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PPRuNe Admin
19 Dec 2006

Pilot jailed (alcoholism & pilots)
 

I'm suprised that no one has commented, but the Daily Telegraph reported yesterday that an Australian pilot employed by Emirates who turned up for duty "more than 3 times over the drink drive limit" has been jailed for 6 months.
Thankfully, he was intercepted before he even boarded the aircraft and I have no doubt that he would have been picked up by the rest of the crew had he done so.

Ive been in aviation for a long long time, and I am acutely aware of the dtresses and strains that lead "professionals" to drink and other substances, but I sincerely hope that he serves the full sentance, gets the help he needs to accept the gravity of his problem, and never, ever flys again,

The guy clearly has an alcohol addiction. Maybe you could take some time to understand the physiology of addiction a bit more before you condemn him for life. If he arrived at work in that state, then he does deserve to have his flying priveleges removed at least for some time. Unfortunately, 6 months in jail may heal the pain of society, but it will not help this guy, or anyone else to get past the addiction.

Contrary to popular belief, addiction is not a character flaw, it's a disease of the brain, and it is treatable. Forward looking companies have pilot assistance problems that are designed to provide the type of guidance and support that can help a pilot get well and in many cases, return to active duty successfully. Sadly, I suspect no such offer will be made and instead of getting better, he may be destined to live out his life in shame and disgrace. What a waste.

Yes he was a fool, yes he was irresponsible, yes his licence priviliges should be suspended and yes he should be punished.

But NO he should not automatically be banned for life - hopefully he will get the correct medical/physcological treatment and, if he reacts to this correctly, his priviliges should be reinstated as for any other illness that is overcome.

Alcoholism (and other addictions) are a little understood problem by the masses who have not experienced them personally or worked closely with them.

niknik, that is one of the most pompous pronouncements I've heard here. So you want him to serve his full sentence, you want him cured of his addiction, then you want him further punished by being denied any hope of his livelihood for the rest of his life! And all the other gits who murder and get out after 5 years serving about 1/3 their sentence 'have discharged their debt to society!'.

Spare us your pronouncements!

Unfortunately, this is a recurring theme in aviation. I would estimate that perhaps half of these incidents never make the headlines. Over the years I've seen deals quietly cut that allow the accused to retire or go on long term leave for treatment. Sometimes the test results are torn up or invalidated to avoid paperwork outside the company.

Even showing up to check your mail after drinking will get you in big trouble these days as FedEx Chief Pilot Jack Lewis wrote in a recent memo:

Regretably, if you live in a nanny state for long enough, some will think like a nanny. Yes the guys' done something wrong but he, and his family if he has one, shouldn't be ruined for life.

The man in question has been at Emirates since about day one! a very nice chap and what happened was most out of character.

The local rag out here states a four month jail term, after that who knows what for him? he's lost everything he had here in Dubai, at 51 years of age he still has a lot of flying ahead of him though.

I for one hope he get the help he needs to sort his life out and I wish him and his family all the best, it's going to be a rough ride!!!!

In the US, alcohol abuse is grounds for being denied a medical necessary to fly professionally. The thought that it is proper to clean him up, rehab him and return him to a cockpit rather than a dispatch or some other non flying job seems to suggest that there is no availability of other pilots to perform the job without risking the lives of hundreds of people.

Very laudable pronouncements from you all.....

The guy has a problem, but once you are an alcoholic you are an alcoholic for life, having experienced the problem via a member of my family who was in an equally responsible profession, I know how easy it is to slip back into old habits and pretend everyhing is OK.

The facts are, whether you agree or not, that once you have the problem you need all the help you can get and, because of the possible consequences, you should never be allowed the professional responsibility this gentlemen had.

If that isn't enough for you, jsut imagine if he had got onto the Flight Deck and made an error which resulted in the deaths of one or all on board, would you be so quick to defend him?

As a final aside, my Uncle, who was a Genius in almost every respect, died because he was an alcoholic, like most astonishingly clever people, he wouldn't accept his problem was alcohol.

finfly1:

Maybe you didn't intend it, but that sounds like someone looking for ways to weed out the top end of the seniority list. You suggest that we just toss him out with no opportunity to get well and return to duty. As I said earlier, addiction is a disease, and in a just society, you cannot discriminate against people with diseases. If they receive the necessary treatment to allow them to return to the workforce, they deserve to be reinstated.

Nik Nak.

Alchoholism is curable. I know several people who have dried out and gone on to live t-totalled lives very happily.

You may have been in aviation a long time... Sadly not long enough to have your arrogance and pomposity beaten out of you.

So niknak, how well do you know J.D. the man in question? you seem to have him branded as an alcoholic.

Not the case!

Iv'e known him for over three years and flown with him, he is most definately not an alcoholic.

You claim to have been in aviation for a long time but you talk like a novice.

Try getting you facts in order before spouting off. :mad:

I was an alocoholic and finally reached the point that I sought medical help so as to stay in my chosen career, aviation as a pilot.

I admitted myself to Schick Shadel treatment hospital in Seattle Wa in January of 1985.

My Transport Canada doctor was aware of my treatment and has my treatment file from Schick Shadel which I gave him as does Transport Canada .

I have just retired from a lifetime of accident free flying in April of this year and have not had a drop of alcoholic beverage since my leaving Schick Shadel in 1985.

Alcoholism can be cured.

Chuck Ellsworth

Well done Chuck!!

Happy retirement. :)

I might slag the guy off if I were perfect myself................:hmm:

saskatoon.....

Am I to understand that I should not have been allowed to fly for pay for the last 21 years because I deserved punishment for have been an alcoholic?

Chuck - my absolute respect and good wishes for a long and happy retirement.

SAS/Niknak/Finfly - you know not of what you speak !

I suggest you re-read Sask's post - all of it...

I have read all of both (perhaps you missed one?) of SAS's posts - indeed now for a second time at your behest SLF.

I understand (and have personal reason to do so) his anger and the harm that was done to himself/family/friends by a drunk driver.

I will still not support the premise that the individual concerned should "never, ever flys [sic] again".

If under reasonable professional measurement he is treated and cured (and one contributor who, apparently knows the individual concerned, suggests it was a 'one off aberration' along the lines of SAS's self admitted "reporting whilst not feeling 100%" rather than a deeply infiltrated problem) for a medically recognised condition it is my opinion that he should then -and only then - be able to continue to enjoy the priviliges of his licence in the same way that Chuck, a couple of colleagues who I have known and a larger number of their fellow professionals have done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimS
Chuck - my absolute respect and good wishes for a long and happy retirement.


God forbid if he had got as far as the flightdeck and airborne and the worst happened. 250+ people would not be having a long and happy retirement thats for sure!
Not to mention the hundreds of families that would have been destroyed as a result.
I do not know the guy in question and do not argue he may be a lovely chap, but there is a huge responsibility with other peoples lives in question here. He could have called in sick and not turned up for his duty.
All you have to do is think if it was your Son, Daughter, Wife, Husband, Dad, Mother, Brother, Sister or Friend on board a flight that ended in tragedy due to a Pilot being intoxicated.
I expect now he is sober and the reality hits home, he would probably agree.
Very sad.

Dan,

I am confused ! Is the 'he' you are referring to the unknown but reported 'JD' at Emirates or Chuck (who it is quite possible has never flown 'under the influence' but was man enough to not only recognise his problem, get treatment and be cured, but then share his experience with us) who you 'quote' from my message of genuine congratulations ?

Not intending to delay the hanging.... of course.... but one feels compelled to point out that people who normally do not drink much, if at all, are often the ones most likely to be caught in a situation of inappropriate public intoxication.

Serious drinkers, who imbibe regularly for taste or nourishment, accumulate enzymes and other metabolic adaptations in their bodies which allow them to more quickly process and discharge alcohol. They also 'learn the ropes' of managing and avoiding intoxication by balancing food and drink, consuming vitamins, drinking water, etc.

By contrast, your maiden aunt Minnie, slim as a rail and dry as a wadi, will tend to very quickly go out of control. She well may turn into a naive but willing sponge if someone triggers the process by pouring the first few Harvey Wallbangers in her cup instead of tea. Add an innocuous antihistamine or two, and she will be even more susceptible.

So..... circumstances alter cases. Surely the pilot involved should be given some benefit of doubt until full facts are known.

TimS,
The unknown but reported 'JD' at Emirates, was who I was referring to.

Mouth opening...

I'm not a pilot - as my handle suggests - but I do have a lot of aviation related responsibilities and I think that you guys supporting this 'errant' pilot is really Laudable - But...

This is just the latest of a continuing series of "misdemeanors" that are given a high profile, but not a high enough profile.

I believe the lack of response, to this news breaking, displays some level of acceptance of this type of incident by users of this site, as "just another one".

I believe one of your alcoholic associates is going to cause a Smoking Hole at some time, and the post-mortem evidence will be too disparate to examine for the true cause, if it hasn't already happened.

I believe that this case could be given a profile high enough to display to all pilots the effects of not conducting proper personal controls at all times, as befits personel given such huge responsibilities.

From what I read - I believe he, and his family, have lost quite a lot already, Job, Home in Dubai, etc. Making him serve all his small sentence won't hurt him much more. But, it will make a large impact on the pilot community if all drunk pilots are seen to be punished as befits the offence.

Mouth closed, Eyes (and ears) opening.....

Rigga, I think that you and a couple of other posters are misinterpreting the postings of the majority.....

No-one on here (with the possible of exception of the one poster who knows him personally) is supporting JD, certainly including myself.
He made a huge error of judgement, he probably has a problem, he is to be punished (jail etc) and will presumably lose his job etc - fine, I have absolutely no problem with that.

All that I, and a number of other contributors if I may presume to speak on their behalf, argue is that the original statement "and never, ever flys [sic]again" is not reasonable - alcoholism is a disease and can be cured (not always by any means, as I well know), and if it is cured then an additional punishment of a life ban is neither fair nor sensible.

This is my last post on the subject, as I am becoming both repetitive and slightly wound up on the subject!

His sentence is quite severe- far more severe than many perpetrators of violent crime. He has presumably been punished 'as befits the offence'. The problem here is people wishing on him punishment beyond his imprisonment, and for the rest of his life! If violent criminals and murderers come out of prison 'having served their time and discharged their debt to society' (sometimes after extremely short sentences even for murder), one wonders how fair it is that it is wished upon this person punishment for life for a crime where there are no wounded victims and nobody has been hurt or disadvantaged. It was an attempted crime as I am quite sure the other pilot would not have allowed proceedings to continue.

Don't some of you have the righteousness of God all of a sudden!

I really really hope, that one day, one or two of these so called 'perfect' gents gets a lesson of there own.

It is all to easy, to sit back, and say ' well I hope he stays in prison for a long time cause he/she is such a bad guy/girl cause he/she has made a mistake'

So far in my career, I have met pretty much all types of pilot, from Airline drivers, figher pilots to gliding intructors/Bush Pilots, and in every field in one way or another, that are enought different individuals to see what actually goes on in the real world.

Niknak etc, I hope I never ever have to meet you or have to deal with you, and some of you really sound like the Devil Incarnate.

There are a small number of gents/ladies on this site that seem to love to watch others in the same profession having a pretty rough time.

By the way, Niknak, by the looks of it you are in Air Traffic!!.......... is there nothing that you have better to do in your spare time then slating pilots over the internet as a hobby, try 'chess, knitting, cooking, bird watching etc' but please just dont grace us with your high and mighty comments.

Yours with the best regards

JL

nik nak and sask

Congratulations. Your posts fit in well with the pomposity of this site and many who frequent it.

Well, there are merits to both sides of this argument, but I still wish this JD all the best for his recovery and return to flying. We can all make mistakes, some with more serious consequences than others, but even if this particular individual hadnt been identified as under the influence at that time, it is highly unlikely to have resulted in any accident or incident. This secenario has played out thousands of times in aviation (and elsewhere) without serious consequence. I am not condoning it, just higlighting the fact that ONE 'drunk' pilot wont kill anyone.

What will kill lots of people soon, is fatigue. Because it cant be tested, or detetced, and two fatigued pilots will fly together, without each realising the other's similar state. Who would hazard a guess at how many instances occur daily, of an aircraft flying with both pilots dozing off simultaneously?

Its imminent.

On the a related thread, any news of the ez scarebus female capt from some time ago? Can't seem to find news anywhere.

privilege
 

Just a question here and I might add that I am not a pilot but have a licence as well - isn't it exactly this "pivilege" of the licence that should not be taken for granted but requires the proper proffessional behavior and attitude to deserve it?
I have seen enough vicitms of drunken drivers (including children) that I can absolutely understand calls to remove those who inflicted this from their responsibility simply as they did not hold up to it (including revoking a license etc.). Please note - I am talking in general and are not making any judgment on the person in question.

And exactly why have we resorted to comparing drunken drivers with pilots who have been over the limits on a breath test???

How many people have been killed by drunken drivers?

And how many by pilots who had one too many the night before?

Come on you statisticians......?

To all you defenders of the involved Capt: It shows you have a social attitude and show you hope to be treated as social once you get caught in a situation like this. Life doesn't work this way. The guy f*cked up, okay? Sad for him but thats life. You know the rules of the game and should play by them. If you your wife walks in on you cheating, do you expect a second chance? Why does everyone always need a second chance. If you activate your brain, you might be able to picture the dire consequences of your own stupidities. Most pilots are not mentally challenged so they certainly should be able to do this. If you still manage to get caught, then it means you are really, really stupid. If you were already able to cross the line knowing what the results might be, what guarantees does society have you won't do it again? I feel for the guy, but he really should have called in sick.

Tell that the people with cancer who always did everything they could to live a healthy life and still get sick and die. These people might claim the guy could have avoided his own disease by not lifting the glass to his mouth.

RayCosmic - aviation aside, your statement regarding cancer sufferers etc etc shows your total lack of understanding of the mechanics of any form of addiction

What would have happened in Singapore?

How about a situation where the pilot had used some sort of mouthwash?
My general impressions of there that it is operated by a harsh, steel-fisted dictatorship where no rules are broken, due to very stern penalties for everything.

And in the other lands of the Middle East?
Would the prison sentence be longer in a country where alcohol is officially forbidden, but privately tolerated? :cool:

Hypocrite??

I'm not judging JD but since you've had no qualms about doing so, yourself: It sounds like you're no better than he or the drunken driver you also refer to.

Please name the airline you currently work for so the masses can avoid placing their precious lives in your neglectful hands.

Maybe "alcoholics" cannot be reformed.

Who'd want them in really important roles. :ooh:

You'd never give the keys to the Oval Office to a "reformed drunk", now would you! :=

That would be ridiculous, putting a "reformed drunk" in charge of the goddam planet! :}



BTW: This talk of so & so times the legal limit ... was this from a reporter? What's the legal limit in the country in question!?

This chap doesn't fit the alcoholic profile for mine. I reckon he's made a bad error of judgment for whatever reason and it has cost him his job. arcniz is spot on with his assessment of the situation. He should have the opportunity to work in the industry again and I'll bet he will learn from this regrettable experience. I just hope he hasn't access to a computer and is reading all this vitriol from his prison cell.

For goodness sake, leave the poor guy alone !:mad: