Lufthansa Hamburg
 

Somebody told me yesterday the captain involved in the near crash in Hamburg a few weeks back, was sacked.
Can anyone confirm ?

If so, do you feel any better?

Feel any better? What kind of question is that?
For all of us it would mean that the certain rules have been broken although all the massmedia and Lufthansa PR were saying all around that it was a masterpiece of flying skills and/or airmanship...

But at what point do you reject the landing?, that is why they pay the big bucks for four gold rings on your jacket. IMHO should have never even tried, Bremen was a good alternate that day and would probably saved a wing tip scrape.

I seriously doubt it.

Anyone who calls that a 'near crash' is talking out of their a** and I'd ignore anything else they said.

For all what I recall EDDW/BRE was closed due to the storm. This does not rpt not mean that he should have aborted EDDH/HAM - I simply wasn't there and therefore refuse to judge whether his decision to try EDDH was right or wrong.

Folks

Spare me all the speculations about what the bloke should or shouldn't have done. It's been discussed here at lentgh.
All I'm interested in is wether the guy got the sack or not. A german friend told me he had been and I just want to find out wether it's true or not. No more.


Hetfield

You obviously had a bad hair day. Don't take it out on me will you ?

If so, everybody at LH and the VC (our union) would have heard so through the gossiping circuit; I have not heard a thing like it. Also, it seems very unlikely from all the bits of info that I picked up here and there from inside my company.
So my calculated guess right now is: NO he has not been sacked.



Oh, and to all my honourable colleagues stating misinformed facts and to whom such an approach could certainly never ever have happened because they only take perfect decisions: Please wait untill the BFÜ-report has been published, and then instead of judging this crew, please think of how you will learn from the incident, and will try to prevent it from happening to your silly a**es during your career. Thank you very much.


P77

Pegasus77 is right, with every word he wrote...

Nic

Pegasus77, you are absolutely right! Would appreciate if everybody had this attitude.

Seems to be something of these days, "always the other who is at fault" Tell people sometimes "to look in the mirror first" before yelling and screaming.

My thougts.

cross wind limit
 

Would like to know if in Lufthansa F/O have a cross wind limit above which he/she can't land the plane. in CX even a 7000 hours (like a friend of mine) F/O has such limit. When I read that The Captain corrected and save that aproach I asked myself why he was not landing in first place.
correct?

:D A true word of a prophet. Indeed. :D

Who needs a report to make a judgement? The crew received the current weather report and still the FO was the flying pilot, did I miss something? :confused:

Yup
 

P77's point I think

Is it not true that under demading conditons (to which both crewmembers have been trainded equally) it is beneficial to let handling to the second-in-command so that the true captain is in position to call a go around while not being distracted by the petty job of steering the ship?

Is it not true that if a captain screws up the FO has a complicated CRM position and limited experinece to force a go-around? How long a delay is there between sanding a winglet and tearing a wing apart?

Judgement is superfluous. We want to learn and avoid. For that a full set of information will be needed and surely is to be found in the BFU report when it sees the light of a day. I hope to see answers whether:

• LH publishes operational and final x-wind limits to crew
• the actual wind was beyond demonstrated Airbus value
• an alternate runway was available
• the scrape occured with dual input

FD (the un-real)

I think modern crew resource management has now agreed that during conditions as stated, the crew is better served to let the FO drive, this philosophy has nothing to do do with being the operating pilot in dangerous wind conditions, is that how you operate, I hope your not an airline pilot. :rolleyes:

Listen guys

I merely asked a question following a rumour I heard. I'm happy with the answer I got. All this ranting about what should / shouldn't have been done is pointless, often coming from people who wouldn't find their own bottom in broad daylight.
It would be better if the thread was closed Dr Prune.

I have also heard nothing coming down the grapevine..

I suspect if it were true, I should have.

OORW

That attitude, right there, is a seven-word summation of the troubling state of our industry.

I would submit that the owners of the aircraft, and the passengers strapped in the back, would not find anything petty in the control of the jet on that day.

I am not pointing fingers - my airline has lost quite a few hulls (and banged up a few more) in the landing phase, thanks to a lack of skills in the petty job of steering the ship.

Hand-flying skills are more important now than ever. You can't wish that away....

Flight detent,
Whilst I fully agree with your and others sentiments, that no-one should judge the crew, before actually knowing what went on (so I wont judge)
the quoted statement of yours is unbelievable. Please tell me your airline, so I can avoid sending my family along with you guys!
ANY FO, that has a problem with calling for a go-around when conditions warrant, is NOT competent enough to sit in the right seat, with my family in the back!! Period!

Rgds, MDD

MDD: I do not really think there's need to get personal. FO (me) and captain position is not a symmetrical one and no amount of clasroom CRM will ever change that. Starting with the Los Rodeos tragedy we have learned about the need to mitigate the associated risks and it is now "assertivness" for FO and "leadership" for CP, thanks god.

To err is human and my grandpa used to say that intelligent people learn from their mistakes but the smart ones learn from the mistakes of others. While flying we do not have much playroom to make and learn from ours, so the second part is bloody important. With utmost respect to the great aviators you captains are, sharpness of your handling skills compared to a recently trained 25 y FO is open for discussion (which I refuse to engage in!). The undisputable true benefit lies with your experience, personal maturity and operational judgement. As a team we need to utilize the best tools for the job at hand. If situation requires a stop-guard, it is the captain who is better equipped for the job (which does not say that the FO is inable to do so!) and faster to act; on occasions time does count.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68y-vZNtd7s

Severeal things probably went wrong even before the video starts. Please note that the touchdown is quite reasonable side-wise. It is possible that a CP would sweettalk the FO through such a stunt and forget to properly asess the LDA because he is burdened by fiddling with the sidestick. It is possible that the FO would be blasted away, his hormones flying throug the roof and fail to judge LDA as well. On the other hand, I believe it is guaranteed that a non-handling CP would have put a stop to it well before crossing the threshold.

If a situation requires the captiain to handle
- to a certain extent the crew looses the best guard there is
- is probably beyond the training scope of both pilots
- most likely should not have been allowed to develop in first place
- the combination of above places everybody on a very thin ice

I'll wait for the report to learn. Most eagerly to read about the published crosswind limits.

FD (the un-real)

Acutally that was tongue in cheek comment, sorry to upset.Whoever would try ceratinly is grossly mistaken. Yet, no matter how superb the flying skills are they will not protect you from making a mistake. Czar 52 refers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:F...ldB52Crash.jpg And when the day comes, we need somebody to cry foul aloud. Handling skills do not enter the equation, assuming they have been well sorted out a long time ago as they should be.

Flight Detent,

Sorry, didnt mean to get personal. :sad: I am an FO just as you, but if I had problems with calling for a go-around, I trust that you wouldn t send your family along with me too? I wouldn t, if I was you!

Rgds MDD

Point taken, in fact a wouldn't have phrased it better. I had the sour opportunity to call one and there is a lot of considerations before we do. That takes tiny amounts of time even which may be critical. CP through their vast experience enjoy nominated position that removes certain think-do compared to our job. That makes them better suited for the job. That's mine. ;)

Sorry... I'm primed for a fight on this subject here at PPrune. My irony radar is broken.

As for the B-52 crash - I flew with a guy who had flown extensively with that captain for many years. He said that the deceased's hand-flying skills were the best - a true stick-and-rudder man. So the whole story is a true cautionary tale for all professional pilots.....

Although the story I heard is that he started to believe his own hype a little too much towards the end. He thought that his undeniably enviable skills were better than they actually were, with tragic results.

The best hand-flying skills in the world cannot argue with maths and gravity.

Confusing ambition with ability = accidents

As for the Captain of the LH A320, the story as I understand it warrants his sacking, I am a nobody from down under however the story seems to have a terrile and familiar ring to it. The F/O in this case should never have been put in that situation by her Captain and he should have had the balls to do something about it. I wonder if some male ego was at play....yes I know, not possible:=

Disclaimer: the reports I received were from an industry source but not close enough to say without doubt. So my comments above are speculation based at best as are everyone elses.

J

...
On an Airbus?
:{:{:{


live 2 fly 2 live

FD, thanks for that animation
Any idea what was the weather like ?
Would you know the RWY / Airport ?

... Any incident / accident report ?

Not quite. AB 14th FS Conference CD (OCT 07). Huge amounts of sudying material Irkutsk, Sochi, Naples among others. It is not a public domain type of data either. What I read in the included presentation, VOR/D changed at 12 NM to reciporcal visualb to shorten track with significant tailwind. 3000 fpm ROD at 1500 AFE; 192 kt / CF2 @ 500 ft; CF full at 140 ft / 173 kt now below profile CP takes over and lands.

FD (the un-real)

Check PM.

Well ... quite a few hint for a GA call, but as you say, the big problem was here: "CP takes over and lands"
Thanks for the PM, actually, I think I've seen already a copy of that CD somewhere around ... Let me have a look.

The German report became available in the meantime, an English summary and link at:

http://avherald.com/h?article=402e5972/0028

Servus, Simon

The PF applied 28 degrees of rudder deflection? In my plane thats more than full rudder travel.

I find it strange to read this again. I always fail to understand why the decisions of other crews made at different times and with different types of aircraft should have an effect on your own decision. In Faro, a Martinair DC10 asked the same question and it ended badly as well..

Just a small caveat
 

The usage of the expression "Female Pilot" grated on me a bit.

It is just that in German, Pilots do have Sex: (bad pun intended, sorry) The word in German is "Pilotin" for a woman instead of "Pilot" for a man.

The constant translation of "Pilotin" as "female Pilot" does annoy me, even if it is technically correct.

I'm not usually anally retentively PC, but I do firmly believe that in the Cockpit, there is (professionally) absolutely no difference between Men and Women.

Regards, OORW

The AOM crosswind landing limits are 33/38, the actual value was 28/47. What more needs to be said?

The tanslation 'female pilote' is in fact not correct: it doesn't take account of the connotation it adds in the English language. In German however, not using 'Pilotin' (the female pilot) could lead to misinterpretation ('the pilot was masculine') in English it doesn 't. So no need to add a qualification that can be misconstrued here.

I am a frequent SLF interpreter, hence this second remark.

Fly safely.

You may find they are not limits; they are max demonstrated.

Yes Fantom, you re right, they are not limits, but letting a relatively inexperienced FO demonstrate a higher limit of this magnitude seems like stretching it too far.

True but wonder why does the LH ops manual disregard or allow the gusts - brave company that disregards the max demonstrated crosswinds...

The fact that at many points two people seem to have been flying the aircraft is interesting in the context of a side stick fly-by-wire ac. Would that happen on a conventional set of controls or would the LHS have just taken control?