asking questions here.
********************************************************

Reply -

In this case the gate was occupied. It's like racing to a red light, what's the point since you'll have to wait anyway?

First off, management pilots, sometimes known as chief pilots, mainly do paperwork. there are two kinds of pilots, some are good at flying and rotten at paperwork, others are great at paperwork and rotten are flying...rarely do you have both...though some are rotten at paperwork and flying!

now:

why taxi slow?

flight attendants might fall down if you taxi too fast and then suddenly have to stop! lots of paperwork involved, ergo a good pilot doesn't taxi fast.

airplanes are quite good at turning in the sky...on the ground they are just fair.

long taxis at high speeds with frequent braking can increase the heat of the tires and the brakes...on takeoff the brakes might not be cool enough for a maximum effort aborted (rejected) takeoff. cool brakes are good, hot brakes are bad. using alot of brakes on landing and taxi in, can still effect the next takeoff if it is soon after landing. good pilots know this.

and the big one...IF YOU TAXI FAST and can't stop in time to avoid a collision, you might be dead. especially while crossing a runway...though sometimes ATC makes you "expedite" across the runway to make traffic flow.

And sometimes pilots are pissed off about having a pay cut of 50percent for 7 years and want to make mangement suffer.

BUT, American, once a great airline, has mangement / labor problems. shame on management!

Maybe for the individual craft. Such "techniques" have been found to be the major reason leading to unnecessary road traffic jams.
I hate to taxi behind such a technician, just imagine a few busses in line doing this stunt each one at its preferred moment.
" ... catering: please have supplementary sick-bags for uplift at our destination ... "

Wino is correct. We've been told to be careful taxiing, as flight attendants have had some injuries during taxi w/i the last year. Further, management has attempted to counter union information, by making it sound that the Captain actually caused a safety hazard. Apparently, an aircraft was cleared into position and hold (line up and wait), and the management Captain (#2 to be cleared to cross the runway) claims his crew and passenger's safety was compromised. They're hanging their hat on the supposed violation of the runway incursion statement in our FOM.

It's all quite silly, as we're NOW supposed to be responsible for the aircraft BEHIND us!! Yeah right- other than not blowing them too hard w/ thrust - I think not. If Captain Osborne (mngmnt) felt his crew/pax were in danger, he should have held short and told tower. Instead, he violates a Federal Aviation Regulation, and calls his fellow chief pilots, who show up at the other Captain's gate and remove him from his sequence.

As mentioned- during contract negotations- hostages WILL be taken.
This is definitely one. They continue to attempt a diversion/depletion of APA's attention and resources and will- with hostage taking and violating contractual provisions that we already own, hoping union concessions will follow in order to get them back.

Typical immoral, union-busting management techniques.

So far, APA is NOT interested in negotiating against ourself. That's a good thing.

KC135777

Could well be...:}

One wonders...is the APA still looking for that 53% increase?:ugh:

Taxi Speed
 

The most important word is APPROPRIATE. There all sorts of considerations that affect "appropriate" including cabin crew, aircraft weight, surface conditions, congestion, taxiway width / camber, distance to taxi, carbon or steel brakes? So taxiing at anywhere from 5 knots to around 30 knots could be appropriate under varying circumstances. Turning off a cold, wet HST scares the hell out of me .... aircraft tyres are designed for going in straight lines and not around corners!

FCTM states: "The appropriate taxi speed depends on turn radius and surface
condition.Taxi speed should be closely monitored during taxi out, particularly when the
active runway is some distance from the departure gate. Normal taxi speed is
approximately 20 knots, adjusted for conditions. On long straight taxi routes,
speeds up to 30 knots are acceptable, however at speeds greater than 20 knots use
caution when using the nose wheel steering tiller to avoid overcontrolling the nose
wheels. When approaching a turn, speed should be slowed to an appropriate speed
for conditions. On a dry surface, use approximately 10 knots for turn angles
greater than those typically required for high speed runway turnoffs.
Note: High taxi speed combined with heavy gross weight and a long taxi distance
can result in tire sidewall overheating. At maximum weights with taxiing
distances greater than 4500 meters, use 20 knots as maximum taxi speed."

I was originally taught that taxi speed varies exponentially as one's distance from the CFI's office!

It all depends on the situation but I have never seen the point of fast taxi speeds when you are running early. Also sensible taxi speeds give you more thinking time.

As a passenger I have always said I can tell a lot about the pilot by the way in which the a/c is taxied to the holding point.