Ryanair Very Low Fuel Landing
 

Anyone with details concerning the Ryanair Frankfurt Base Captain who landed with less than 800 kgs of fuel? :\

whitebraz

Why don't you ring up the EDFH base captain and get the facts first hand and share with us.:ok:

what's that, about 17 minutes of flying time?

did he taxi to the gate ok?

how would anyone know this unless:

he was atc

he was monitoring atc

he was the copilot

800Kgs usable fuel or 800Kgs left in the tanks ???

As much as I dislike Ryanair, even I don't believe this story without some evidence.

Evidence
 

There are pictures of the Tech Log

Pictures from a tech log;)? Uh huh. Whose tech log? but seriously folks, if this tale is true, I sure would like to know the circumsances behind the crew's decision not to divert to their alternate when bingo fuel level was reached.

Are there any "incentives" to arrive with a low..ish [alleged] fuel state ?

Landing below final fuel reserve always produces an interesting ASR.

They are always worth reading. I am sure there is a perfectly good reason why this happened :confused:

I think LHR suffered a few years back from a number of low fuel states on arrival from a certain carrier's longhaul flights from the far east. :oh:

Depending on the wx etc, I would be tempted to stay at Frankfurt if I was low on fuel than waste some it flying to an alternate.

If the delay was due to ATC congestion the question is why didn't they declare an emergency.

In any case minimum fuel operation on 737NG is 1800Kg so....you are in non-normal operation then. You have to take some decision and to talk to ATC at least.

I'm not on the Boeing, BUT how can you say that 1800 kg it min fuel? Does that not depend on how far away your alt is, or IF you have an alternate? I'm not a big RYR fan , but this seems to be another one of those situations where we have no facts and people are jumping the gun....:suspect:


CP

r.j


How do you arrive at 1800kgs for the -800 NG ??

FFR+ Alt fuel = CMR

Depending upon the flying time, and landing weight to No.1 div, your CMR could be under 1.8

Ryanair no.1 div from Prestwick is Glasgow. 23nm as the crow flies. Depending upon actual routing, flying time could be less than 10 minutes if landing on rw 05.

Having said that, anything under 2.0 MT and still airborne is likely to concentrate the mind !!:ugh:

totally normal to have a CMR under 1800 kgs
usual to have one 1500kgs or lower

how much fuel you take is a different matter.....

1800 kg of fuel (900 kg each side) is the limit for the 'low fuel' warning to go off in the NG

[Edit - This is from my companies QRH for the NG (specifically 907 kg in a main tank), so I guess there are different options thnat you can go for]

Actually, the 907 kg (2000lbs each main tank) low fuel warning is a figure that came about for ETOPS certification for the NG, that's the understanding in my company anyway. I certainly know of 737NGs where the low fuel warning triggers at 1000lbs in the main tank, not sure about the Ryanair ones, so stating that 900kg in each main tank is into the NNC is not strictly true.:= Edited for kakatoa, cheers, doh!

It's totally not true. Manufacturing fictitious figures like 1800 kg minimum 737 is nonsense. The fact it sets off a Low Fuel Warning is nothing to do with minimum figures- it just makes the digits go a pretty yellow colour. The usual rules are 'Pan' if you are likely to go below minimum reserve which is usually 30 minutes, and 'Mayday' if you are going to go below.

captjns- you show a touching reliance on 'diverting will make it all OK'. In several experiences of diverting, it often ends up being a crisis of its own. Sometimes it's better to hang on to what you have rather than open a door to another houseful of problems!

That's interesting, i only know the 1000lbs figure for the low fuel warning as well, and none of our NGs flies ETOPS nor do we plan to fly ETOPS with them. But lowest i had for total reserve fuel so far was 1.900 kg and that was for a diversion from TXL to SXF (just a short hop over berlin). We expect to get a low fuel warning though when we have to use diversion fuel, final reserve is usually way below the low fuel warning threshold.

CMRs of 1600/1700kg are by no means unusual - it depends on div distance and landing weight. Landing with that WILL have the 'yellow' fuel readings and is perfectly safe and 'legal'.

Denti - I believe ALL NGs leave Boeing field 'ETOPS capable' so that is why. I assume there is a software option to change it, but why bother?

Another stunning FIRST APPEARANCE by a poster:mad:. There may be a story, but I doubt it.

EDIT: Crossed with jock there! 800kgs a side may well be a total 'non-event', but 800kgs total, of course.............................

Your final reserve fuel + diversion fuel (or flight plan fuel without an alternate) may be less than 1800 kgs on a NG, BUT you are then flying with a FUEL LOW caution and have to follow the QRH procedure for that. Look it up. It does restrict the way you fly the aircraft.

While I might get a FUEL LOW caution during a diversion, I always carry enough fuel so I land at my destination with at leat 1800 kgs during normal operations. That's airmanship. To me.

BINGO! I was wandering what that meant when my F-16 was shouting out "BINGO BINGO" I thought it was Gambling onliine :p

Manadasytem and some others

Read the above posts re updated low fuel warning levels on the NG. easyJet are modifying their fleet so the warning comes on when one one main tank hits 453kg. I daresay other operators are the same or have been for some time.

Not all the fleet is modifyied yet so the CFPs still contain extra fuel to cater for low CNRs (below 1814) which will allow you to land above 1814kg. Once the fleet is modifyed that extra fuel will disapear as I daresay you will never find a CNR less than 907!!

You are quite right that if you get a low fuel warning you should run the QRH. Thats why easyJet allowed for extra fuel to prevent this as it was felt crews should not be dispatching into a situation were they would probably have to run a non normal checklist. That still has little direct bearing over whether you declare an emergency though (although you could if you wished to) as its generaly understood that a PAN PAN PAN with low fuel means you may land below CNR and a MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY with low fuel means you will land below final reserve.

Diverting when you reach CNR is a choice not a necessity. You may have an EAT a few minutes away and the weather is fine so you would land with more fuel in the tanks than if you divert. In other circumstances diverting would be the better choice. You have to weigh up all the factors and make your decision.

Bingo1, Bingo2 or chicken ?

After reading some input from Boeing guys.....Jumping the gun seems like just what it is.

Someone was saying something along the lines "I carry more to land with at least 1800 kg, thats airmanship" I can only agree, IF CNR is 1800. If CNR is lower and there is no specific reason to carry more, I'll carry enough to land with CNR.
However, maybe they carried fuel to land with 2000 kg, what do we know? Plan for landing with 2000, get a lower flight level then planned, arr at hold with 1700, get EAT 30 min away, nice weather, lots of runways, decide to stay in hold and use alt fuel since landing is assured. If plan does not work, request priority and land. Fair enough?

Changing the 'LOW' setting guys - does that mean that the QRH is now only actioned at 453kg or do you still do it at 907kg?

In the Ryanair NG's the fuel low warning will pop up if the main tanks have less than 453 kg's (or 1000lbs) in either tank.

Also Ryanair policy is to plan your flight not to arrive with less than 2000 kg's of fuel remaining so they should never have less than 2000 kg's of alternate fuel when arriving at their destination.


Seems a bit of a risk with only one runway though doesn't it? Sure one MCC instructor once told me "meh, if worst comes to worst you can always land on the taxiway" :}

wo ping, if this happened three times in the last two weeks to you, maybe from now on you should expect this;-)

Our fleet in FR is also modified to the 453kg low fuel warning.
Interesting is that no FR flight is planned to land at Dest with less than 2000kg
So even when diversion fuel would be 600kg, this would normally be increased to around 1100kg on our flightplan.
So 1100kg plus the 30min would end up with more than 2000kg on any flight.
What I hear from other guys here that's quite a lot.
Lorel

Im waiting for the facts to emerge. They may have landed with that amount of fuel but thats not to say its due to crew irresponsibility. There are any number of reasons out of the crews' hands that could lead to that situation. What would be bad would be if it transpired that there was no mayday.

What's the fuel burn like on the 737 when taxiing? If there was a long distance and/or delays on the way to stand, that might account for some of it. I've been below CMR in the tech. log when landing with planned remainder at LHR, JFK, etc. even with an engine shut down when possible.

BOAC
 

QRH is actioned when the LOW warning comes on, which will be at 453kg.

As mentioned before, the 907 figure is an ETOPS requirement.

Thank you 5150 - as I thought, and that trips my 'logic' CB!:confused: The drill is for 'Low Fuel State' (for pump cover etc) and if 907kg is considered 'low'......................? Pumps will risk being 'unconvered' whether you are ETOPS or not - they don't know:). Personally I look at 1000kg to action. Nice ROUND figure.

RTO
 

"Landing at destination without alternate requires 30min holding fuel+15min

1800Kgs should be spot on for the NG"

That depends on what type of NG you are flying and the weight. On a not so heavy 700, the figure is around 1400-1500 kg's.

Quite a few of the FR bases publish a fuel league, and you will often see the base cpt at the top end of that league… quite a few of those base cpt are line trainers; ie not always flying the most fuel efficient profiles (for training reasons)… so they must be doing something just a bit better than the rest of the FR drivers !!!:E

Then there is the fuel leaflet from the DCP handed out 2 weeks ago at STN, it apparently now has spread to other bases…:ouch:

All that said, I am sure FR do not want their drivers landing with less than 1136 kgs (total) in the tanks… (Apparently airport elevation at HHN will make the 1136 kgs. number slightly different according to the DCP) anyone appreciate the irony of the statement !:oh:

But still no back info on 800 kgs. actually happened!!! :rolleyes:

heard this rumour over a month ago...although the rumour was 900 kilos

think it went something like.... plog fuel to iffy weather airport, tailwind componet putting ac out of limits by 1 knot when on approach followed by diversion to non precision airport again with iffy weather..followed by another go around...followed eventually by a landing

but thats all rumour

Question is....
 

Boys, girls & uncle dickie

Don’t mix JAR-OPS fuel requirements and B737NG limitations and non-normal operations!!!

I don’t care about their alternate fuel and final reserve fuel now; I was just talking about QRH.

QRH NNC 12.9

MAIN TANK FUEL PUMP switches.......All ON
CROSSFEED selector.......................Open

Apply thrust changes slowly and smoothly.
If a climb is needed, maintain the minimus pitch attitude needed for safe flight.

END of QRH

The question is: “Is it legal to plan a flight with FR+Alt. F. less than 1800Kg?”

Imagine yourself diverting. You have a lot of staff to care about and as a bonus do the NNC and take care about pitch attitude, slow acceleration and so on. HAHA

That's all! Fly safe!

- which is why I never accepted BA's policy of 'committing' to LGW (single runway) using LHR as the 'second' runway/s, and thus being encouraged to linger at LGW down to 1100kg ish (final reserve 734) until the runway blocked with a tyre burst on take-off ahead of you.:ugh:

A lot of the BA brainwashed cadet co-pilots thought it a good idea................

A hero lives for ever
 

JAR Ops allows 2 approaches and then diversion.

Is 2 classified as "several"?

I think not!

On that basis, isn't that what reserve fuel is about, he clearly landing with sufficient fuel. You could ask whether the poor weather at destination and alternate were forecast and if so should he have carried more fuel? But that is what pilots are paid their money for, even in Ryanair.

JAR OPS the Captains Bible
 

The greatest threat to aviation safety are pilots with the brain of a lawyer. They think reality is written down in the books, it’s a bit like religious fanatics.


Below 30 min you have to declare at least a PAN........he didn't

Forecasted Wx is irrelevant in this case. At TOD you have a clear picture of what your options are.

2 minor items...........

flying headbutt got his/her lbs/kgs conversion a little confused .
453 kgs = 1000 lbs and 907kgs = 2000lbs , and not 500 /1000 lbs .

BOAC is probably correct to assume that all NGs leave the factory ' NG capable' but in case there are any readers not familiar with ETOPS requirements I would like to point out that some NGs only have 1 FMC fitted and are therefore not ETOPS capable.

Keep safe