UK Security, MORs and CHIRP
 

I've just read the Autumn edition of CHIRP and a large portion of it is devoted to concerns regarding security procedures in the UK. Specifically, how the continual harassment of pilots is detrimental to flight safety, particularly with regard to distraction management.

The concern of the CHIRP board appears to be that the Permanent Secretary to the Department for Transport is "not persuaded that the problems reported through this Programme [CHIRP] translated into a real flight safety risk."

To paraphrase CHIRP, the MOR scheme is not reserved for incidents of a mainly technical nature. Any incidents involving security checks that individuals feel have a consequent effect on flight safety can and should be reported to the CAA using the MOR scheme. The scheme includes the facility to report confidentially directly to the Authority (CAP382 refers).

Please ASR/MOR ALL security related issues which have a potential effect on flight safety and forward them to BALPA where possible. There are only two ways which will ensure a sensible and appropriate level of security is applied to pilots - a paper trail and delays.

Danny,

Any chance this could be made a "Sticky" on R&N.

DfT and CAA head in the sand attitude!
 

Regreatbly I have had to file a number of reports on the secutity issue, the worst involved a BAA airport and the security management took 4 mounths to reply!

Having considered these security "events" of a "human factor" nature CHIRP seemed to be the correct place to make that report, I was under the mis-plased impresion that the DfT and CAA would read and take note of the reports in CHIRP....................... It would seem that this is not the case and this if the latest editorial in CHIRP is correct (and I have no reason to doubt that).

So I am pondering my next move , do I go back into my records and MOR all the past "events" just to get them on record or do File an MOR stating that the DfT and the CAA are not doing the job that they should be by not reading and taking into account the reports in CHIRP?

Answers on a postcard please!

There is the uncomfortable question to answer: if you were so adversely affected by your experiences in UK security that you need to make a MOR, was it therefore justifiable to operate the schedule, or should you have delayed?

I see now MAN security have unilaterally decided to make life harder by restricting to one crew bag only through security? Or certainly no hold baggage through the Xray machine. Security has become an empire unto itself, put in place to make aviation harder for the employees.

^^^

Restrictions on the number of items has absolutely nothing to do with improving security, does it? :ugh: Surely searching two small bags is easier than one large packed to the brim - rediculous.

Perhaps people are guilty of trying too hard to keep schedual despite the increased difficulties getting through security...

If security is slowing you down, take a deep breath, accept it and allow slots to be missed.

On one occasion I delayed the aircraft and went for a coffee to cool off, this was a direct result of the mistake that I made if flying directly after a very big problem with security at another airport.

I reported both inccidents to the company and one CHIRP but security seem immune from any critical comment however in this politicly correct world I am going to take a new tack and use the discrimination laws to defend myself, it is clear that pilots are the best "sport" for the power drunk low life (about 10% of the security operatives) and Captains are the best of all to provoke, no doubt this makes the best banter in the canteen. So next time I will hit them with the discrimination card either on the captain grounds or as I have a lot of metalwork inside my leg discrimination of the disabled.

When they get a bit sharp wih you it is also worth pointing to the notices about abuse of staff and asking them to stay within the rules that they will apply to you if you so much as raise an objection.

The good news is that MAN security will have to comply with the new DfT rules for crew, two bags now allowed when on or within 24 hours of duty. we shall see if the power drunk half witts have taken the time to read the new rules!

Is that confirmed, 2 bags allowed for crew? I ask because the staff search facility (which previously was slightly more appropriate) gives access to the ramp at glasgow, from where the walk to the domestic pier has become a little more convoluted because of the urgent need to convert the area adjacent gate14 into some form of pampering lounge. So it's all become a bit of a complete 4rse ache.
Domestic search is the direct route into the domestic pier, but is generally staffed with the regular (10%) complement of intelectually-challenged.

Back to the top as I have no doubt there are some people who don't read CHIRP.

Two bags for crew is now a DfT rule.

No doubt this change will take some time to reach the "coalface" and I have no doubt that the power drunk members of the security community will still try to impose the old rule just to fuel there egos.

I will try to find a link to the relivent DfT documents, I would recoment that if you are going to use the two bag rule you have a copy of the net DfT ruling................ I suspect you will need to show it!

The best thing would be a day or two of action...ie no flights...Christmas would be a good time and that would give the papers something to talk about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thats a great idea SKI, considering that all it will do is help give more of the security berks extra time off over christmas due to no/low traffic, oh, and piss off all the paying punters who are equally, or more inconvenienced by them :ugh:

It would be good to obtain a printout of said DFT ruling,if only to stick under the nose of some bolshy 'erbert who decides to throw his/her weight around (see how gender correct I am? Sad....).
The BAA security people in particular seem to forget that the airlines(and their crew) are the CUSTOMERS. No airlines= no airports= no jobs,etc....

Best way to treat some of these so called security monkeys is to play them at their own game i.e. soon as one of them is rude to me I ask to see their supervisor and manager and have on occasion called the police to make a complaint of abusive behaviour. Exactly what those clowns would do to us if we were to talk to them in a condescending manner. It works every time as they do not have the savvy to start a war of words especially if they involve more than one syllable.

I off course then file an ASR,(MOR if serious) CHIRP if above a minor fracas and always fill out a complaint form and send to D of T its available for download from their site. Finally I get names and file a report via my base manager.

I’m glad to say I have a reputation for been a complete pain in the arse at my local airfield security cell and I am very proud of that. It also has the added benefit of being treated with respect every time I go through as they know me to well to push their luck.

Above all stay within the rules and there is not a dammed thing they can do when you start creating a scene at the way you have been treated.

Do nothing and hope it goes away
 

I am now considering not reading it, when presented with a genuine problem, they were fobbed off far too easily.

In order to get out of doing anything, Dft/CAA have just moved the goalposts

If people are "Chirping" then that is a confidential report and should be listened to by the Dft & the CAA, what the report is called, should not matter.

It has also illustrated the pitfalls of the MOR system.

Do you really think that the retards who do the security job read websites?

More than one bag
 

For Flight Crew with a ‘Full UK issued ID Card;
Operating, Positioning and Commuting crew will, providing they are travelling within the 24 hour period preceding or following a duty - be treated as ‘staff’ ie Operating Flight Crew, for the purpose of security screening. (ie you will be allowed more than one bag through security – essentially as if you are operating)
Let's be clear. This is MORE THAN ONE BAG. Not two bags. Some people may want to take 3 for example if they have a handbag. If we start telling security staff there is a new rule about 2 bags they will think it is 2 and no more. The new rule is more than 1!

I don't know why they say a Full UK Issued ID Card. Do some people just have half ID cards or something?

The answer, hotmetal, is that there are other flyers who may transit the UK in similar circumstances, but they may only take 1 bag as they don't have a UK issue ID.

G'day ;)

Well i understand what a UK ID is but I don't know what Full ID is :confused:

It's like being 'fully ready' for departure, or the aircraft coming to a 'complete stop'. :ugh:

I am very pleased to see that this thread has been started. I was stunned by some of the stories in latest Chirp, especially the poor pilot with the wrong size of contact lens solution. Common sense would be to have one set of rules for passengers and a different set for crew. Why cant the D of T etc see the current one size fits all approach makes no sense whatsoever.

I was also stunned by the stories reference crews and engineers experiences with security but also somewhat outraged by the response from the Permanent Secretary and indeed tha CAA which smacks of "Dont confuse us with the facts because our minds are already made up". Just because they dont formally have many MORs does not mean the problem does not exist as is shown by 70 reports to CHIRP. The authorities seem to be out of touch with what the end users are suffering from on a daily basis.

I hope it is correct that the new DfT regulation is accepted now by Security, but I had this from BALPA the other day when I queried why nothing seemed to have changed :
Currently the situation is that UK airports are still deciding whether
they will implement the new procedure or not! The BAA (LHR, LGW and STN) has not, and although it hasn't happened on 100% of occasions - MAN had done.
TRANSEC (The DfT department responsible for implementation) are being
very evasive on the issue of mandating the procedure and are quoting
their favourite line that "any airport has the authority to impose
higher standards of security than TRANSEC itself imposes" which is
ridiculous and frankly in this case - totally erroneous as it is not a
security issue but a logistical one.
We are in the process of producing a letter expressing our displeasure
in a way that we hope will force the issue our way to TRANSEC's
Director.
In the meantime, what we need from members are detailed reports
(preferably with an MOR as these are pre-flight stress inducing events
if you are to fly post incident), including dates, times, specific
terminals and channels used etc as a result of related incidents.

The incoming Director General for Civil Aviation (UK),reporting directly to the Transport Secretary,is,for the first time, an Aviation bod (Peter Griffiths, well known to many in the LoCo sector). Hopefully, he can use some clout to sort out this pitiful mess.
Perhaps it needs a few occurrences of crews refusing to operate due to the 'stress' imposed by Airport security to make the Airlines (I say again, the Customers) actively chase this subject as their OTP begins to suffer...

"The answer, hotmetal, is that there are other flyers who may transit the UK in similar circumstances, but they may only take 1 bag as they don't have a UK issue ID."


How charming, a traditional, warm british welcome to those not having a UK ID..

If I COULD choose, I´d definetely wouldn´t cross the channel northbound...

Full ID
 

Well i understand what a UK ID is but I don't know what Full ID is


Well Hotmetal it's just as well that the "Security Monkees" do!

Unfortunately, there are a few of my colleagues that have not been issued a pass yet(licence/id is used to access airside).
Staff on temporary passes I can see being treated as full blown terror suspects.
But it's a start.

As for the traditional warm British welcome. I think you'll find that not all of Britain subscribes to this crap. (have a review of this thread, and you'll see for yourself) It's simply a matter of the wrong people making bad decisions, implemented by power-hungry middle people, using cheap labour, with poor procedures and no latitude for common sense.
The rest of Britain would, I have no doubt, provide you with a very warm welcome. Just don't try to smuggle in a large tin of shaving foam. We (or to be exact, they) would rather sell you 2 small tins instead.
:O

Surely a simple solution would be for the same rules to apply to the neddys in the DfT? (Or should it be dAft) Same so called security on their place of work, same stupidity getting in to work each day, tea flask confiscated etc. should focus their minds a little and then the 'minister' responsible would see what is really happening out there? There again probably he's (or is it a she) never actually had to move in the real world for a few years? :mad:

FFR - I could not agree more, I say the exact same thing every day.

I confused one of the chimps when converting 170g of yoghurt into ml. I simply stated that peach yoghurt has a specific gravity of .6 therefore my yoghurt was in fact only 99ml.

His reply was "er" and I strolled off.

Alas it is only one small victory amongst many horrible starts to the day.

On a final note, a friend of my was not allowed to take his milkshake drink with him, he chugged it like being back at UNI - class.

Fantastic!! I can now take 2 bags on the aircraft.Unfortunately security chopped off both my hands last week as they were the most dangerous items I was taking on board.Still I can always rely on my F/O to carry the bags for me and fly the jet.

What about filing a CAA 939 which we are all entitled to do, meaning endangering an aircraft and/or its occupants.

One thing I've noticed at BHX is that the non-UK crews (KLM, SN Brussels etc) get more hassle from ICTS than the UK crews.

Do overseas crews have access to CHIRPS or do they have their own equivalent?

I suspect not, which means that DFT is only getting part of the story.





S78

I think part of the problem is to do with the way in which the UK security staff themselves are treated. Minimum wage, cheap and nasty excuses for a uniform, dingy working areas cheapo equipment and long boring shifts (particularly at non public access points). Contrast this with the DUS / FRA / STR experience where security staff there are well turned out in smart uniforms, they tend to work in high quality modern air conditioned building spaces, they have the right equipment including wands removing the need for degrading physical searches and on the whole, they are polite and friendly. This generally provokes a similar response from their customers. The passage through security in Germany feels very thorough, but it is an unhurried, calm and professionally run experience. Their secondary searches closer to the gates also heighten the feeling that they take security seriously and unlike many UK airports, it’s not just a corporate / DFT box ticking exercise.





I am always amused at 05.30 in the morning when the early morning crew rush starts at the security post. If a cart with 500 litres of milk arrives for the retail outlets, it somehow has priority over the crews who are trying to get through for the early morning wave. Still I guess it’s the non explosive type of milk and at least the passengers can drink more lattes while they wait for their delayed flights. :)

Even more amusing the other morning was bumping into Nigel. He was hopping up and down in front of the chief searcher demanding to know why HIS crew were all having to wait in the queue with everyone else couldn’t all go through together. “Don’t you know we have planning and checks to do” he said. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: . Sorry BA pilots, we know you arenot all like that, but there is always one and this one was a classic.:ok:

Obviously the rest of us don't do these checks, we just get on have a cuppa, read the sun scratch our arses and press the starter button. :ouch:

Last weekend, I was coming back from having a fag when the alarm bell went off for my zippo lighter that was in my jacket. I was informed that zippo's are not allowed. My mate had a normal lighter and that was OK. Obviously one highly flammable liquid is more dangerous than another!

The security operatives then tried to disarm the lighter, with a suggestion to remove the flint, so as to make it safe! This was overruled by the team leader, who said the only way I could take the hazardous object through in a safe state, would be to remove the internal workings of the device (remove the foam that holds the combustible liquid!) I said that this lighter was not a new item and had passed literally hundreds of random searches, through X-rays etc. The team leader said "Not On His Watch." I took the lighter back and went back to the safety of land side and took the item back to my car, which is a couple of miles round trip.

"Oh he is not a happy chappie" was the comment that followed me out on my exit, to which I replied...well you can imagine, but said very quietly as not to offend the people who are only doing their job!

The world has gone mad and yes, I should give up smoking!

@ Stewardflyer

My medical says I shall wear corrective lenses and carry a spare set of spectacles. I do just this. Because it says so in my medical in my opinion my 120ml bottle of contactlense solution fals under "essential medicines" and I subsequently have the full right to take this through security.

I was questioned a couple of times in LGW but when I stated it was an essential medicine since my medical presribes the wear of contact lenses they backed then. Had a PH test a few times but they dont bother with that anymore either, maybe this would work for you too?

I just put up with them now. You could mention something about "how long can I keep the Porsche in the short stay" or "can't wait to get back as my sixth bedroom needs painting". In otherwords comply with the restrictions and wind them up, there will be a far bigger stink when planes are delayed due to security staff being ignorant, rude and full of themselves. To be truthfull and maybe the security staff don't realise but we actually fly the aircraft and if we wanted to crash, we would. Look at eurocontrol and the DMEAN section and also the CDM project you will find that over the next few years security delays will go and the flight crew will have separate screening to ensure we are airborne on time.

agree with what ILS said.

Its worth remembering that when this security farce passes, and it will, we will still have the job we love, whereas the security chimps will be back asking "do you want fries with that" and being humiliated by their 18 year old spotty manager.
what comes around goes around.

As another thought wait until you see that jumped up £5.40 per hour person trying to get on your plane. For sure they will not get on mine. But having said that you will not see much of them on aeroplanes Brighton is nearer and cheaper.

Two Bag Rule
 

Just been refused through LGW pax Security ,when positioning to work with two cabin bags. Detained for a while, and told BAA makes the rules and do not have to obey Dof T directives!!

The security staff 99% of the time are only doing their job,its the rule makes who are the problem. Now the odd 1% make it difficult...not just in security!!!, how many pilots in your company are difficult(polite)!!!!!

Any way the only way to sort this is a day or two of action...ie no flights....Christmas holidays are a good time! Then you would see some publicity!...and then something might be done about it!!!????????????

Transport issues must have a low priority in Gordon Brown's eyes since he has appointed Ruth Kelly as Secretary of State for Transport. Anyone who has followed her career in the Commons will realise that she is heading for the exit.