DELTA furloughs
 

Just turned on CNN here in Florida to see that DELTA are laying off 1700 pilots. Came into Miami on an Air France flight that was full but generally everything here is doom and gloom. Most of the hotels in MIA are empty. Security in general has improved. God bless America!

Big question now for Delta is:

What will be the furlough implementation rate? How many per month?

Among the US majors, Delta apparently has the most cash - something like $2.5 billion. Let's hope things get better and those Delta pilots who DO get furloughed are not out for long...

You know it's not a good thing when the world's most profitable airline starts to lay off pilots...

Let's hope that Delta's management is not using the crisis as an excuse to circumvent labor agreements and prune costs (probably the case...). Good luck to all involved!

Wakey, wakey guys

I do not wish disaster on any US airline, but the pilots are about to bring it on their own heads. The recent salary deal for pilots at Delta is laughable in the light of likely losses the company will incur. United may go bust soon and others may follow. If you do not start sorting out your salaries - ie lowering them massively - then you will have no airline to fly for. I know this will upset many of you ALPA boys (I am a BALPA member by the way), but if you continue in the fantasy world many of you are living in, then it will be game over. Don't say you weren't warned!

absolute horse **** NSF; schedules will be axed if they are unprofitable-the hard won pay deals would not make any difference to any but the most borderline case, few enough to count on the fingers of one hand Im sure.

Comair pilots tell me that their own corner of the Delta game will be the big winners. Delta is already assigning many of the "borderline" routes to them because they can make money flying them with RJ's where Delta's big jets and big salaries chalk up a huge loss.
Where do you think Delta's big cash stash come from in the first place? It sure wasn't from the past few years of mainline flying; it was that 110 RJ's being flown by the guys on food stamps! :D

Beautifully, and accurately stated, Norman.
Well done, that man.

For those of you STILL in doubt about what the current climate REALLY means, have a look at my post at 'Terms of Endearment' under SR vs. LX

Time to wake up and sniff the Kenyan Blue Mountain, chaps.

GET ON WITH IT! :mad:

to all you that are sitting fat dumb and happy on your flightdecks thinking redundancy won't happen to you. well wake up and smell the coffee.
sick
what the fcuk is the point in forcing pay issues when say, in a few months you might not have a salary at all. your salaries ain't bad at present - nor are your allowances, so why not just ride out the storm for a while (maybe 12mths) and give your company time to stabilize its finances. just remember its better to have a flying job that doesn't pay the most, than it is to not have a flying job and pay far less.

[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: BOEINGBOY1 ]

Delta has a clause in its contract saying anyone in the seniority list as of July 1st 2001 can not be furloughed. Latest I have heard is DALPA is going to court over this issue!

They do have a "no furlough" clause but given
the current economic atmosphere there's no way in hell the union could win this.

If all you see and hear on TV is about the "new war on terror" and the 9/11 atrocities including the fact that 9/11 is to blame for a lot of airline financial misery, then it's an uphill battle at best.

It doesn't hurt to try though.

My sympathies to any and all furloughed pilots, especially those with children or others having serious medical conditions.

Besides increased flying for Comair, will ASA or Skywest etc increase their lists of cities and/or frequencies? If a substantial portion of this takes place, will Delta's Pilot Contract language limit how much flying is "spun off", thereby preventing longer furloughs for Delta pilots?

It would be tragic to have flying permanently switched to codeshare partners, which could prevent some pilots from being recalled to work.

This is a post on another message board from a well known delta pilot who is commenting on the issue (he hasn't been furloughed)

Out of 7 crews, 4 have been removed from the active list, what did we do about it, nothing we accaepted it. The way the world is , is it worth fighting the companies no why not just wait and see if they recover, I am hopeful to get my job back in the future and no we don't get paid loads of money, I am on the same as I was when I flew for another company 3 years ago and they were not the highest payers then. Taking action at this time in the industry is sheer madness. :mad: :mad: :mad:

The DALPA deal added half a billion dollars of cost to the bottom line at Delta, per year.

That's more money that Delta made, cumulatively, in the past decade.

Anyone who reckons that this isn't going to have a negative effect on Delta - or indeed any company - frankly shouldn't be allowed anywhere near an aircraft.

If it is that much guv then Im quite surprised, though there are an awful lot of pilots there, (I dont work there-know someone who does). But generally I am against agreeing to pay cuts during hard times because they rarely improve the survivability of the airline significantly and as Cathay pilots found, it's very difficult to win the original deal back when the good times roll. There are other, better ways to reduce pilot costs which essentially preserve the pay agreement.

Sick - that figure came from Delta themselves.

Personally, I'm a firm believer in profit sharing coupled with reasonable base salaries. That way, when the good times roll round (as they always do) everyone benefits; and when times are hard then the company isn't overburdened with high costs. One advantage of this is that the need for layoffs of staff would be minimised.

It works at Southwest - why not elsewhere? And for those that say that management will fudge the figures, then use the same criteria as that for management bonuses! :D :D :D

I agree; also v. tax efficient. Unfortunately, like most european operators, my co doesn't go in for profit shares.

Hi!

My first message here. Just had to register when I saw this thread! I'm a DL Million Miler - one of your (pilot's) real bosses, the ones that pay your salary. I fully agree on NSF; it's an outrage that the pilots even dream about pay raises and even contracts during the times like this. I run an own small business and I think I know what I'm talking about.

Shame on you! The next time we will meet, I'll take a different look at you, the holy pilot. You will recognize me, I'm the one whom doesn't fall on my knees to praise you.

Let Delta - and my miles - live!!! :mad:

FFPax wrote:
Regardless of what you think, you don't know what you're talking about. Delta pilots ARE NOT talking about pay raises. We HAVE a contract. The raises in our recent contract only brought us up to historical parity with inflation. Our CEO Leo Mullin has been frequently quoted saying just that. The vast majority of other professions's salaries are increasing by far faster than that of pilots. Pilots' salaries are only breaking even in inflation-adjusted dollars. If you think that's unfair...deal with it!

Delta's operating profit in 1995 was $700M. It was $1.3 BILLION in 1996, $1.6 BILLION in 1997, $1.76 BILLION in 1998, $1.9 BILLION in 1999, and $1.9 BILLION in 2000. An increase of labor costs of $100M/year over 5 years is nothing. At the end of the September 2001 quarter, Delta had $2.8 BILLION in cash, and $8.9 BILLION in unencombered aircraft assets. They still expect to have $2.3 BILLION in cash at the end of the year. November bookings are down only 5%, December down 4%. Leo says traffic will be at pre-9/11 levels by Q2 2002. Goldman Sachs is predicting a full-year profit for Delta in 2002.

Yet with the announced furloughs, retirements and military callups, our pilot force will be reduced by approximately 25%. It doesn't add up. It's a BS bluff, and we're not falling for it. We have filed a grievance due to the violation of our contract, and we will win.

All you guys so spun up about about pilot salaries, mind your own damn business, and get a life!

[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: MikeM727 ]

MikeM:

Hmm, good posting mate.
You said it....

Hope it will pan out like the forecast's ya quoted.

(AA is painting a pretty grim picture these days: Yet we have some 2.3 Billion in short term investment and quite a few mill in cash.
As the contract is up for negotiations, the picture will remain bleak for a while..)

:(

MikeM727 - umm, that wasn't $100m per year increase over five years - it was US$500m increase in costs per annum starting from this year.

And I said cumulative profit over the past decade - not just the years it made a profit! ;) ;)

So, MikeM,

Hope we don't see you're arrogant self on the dole line with your bud Brad737...

FFpax

Driving is an option you should consider if you don't like flying!

....well then vmommo, many ARE now driving (instead of flying), and that is certainly part of the problem. Who wants to spend 60 minutes plus in the security line only to be hassled by a minimum wage drop-out?

May the "sick" companies die! If people don’t fly by stock in GM and Ford.

I am 100% for pure capitalism and that is the beautiful part about America. If companies can't make it they sink. Pilots should make whatever they are able to negotiate, which happens to be the case for most other employee groups, including CEO’s and baseball players. Unions just happen to be an unnecessary evil and a part of capitalism.

Long live profits, high pilot salaries, lean mean companies, excellent CEO’s, employee empowerment and pilsner beer!

Are the pilots really that arrogant? No respect for their airline's real long time customers!? Do the company executives read this site...

I have done a lot of driving lately. And then there are trains. The reason is not the airline (in)safety, but rather the economy itself. Less money, less travel (by air). :confused:

What you'll find, sir, is that major airline pilots learned a long time ago that they don't get what they deserve - they get what they negotiate. I'll wager you use that philosophy youself in running a business.

Now when times get tough things can be renegotiated. Or in Delta's case, they invoke "force majeure" to claim inability to comply with the contract. The pilots are fighting this, of course - you telling me you wouldn't? Pay cuts will come either way, it just takes some bluster on both sides. This is business - the "Delta Family" perished at the hands of Allen in the early nineties.

Amd a word about customer service: don't let the neat commercials playing during the world series, or the sugary PA announcements of the captains fool you - pilots are most certainly NOT in the service business. They are in the SAFETY business. They are proud, arrogant, and full of themselves - and believe it or not, some dark nights you need all that ego, and more. Imagine holding up 400 people on an intercontinental flight because you don't like the forecast, or something in the paperwork doesn't look right. You don't expect a "customer-oriented" attitude of your surgeon, your policeman, or your lawyer - best not to look for it from your cockpit, either.

Did anybody realise that over 11000 others had at DAL will have to leave. Haven`t seen any mentioning of sympathy for them.

I am sorry to harp on but there will have to be an air of realism here - particularly from pilots and cabin crew. My heart goes out to all those pilots and others who have lost their jobs in the industry, and indeed to the many others who are about to. I am a simple soul, however, and see businesses like my own finances. The bottom line is this - MONEY IN MUST EXCEED MONEY OUT! If your wages prevent your business from achieving this then you must lower them. It really is that simple. This is not some political statement - just plain common sense.

I am an ordinary pilot and am not in management and have no axe to grind. I look in utter astonishment at what some of my colleagues, spurred on by head-in-the-sand union greed, are demanding from their employers at a time like this. It is like people rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. Just wake up people - you are about to price yourselves out of your liveliehoods! How much clearer can I say it? It really is that simple.

[ 04 November 2001: Message edited by: Norman Stanley Fletcher ]

I think we're in bigger trouble than most realize...fuel is cheap, cheap, cheap now–what's going to happen if fuel prices spike because of all this international turmoil? When the war drums are being beaten, a rise in commodity prices often follows.

It looks to me like 411A was one of the only folks who had a good feeling for the fundamental economic situation faced by the industry; even without the terrorism stuff the economy was slowing and the airlines were facing a "cyclical" downturn that they weren't nimble enough to successfully confront. I'm not talking about everyone's perpetual contention over pilot salaries and union stuff, I'm just talking about the bigger, basic economic picture.

Meanwhile, we'll have to see pissheads like FFPax aiming his frustrations at us by gloating at our collective woes. FFPax is obviously one of those losers who doesn't have the "right stuff" to become a pilot, and has been seething in envy and stewing in the ennui of his worthless little life for decades. His badge of courage, "small business owner," means, in his context, "miserable, grubby little merchant." Don't let this delicate little cupcake of a man get under your skin...while he frustrates himself leering at the Flight Attendants, we're the ones who enjoy their company on the RON's.

Here's the real story. I talked to a Delta 767 Capt two days ago--Fri-Night---who said he was a "Management Pilot" who had just
had a meeting with the Delta VP of Flt Ops.
He said The big wigs over at the Delta
headquarters really don't know "exactly"
what will happen. He said things are changing daily. He went on to say the speech by Leo Mullin was largely for the "investors". According to this Capt
three major points will happen in the near future-- 1: a displacement bid on Nov 10-12
2: On Feb 1st management will decide if they need to furlough additional pilots---if they need to-- 100-150 could be furloughed----and he did not say whether that was 150 a month or just 150 on Feb 1st 3: The next important date will be June 1st----I guess they make their schedules 3 or so months in advance. He said all 1700 COULD be furloughed , but it would be unlikely that
it would go that deep. Delta has 400 or so retirements in 2002. If all 1700 were furloughed--at a rate of 100 a month-- it would take until the end of next year. Since it was said that it is uneconomical to furlough a pilot for less than 1 year----and assuming Delta recalled pilots at a rate of 100 a month----Delta would have it's pilots back by 2005. Give me a break!!! Airlines can't think forward more than 2 weeks in advance---let alone from now to 2005!

Guvnor----you sound like someone who is a whee bit jealous! Keep playing the Lotto and you too might get a boost in salary. The Delta pilots have something you maybe have never heard of: a "Contract"---which was agreed upon by Management---who declared after signing it--"We now have the highest
paid pilots in the industry--" They were happy when the pilots agreed to that contract. Believe it!

FFPAX----Let me guess, you aren't a pilot.
Hmmm----do you have any say in your pay?
Do you get bonuses? Or do you accept anything your employer offers you? IF you had a chance to up your pay and maybe increase your lifestyle and "hit the jackpot"
would you try? Ofcourse you would! Especially if you knew your company could afford it. Times are bad now, and Delta MNGMT and pilots haven't discussed any change in pay---unlikely lower $ per hour---just lowering of cap hours would do it.
FFPAX-----get off your high horse.

MikeM727---you are right on. Delta ALPA
hopefully would win the arbitration--they say
they have the numbers and the No Furlough Clause which states "Even under a bad economy--no Furloughs"--But even if they don't win---atleast there will be a better understanding of "Force Mejeur"---how long it would last etc....

Groupwatcher----Most of those 11,000 who have a 1 year leave can be called back within 2 weeks notice. Hmmmmmmm

We'll see what happens. There was a Wall Street Journal article 2 weeks ago that said Delta might be in the position to cherry pick another airline. (with stocks so low now) Let's hope everything recovers soon.

God Bless! Donkey Duke :cool:

Donkey Duke and "Gang": Interesting dialogue. Let's hear those laymen complaints about contracted (which means signed by both parties) industry-level, or 20% less, pilot pay and benefits immediately after landing at 130+ miles per hour on a slippery runway in gusty crosswinds-and stopping within the runway edges, following a rough instrument approach in snowy conditions or between thunderstorms...with 10,000 lbs of Jet A/JP-5 kerosene sloshing in wings with the tips only four feet above the blurring concrete, at the end of a 12-hour (no rest) duty day. Quite simple. Never mind having a red "master warning" light illuminate on the same final approach or during the next gusty, turbulent takeoff at over 100 knots.

Right, Mr/Mrs Mahogany Desk Jockey (highly qualified in aviation as an F-14 ace at the home computer-four 'Backfire bombers' destroyed with an 'ok 3-wire' carrier landing after the first approach!): no sweat.

If a surgeon makes a tragic mistake, it only injures/kills one person at a time. Maybe our US medical groups should suddenly recruit only surgeons from overseas who will work for one-third the going rates, or less. Let's just put the beancounters completely in charge of your healthcare and pharmaceutical decisions , much more than they are now.

Ignition...

Well put. Too bad this forum is now a venue of attempted antagonism by some frustrated, Prozac-sucking office dweebs who are leading lives of not-so-quiet desperation. These wretched clerks just want to get a reaction out of professional pilots, since they feel flattered that we'd give them any attention at all. Then they'll slink back to their cubicles, look at the photos on their desks of their fat and ugly wives, and resume their boring, soulless, and stale toil. Sounds like hell to me, dude. Not even the hounds of hell could drag us to that fate.

Norman Stanley Fletcher wrote:
Can you please quote ONE SINGLE member of Delta managment who has stated the need to lower pilot salaries? Delta has not asked the pilots to lower our pay. Managment and the pilot group came to a mutual agreement (contract) on our compensation that was touted as a win-win scenario.

First, there is no way in hell that you're an airline pilot. Second, since when is barely keeping up with inflation defined as "greed"?

Where are you getting this BS? We are not seeking raises! We have a contract!

Let me explain something to you anti-union morons. The pilot group has much more of a vested interest in the long-term success of the company than any member of management. We have 30-year careers to think about. Management types come and go with their golden parachutes, often leaving companies in ruin. The Delta pilot group will ensure our share of the pie, but will never do something to kill our company. We are not suicidal.

MikeM727 is correct. The Delta pilots would never try to ruin their own company. Management signed the contract and proclaimed
victory themselves. As the Chairman Leo
Mullin said, "A contract is a contract." Too
bad the No Furlough clause in that contract
is supposedly Null in void. Whatever! The load factors are gradually increasing. And yes, the yields are lower, but the higher the loads over a sustained period of time means eventually fare increase. Delta has
the time and the money----$2.8 Billion or so,
and it will survive. God Bless! Donkey Duke

I'm SLF with a few thousand miles shy of DAL's Million Miles baggage tag.

First- what people earn is their own damn business- between themselves and their employer. Period. If one of my competitors came to my boss and said , "OldAg makes $20,000 too much.." I'd drag out back and pound him.

If they "put themselves out of business" because of "greed" - then they have no one to complain to. Period.

Pilots make good money- they work hard- they have a lot of responsiblity. They can't move for more money in a free market fashion. What they negotiate (for better or worse-right or wrong) belongs to them.

Maybe a strategy might be I'll make as much as I can today because I might not be here tomorrow.

In the great sport of capitalism- companies either make it or don't- and how they do it is their business.

Thanks Dad....

All of you pilot want to be doomsayers that think that pilot salaries are going to force their employers to file for chapter 11 don't know anything about the history of this business. I think Mikem727 said it best and I will add a few points it.
1. When APA signed the infamous B scale contract with AA in 1983 the union bought into the doom and gloom of Bob Crandell and signed one of the most damaging contracts in history. AA pilots were flying at 40% below their counterparts at Delta and United. Did AA make more money because their pilot costs were that much lower? Did they expand that much more? Certainly not! All it did was force the pilots of UAL to strike in order not to prostitute themselfs in the same way. They did sign a limited B scale but not nerely as deep as AA and their airline did fine.
2.In the early nineties NWA management took the company private and saddled the company up with so much debt it nearly failed. The pilots agreed to concessions. They were forced to strike in 98 to get back to industry standards even though the airline had made promises to them regarding snapbacks. NWA is doing fine.
3. SWA is often quoted as being a low cost competitor even though their pilot salaries are quite respectable. They are behind after the DAl contract but you can bet that their salaries will rise substantially in their next contract and it will have nothing to do with SWA's future viability.

Here we are again. Times are bad. People are bringing up the same old argument regarding labor costs. If any of us agree to concessions it will not make the slightest bit of difference as to the future viabilty of our airlines, but it will take years to erase. It took APA 20 YEARS to get rid of B scale. I would caution ALPA at both UAL and DAL to tread very carefully before they agree to any concessions. I know that Delta and AA havn't aked for any yet but I think UAL management has.

Keep the faith.

Huck,

You're welcome.

BTW I'm probably old enough to be your son. :)

Thank you MikeM727 and others for your comments. First of all, I will have to disappoint you - I am an airline pilot (A320/1) and have no part whatsoever in Airline management.

We are agreed then as we all claim we want to look after our future careers. I come back, however, to my original statement that money-in must exceed money-out in order to ensure long-term success. That is not the case in most US majors, particularly Delta. Someone has pointed out that the management was saying what a good deal had been achieved in the last pay round. They could hardly say anything else, but external analysts have all said it was over-generous. Frankly, though, that is irrelevant if the money is there to pay for it. Good luck to you if you have found a golden goose laying golden eggs. The problem is that the goose is having a heart attack!

The pie does not exist - you are losing money hand over fist, and you have to recognise it. Sadly, I believe you are suicidal because you have forced a deal that is unsupportable. You are paid too much because your business cannot pay your wages. That is a straight statement of fact. It may be that there are many others including your management who also must cut their salaries, but if you do not act soon you will be finished.

I started life at the bottom as a bus driver (no, not an Airbus - a double decker bus) and was forced to join what was then the biggest union in the UK (TGWU) and I saw the unions at first hand. To you guys in the States, these were the days when unions ruled the country and were almost impossible to challenge. I was very pro-union then (and to an extent still am, subject to the common sense requirement that I have argued here). I saw union leaders go and demand all sorts of things, and have all kinds of restrictive work practices. For example a bus driver could not change a bulb in the bus, and the bus would be taken out of service for a day with all the lost revenue that would entail, until an electrician could be found. - only certain people could do certain things. Then surprise, surprise -one day the bus depot closed and all the drivers were unemployed because the revenue from the fare-paying public would not support the wages paid to the staff. It was a genunie surprise to everyone there, and none more so than the union leaders. They talked of management conspiricies etc, etc but the bottom line was the money was not there to pay the wages.

So, guys, where does that lead to? It is very simple - your companies are essentially insolvent. Your passengers are not providing enough revenue to pay your wages. Added to that you have restrictive practices (scope clauses etc. which, although well-meaning, limit the freedom of the company to operate the best business it can. There can only be one end to this - bankruptcy.

The US is more advanced than the UK in many areas, but this is one where we have been there before you. (I am a big fan of the USA by the way). We had our years of union madness and we are way past it now. Unions play a vital part in protecting the workforce from the worst excesses of management, but they must have a degree of wisdom. If anything we have gone too far back to the days of management power at employee expense, but the situation in US airlines is very unhealthy. The unions have not acted wisely on your behalf and need to get real.

I realise this is deeply offensive to many of you, and particularly to my colleagues in the States, and no doubt a tirade of abuse will appear. But the proof of the pudding is in the eating. If you do not act now to assist in making your companies solvent then you will have no jobs. It is just that simple.

Norman Stanley Fletcher!

BRAVO!!!!

Exactly how I see the things at Delta. The DL management didn't have any choice than to approve the contract. I strike would have been a disaster. Projections showed a better future and constant growth in pax numbers. But then everything changed.

I like the airline of my choice and would hate to see it die.