OK, I'll say it again, I was OTT and "holier than though" in some of my original comments but, for good or bad, it has bought out some fairly graphic descriptions of what alcohol can (or to those in denial - cannot) do to any of us.
Keep the thread going - if it only helps one of us, I'd be happy to take all the abuse you can sling at me...

Nuff said NickNak. Honesty is something we all lack, when we look inwardly, myself included. I think we have all learned something from this thread and I thank you for starting it in the first place. I also understand why you tried to pull it but I, like you, am glad it was reinstated.
I like to think that I am a social drinker. I am sure most of us on this site think the same thing. However, a couple of beers before dinner followed by a bottle of wine in the evening are well on the way to being alcoholic. Particularly if you are as old as I am!
I, for one, have reappraised my drinking habits recently. I now insist my wife drinks at least one glass of wine!
Seriously though, how many of us walk that fine line between addiction and social drinking, if there is such a thing? If you, like me, drink every day after work, then you are probably, like me, an alcoholic. You are dependant, like me. Try stopping for a day, two days, three days and tell us all what affect the effort had on you. Go on, try it. I did and the result was a real eye opener. I craved a drink at 9.30 pm on day 1. Pathetic. I gave up the struggle and opened the wine on day 2 at about 10.pm. Even more pathetic.
There, but for the grace of your god, etc.........Cheers.:confused:

Many years ago in college I quit for a week. I did crave a beer/alcohol, but resisted for the week. What I found very interesting was that one of my roommates said, "You know you can do it, just have a beer with us!" This made it particularly difficult of course to continue the last two days of my abstinence. But I told him and myself, that it was my judgment that was in question. Could I actually tell myself that I 'could make it' if I actually didn't.
Great Thread & Happy New Year to all (especially to those on an early New Years Day!!, like me)
Tank

PM
 

Sure, go ahead.

I've stayed out of the fray since signing off but have responded to several via PM's.

Blue skies,
Lyle Prouse

How do I know if I'm alcoholic...??
 

This is offered for what it's worth although it's longer than I intended. I offer it based on decades of studies and research, all of which is available for your objective assessment. You may accept this, reject it, pooh-pooh it, or whatever. It's what I've learned in 16 plus years of being sober and working in the field of alcoholism/addiction. It's also very personal.

One definition of alcoholism is "When one continues to drink in the face of adverse or even lethal consequences." The simplest one (I think) is: "If one experiences problems due to alcohol and continues to drink." Problems can be relationships (husband/wife, family, friends, coworkers, etc), legal problems (DUIs, jail, lawsuits, etc), employment (excessive absenteeism, poor or declining performance...), financial, health issues due to booze, and many others.

If one cannot stop drinking - and stay stopped - it's a good indication of a problem. I quit many times, sometimes for a month, two (usually before an FAA physical), or whatever, but I never intended to stop permanently. I was convinced that my ability to stop for a month or more was proof positive I could NOT be an alcoholic. And I was dead wrong.

Statistics can tell you anything if they're tortured enough, but the following is considered both true and accurate. In the U.S., 7 out of every 10 people drink. Of the 7 who drink, only 2 are genuinely "social drinkers," although we all claim to be. A social drinker is a person who could care less if they finish their drink and only have a drink to "be social." I always thought an unfinished drink was an example of alcohol abuse.

The remaining 5 will abuse alcohol to some degree, some more than others (driving home drunk from a bar), over-indulging from time to time, etc. Of those 5, 1 will become alcoholic, so there's a 10% overall alcoholism factor in the general population. I am aware that some ethnic groups are different.

Most abusers eventually slow down as they age and time takes its toll; that has certainly been true among my friends over the years. But while they were slowing down, my tolerance was still rapidly increasing. In the midst of abusers it's difficult to pick the alcoholic out of the crowd, especially since alcoholism is a long process and not a sudden event. All alcoholics first use alcohol, then abuse it, and eventually slide into alcoholism, and there is an early, middle, and late stage to the disease marked by certain symptoms along the way. Most of us visualize alcoholics in the late stage (drunks in doorways, alleys, drinking out of brown paper bags, etc) and we're blind to those in the early and middle stages.

Ironically, I learned that 95% of all alcoholics are upper income over achievers, and that only 5% fit the picture I had. None of my initial beliefs or ideas was accurate.

Two of the most significant symptoms for me were preoccupation and loss of control, or predictability. And they were both extremely subtle. I knew where most of the liquor stores or bars were on most of my layovers. I knew which liquor stores were open on Sunday, which closed early at night, and when I needed to carry my own booze. I attached no significance to this, however, as I just considered it "good planning." Checking my booze supply at home to make sure I had plenty, selecting restaurants that had liquor licenses so I could have drinks with/after my meal were only two examples of my preoccupation with alcohol.

I was never a morning drinker nor did I check my watch for the 5 o'clock "cocktail hour." My drinking patterns varied and I did not always drink every night or every weekend. I did not beat or abuse my wife and kids. I didn't do a LOT of things I was convinced all alcoholics did...but I also operated from a base of zero actual knowledge about it. Like many pilots, I assumed my ideas and opinions constituted knowledge and facts.

One strong symptom is loss of control, or more accurately, loss of predictability. Many years ago, it was no problem for me to "stop for a couple," have them, and go on my way. Later, I would stop "for just two," and I might have them and head home - or I might stay and close the bar, stay longer than I intended at a friends and drink, and call home to say I'd miss dinner. More and more and ever so slowly, my intentions failed to match my actions...after I'd had that first drink. Of course, there were times I fully intended to make an evening of it, but that's not what this is about.

I learned later that it's not the 10th drink that causes me to get drunk - it's the first one that triggers the so-called "phenomenon of craving," or loss of predictability. After that first drink I can no longer accurately or consistently predict what I'm going to do.

I am an alcoholic. I metabolize alcohol different than you but will not go into that here. I also have the usual (but not always) close, genetic predisposition since both my parents died of this disease. The genetics can skip generations but the connection is very parallel to that of diabetics and just as deadly. If one parent is alcoholic, the child is 4 times more likely to develop the disease. With both parents alcoholic, the risks increase exponentially, not linearly.

There is no shame in being a recovering alcoholic; there is only shame in continuing to drink. I'm not a victim of anything because I've taken action to recover and I refuse to be a victim. No one I ever knew intentionally set out to become an alkie...anymore than any smoker I ever knew did so with the intention of dying from lung or other cancer. (I've never smoked)

One gent sent me a message saying, "Alcoholism is a self-inflicted disease." I responded by saying I'd heard that before and believed that idea was supported by the need to feel superior, much as I could point to someone obese and feel the same way - if I chose. Most things that come our way due to poor choices and bad behavior are "self-inflicted"; and that includes many things we visit upon ourselves due to poor lifestyle choices, which often includes the top killer diseases of heart disease, cancer, and stroke. But none of us use the "self inflicted" comment for those situations.

Some will undoubtedly choose to take issue with this, I'm sure. If you do, how about using facts versus injecting opinon and visceral reaction. Having been a pilot since 1961 I'm familiar with the propensity of pilots to be authorities on things we know nothing about -and I include mself in that group...although I've done much to try to change that.

Blue skies,
Lyle Prouse

An exception thread, thanks to Lyle, Chuck et al for their excellent posts made more poignant for me by the recent death of my sister-in-law from alcohol abuse at the age of only 38. RIP

Excellent post, LProuse! Very insightful!

LProuse:

Very interesting and inspirational posts. Your candor & eloquence on such a sensitive subject has been touching & enlightening.

I began a thread on the health forums on pilots and depression through which alcohol featured very frequently as cause and effect.

If anyone should write a book, you should... and when you do, let me know where to get it.

Happy New Year to all.

Quite simply an awesome thread.

A wonderful depth of passion and consideration from some truly inspiring people.

Capt Prouse, your words are both powerful and considered. At the start of this thread I had the 'lock em up and throw away the key' mentality. You have permanently changed that.

Thank you

:D

LProuse

Yes, very educational. I wish that the many bosses and fellow workers that I was associated with during my working years (forget about any clear thinking after lunch) had been able to follow the path that you took.

I have a question about your post where you say " There is no shame in being a recovering alcoholic...". What advice do you give recovering alcoholics about revealing their state when they are seeking employment. Should they keep such a personal matter to themselves, if within the law, or is this something that they are encouraged to reveal? I ask because some unenlightened recruiters might just select the "other guy" everything else being equal.

LP
Thank you for your PM and my apologies for not replying likewise but I am in a region where my posts are far from favorable to my current employer (deservedly so) and think it wise not to use PMs for the time being (it pays to be paranoid).
I would ask that you PM however when item is available as discussed.
Regards.

Disclosure of alcoholism
 

Dear Mr. Miller,

You've asked a tough question. My answer will most likely be one that some, perhaps many, will not fully understand.

As far as employment is concerned, the Americans with Disabilities Act, known as the ADA, was enacted to prevent employers from discriminating against people with disabilities - such as being a recovering alcoholic (altho I don't consider that a "disability"). It's a complex act, contrary to the often simple and misdirected intent many ascribe to it. In a perfect world my status as a recovering alcoholic would not affect my chances for employment. Most of us know that's not the reality.

Let me set a foundation for what I'm about to say. Most of us who recover for the long term are involved in a 12 step program. Chuck is an example of one who's not; his treatment was a different model but he's successfully remained abstinent so who cares. It makes no difference to me how someone recovers; but I like the process I've chosen.

Honesty is perhaps THE most emphasized part of recovery (in the 12 step model) from the very outset. It cannot be selective or compromised in any way if the alcoholic is to remain sober...because dishonesty is one of the prime ingredients for active alcoholism. I have to lie to myself, my family, my friends, my employer, and to everyone else in order to successfully continue to drink. I lie when I say, "I only had a couple," or "I'm not hurting anyone but myself," or "You'd drink too if you were dealing with my problems," or "I work hard and I deserve a few drinks," and it goes on and on with a hundred more examples. I lie about where I was, how long I was there, what I did, ad nauseum.

So one of the first of the dubious luxuries I have to give up is dishonesty in any form, whether it's cheating on my income tax, telling "a little white lie" or anything else. We learn that anything we put ahead of our sobriety will be eventually be lost, and unless we believe that with every fiber of our being we will find ways and reasons to end up losing our sobriety. If you look around you will see ample evidence of that everywhere. Relapse requires self-deception and I cannot afford to tease the tiger in any way, big or small, because of the subtle, cunning, baffling, powerful, and patient nature of this disease.

I do not meet people in a shopping mall or any other setting and say, "Hi, I'm Lyle, and I'm a recovering acoholic." Yet I never shy away from or try to hide that fact. I believe I should disclose when it's appropriate and leave it alone when it's not. For the most part, it never comes up.

If a job application asks if I've ever been treated or diagnosed for alcohol or drug abuse my answer is a solid YES. To answer in the negative would be a lie and I cannot risk my sobriety by compromising my honesty. There are those who have never been treated or diagnosed professionally but who came to sobriety as a result of their own self-discovery. I do not think they are obligated to answer in the affirmative, but they may want to consider that very thoughtfully. Most employers do not ask this anymore due to the ADA, but in this day and age they can usually run a computer search and find out. And they can deny employment without ever mentioning the reason why.

As to whether or not I would volunteer the information openly, there's an old Marine Corps saying that "it depends on the situation and the terrain." Personally, I tend to disclose as I don't want something waiting to ambush me, but others have their own decisions to make in that regard.

Alcoholism is costly. Although I'm recovering, doors have been closed and I have been denied opportunities as a result of it, primarily because I chose to openly disclose it. But I need to accept it peacefully because "I did what I did...so I got what I got." I was denied life insurance, for example, but eventually a company asked me to sign releases for all my hospital records, sent people out to interview me and my wife, and I was eventually granted a very selective premium policy at a "less risk" cost (!) than the general public pays. Go figure. When the doors close, my job is to patiently and peacefully keep knocking until one opens.

I fly charitable flights for Angel Flight here in America. I fully disclosed everything to them prior to becoming one of their volunteers, and they welcomed me aboard. I will never put myself in a position where I must fear discovery.

If I take a flying job and try to hide, disguise, or camouflage my alcoholism, I will forever cringe when I get a notice from the chief pilot about something...wondering if this will be the time he calls me in and confronts me about it. I can think of nothing worse than to prematurely end my career due to some sort of happenstance where the past is dredged up and I'm let go due to a fraudulent employment application I filled out 10 or 15 years ago.

Recovery grants me freedom. Freedom from alcohol is the first I am allowed to experience. As I actively do the hard work demanded by each of the 12 steps (repairing the damage of the past when possible, making amends, continuing to take a daily inventory, etc.), I am granted more and more freedom. But freedom from the past, freedom from fear, freedom from shame and guilt, and all the myriad other ways I am allowed to experience it, can only come from total, uncompromised honesty.

Today I can walk anywhere, look anyone in the eye, hold my shoulders back, and move through life with nothing to fear. Sobriety has given me that I guard it jealously.

If someone chooses to look down on me, that's their business and none of mine. My job is to keep working on me; they have their own journey.

Blue skies,
Lyle

Dear Capt Prouse

Thank you very much for your reply. I didn't mean to put you to all of that work answering my trivial question.. As most of the others reading this thread have indicated I also have learned a great deal from your several remarkable posts. I intend to continue to follow this thread. Anyone who served in the Marines for ten years has got to be a tough and determined individual. Thankfully you now use your knowledge to help others. This is a blessing. RMiller

Bravo
 

Bravo Lyle, Bravo.

I must admit to have avoided this post, as the Gentleman in question that prompted it, is a mate of mine. Now I have to say (with selective reading) how glad I am I returned to read what you wrote.

Ten or so pages ago on this thread I recommended a book that gives some insight to anyone who may want to learn about the incredibly difficult road a recovering alcoholic takes when he makes that all-important decision to fix his (or her) problem.

I think - thanks almost entirely to Lyle and Chuck, (and we should all thank them both again) - there might be a few more of us now in a state of mind to look further than the knee-jerk reaction of "sack the guilty bastard and throw his licence away forever", so let me give the details of the book again:

"Matthew Flinder's Cat" by Bryce Courtney.

As I said above, it ain't a smooth downhill highway, and Mr Courtney certainly shows that in some detail.

I thought I would post again to mention that 22 years ago today I started my treatment at Schick Shadel hospital, since that day I have never had a drink of alcohol in any form.

I can only wonder if I would still be alive today had I not quit but one thing for sure this past 22 years has been far different from the days I was a slave to a drink with all the baggage that went with that addiction.

None of us think or feel exactly the same about things in our lives and each of us have only ourselves to answer to in the final analysis.

I wish to make a rather different comment at this point in time, most alcoholics who quit drinking think of themselves as recovering alcholics, I am going to step out of that mold and think of myself as recovered due to the fact I no longer have any symptoms of the disease.

I hope you all will give me that privelage to at least in my own mind step from recovering to recovered?

All the best to all of you in the coming years.

Chuck E.

Chuck:

Thanks to the thoughtful words of Lyle and yourself, I now realize that recovery is as much about mindset and self awareness as it is about being medically clear of the addiction. If 22 years of successful sobriety doesn't qualify you to consider yourself recovered, then I have no idea what would. I believe you've earned it.

All the best,

Jeff

J.O. I gave up smoking 20 years ago. A nicotine addict, I could start smoking again tomorrow - very easily. I believe in another 5 years I will still feel the same, but will never let the weed control me again.

I smell the air, taste my food and never cough anymore. I don't wreak of smoker's breath, my teeth and fingers are no longer stained brown and I walk 5 kms a day without breathlessness.

Like the alcoholic, I shall never be rid of this wretched addiction no matter how much time passes, but I enjoy life without smoking cigarettes.

Recovering...or recovered. Does it make any difference?
 

So...who cares? Each person must find their own level of comfort with this disease in order to accomodate their recovery and achieve - and maintain - their sobriety.

Since alcoholism is a chronic, progressive disease I consider myself recovering vs recovered. Chronic means "it never goes away, or it recurs". And, as I mentioned in another post, it's called "Alcohol-is'm...not alcohol-was'm."

Medical science shows that alcoholism never goes away but can be arrested. (Grin) - Once "pickled," a cucumber will never be a cucumber again!

So...recovered...or recovering...I've always smiled at the issue of "ed" vs "ing" as it seems pretty trivial as long as one is sober today. And I'm always curious as to why it should even be an issue. But...to each his/her own and it just simply makes no difference to me how someone else chooses to handle this. Each of us has to decide how we'll handle our alcoholism. If someone has been abstinent for 22 years then whatever they're doing must be working - and good for them.

I've had no desire to drink for nearly 17 years so in that sense I display no symptoms, either. But the disease is still active and hidden inside and will come alive the second I ingest the first sip of booze. The fact that it can't be seen is meaningless, in my view. Or perhaps, that makes it even more dangerous.

The use of "ing" (as in recovering) keeps me in the present as a reminder that I need to be ever vigilant about relapse. It's easy to "forget," after a number of years, just how bad it was and how bad it can be again, and many an alcoholic has discovered that to his or her chagrin - and sometimes demise.

Others may do what they wish, but I never want to believe that I've beaten this disease or got it made. My alcoholism will never be a thing of the past so I do not choose the past tense..it will never go away. My active alcoholism (as in "drinking") is, hopefully, a thing of the past but I never want to become complacent and think all my battles have been fought. Thus, I maintain a healthy level of fear and respect for my disease, remembering that the time to plan for war is in time of peace. I've watched far too many become victims of a mental/emotional ambush, wondering afterwards what the hell happened. Alcoholism is mental, emotional, and physical and two of the three axes reside where no one can see them.

So, "ed" or "ing," whatever... Again, to each his/her own. But I will always be recovering and am just fine with that. Once they put me in the casket (sober), they can change it to "ed". In the meantime, who cares..?

Blue skies,
Lyle Prouse

I wish to clarify something so no one gets the wrong impression regarding the horror of being an alcoholic.

Lyle said:

" But the disease is still active and hidden inside and will come alive the second I ingest the first sip of booze. The fact that it can't be seen is meaningless, in my view. Or perhaps, that makes it even more dangerous."

Of all the mistakes made by alcoholics forgetting that 100% true fact is the most dangerous thing one can do, I never, never, never ever lose sight of the brutal fact that I must never ever even think of even ingesting one gram of alcohol in any form. I never even eat a piece of cake without checking to see if it was soaked in rum before being cooked. For us alocholics that is like picking up a gun and putting it to our head and pulling the trigger to find out if it is loaded.

So please do not think that I feel I think of my self as recovered in the true sense of the word.....I only used that word to describe this moment in time.

Each of us must use whatever means we are most comfortable with to motivate ourselves to remain recovering forever.

Just thought I would clarify my thoughts so as not to have anyone think that an alcoholic can ever control his/her drinking by any means other than abstenience.

Chuck

booze and flying..........zero tolerance. end of story.:=

But the story will go on for as long as there is alcohol available in society and I am most definitely not proposing the return of prohibition.

I flew commercially for some years and in that time I was often 'under the influence' from the previous nights excesses. This is not something I am proud of but I have learnt lessons since which I hope might benefit others. My Flying career came to a sudden end when a melanoma was found on one of my retinas and subsequent operations led to a partial loss of periphal vision. My reaction was to drown my sorrows in a three month binge the details of which I won't go into except to say that in that period I reached a rock bottom the likes of which I would rather not return to. More importantly I came to believe and admit that I had a serious drink problem (of thirty years standing) and that I could not lick it on my own.
I have now not touched alcohol for well over a year and am most relieved and grateful to be able to class myself as a recovering alcoholic.

That I did not kill myself or, more importantly, anyone else when I was flying, and alot of the time certainly not fit to be doing so, is a miracle about which I have beliefs. That I have been given an opportunity to live a life as a recovering alcoholic is a fact for which I owe a large debt of gratitude.

I believe that an active alcoholic is nine times out of ten living a life of denial. Initially denial that any sort of drink problem exists and at the same time a denial of reality. Just as a drink driver might believe that he is not only capable of driving but maybe even better at it than the next person an alcoholic pilot can believe that he is completely capable of performing his duties and will rationalise his arguments to the extent that he knows he is right beyond doubt. I know this in no way exonerates him for his actions but it is an undoubted part of the illness

So to say that this cannot be done is unfortunately not the case. The story will continue and I feel an important question is how can the situation best be handled.

For my part I now work as a ground instructor and when not at work dedicate alot of my time to working with fellow alcoholics. One of the most challenging aspects (and at times rewarding) of this is addressing the question of denial. Once the problem has been recognised and admitted to, then and only then can steps be taken to make good damage done in the past and hopefully prevent further damage being done.

Well said Ollie. Thank you for taking the time to help others. I wish you continued good health.

pilot jailed
 

I am near the end of my flying life,(now recreational) but reading most of the pontifications on JD( who I do NOT know) I am forced to become very Biblical
He without sin may cast the first stone.
I would venture to say that most of the authors of the diatribe holier than thou, at some time of their flying life have broken the Bottle to Throttle flying rules be whatever thay were/are.
JD sound like any other Red blooded male who had a slip in judgment, but I would bet the remainder of my pension his F/O or Senoir Cabin attendant would have had a word in his reddening ear about pissing off home sick.
And called for a standby pilot due "ill health."
( he was Ill. just lost his marbles on one occasion) so now ostracised for the rest of his Life.
Come on Guys and some Girls,
Grow up and shoulder together.
The public envy us enough as it is, because we are all millionairs yeah.
BBG

Sad Fact
 

Unfortunately it's quirk of human nature that the imprisonment of one pilot and the ensuing possible total loss of livelihood is likely to stop more pilots from drinking before flying, than an accident with massive loss of life where alcohol was shown to be a contributing factor.

I'm full of praise for the successes of those posters who are recovering alcoholics, but there are also failures in the fight with alcohol and can we afford those.

i'm directly responsible for 1800 souls for 8 hours a day, everyday for 8 months a year. I would never hand over a duty to someone intoxicated, and i believe that anyone intoxicated who decides to try and take responsibility should be punished to the maximum extent and never should be given a second chance considering how important life is!!!!

I think anyone who believes otherwise should try to consider the position from a managerial point of view,.

........................ says L'aviateur, aged 22. :rolleyes:

1800 souls...thats one hell of an airplane

Have you read even one tenth of this thread? Somehow I doubt it, but in any case, it will no doubt be a surprise to you that many flight operations managers (myself included) do not take your view at all. Rather, we take the much more human view that people are an asset and that you manage them accordingly. Yes, you must intervene if they try to work under the influence, but you do not toss them aside as if they're trash. You show them the path to getting better, and you try to help them get back on their feet. When they accept responsibility for their past behaviour and they take the necessary steps to get better, you welcome them with open arms. The day you make a mistake (and you will, it's only a matter of time), I certainly hope your manager has a more open mind than yourself.

:)

According to his Profile, he's a ship's navigator and student PPL.

Ironically, he lists "drinking" amongst his 'interests'.

Consider the following transgessions, then consider their possible effects on third parties, the normal punishments and ultimate effect on the livelihood of the offender:

1). Professional athlete - tests positive for prohibited (not illegal) substance, bearing in mind that prohibited substances may be found in over the counter medicines.

2). Joe Public - attempts to drive or drives a car whilst under the influence.

3). Bus Driver - attempts to drive or drives a bus under the influence.

4). Airline Pilot - attempts to fly or flies a plane whilst under the influence.

Which do you consider to be the most serious? Seems to me that professional athletes get a pretty rough deal in comparison!

I lived in Dubai for 9 years and routinely watched Emirates pilots drinking to excess before flying and some of those observed were repeat offenders. This suggests to me that these actions are not being policed by the peers of the offenders or the industry. Again these people were "nice guys" not alcoholics. They were enjoying a social drink and knew exactly what they were doing. I'm reasonably confident that Dubai is not unique in this.

We have all read from earlier posters the notion that "we have all done this at some point and got away with it" and seem to be offering it as some sort of defence for the offenders. If this statement is correct the colleagues of these individuals have also knowingly ignored the events, so the internal policing scenario seems a bit flawed.

In Dubai, where JD has been jailed, this punishment certainly is not extreme as you can end in prison simply for being the manager of a company in which an employee has been injured or killed. No defence is being offered for Dubai here.

No one wants to see anyone lose their livelihood but certain individuals are not taking their responsibilities seriously. If the industry cannot take care of its own dirty laundry then it deserves all it gets

Judging by a few of the recent posts, it would seem we’ve found ourselves a whole new readership for this thread – and one that hasn’t bothered to wade through the very many posts that make it up before illuminating us with their wisdom. Little Boy, you say:Which begs the obvious question: …and you “watched” this “routinely” for 9 years and did nor said nothing?

I suspect your routine watching of EK pilots drinking to excess before flying can be given about as much credibility as the accuracy of your “knowledge” of this case.

The Human Animal
 

(Laughing lightly....)

Looks like the Merry Go Round has come full circle.

It's easy for me to take the high road of smug superiority and wallow in self-righteous delusions of grandeur, believing in my own near-perfection. Thus I can render all sorts of pronouncements, judgments, and brilliant argument to lesser beings.

The only thing I have to do is set my own personal standards low enough to let me think like that...

Blue skies,
Lyle Prouse

Recovering alcoholic, and honorably ret'd 747 captain of considerably more than 22 years of age and experience.

Wiley
I apologise for my error over the venue of JDs imprisonment, and yes it did seem fairly lenient for Dubai. I had read a large number of the posts before posting and a couple of those suggested that the offence occurred in Dubai. I have now read all of the posts including #135 which contained UK information.
I also note that you appear to work for Emirates so matbe you know what I'm talking about. So, whether you accept the information in my previous post as credible or not means nothing to me, it happened.
I do not and did not work for Emirates but did know some of the pilots to talk through my friendships with FAs and recognised others ditto. I suppose I could have called the cops or something, but aren't you guys who share a flightdeck in a better position to deal with it with less risk to these guys' livelihood.
I'm not on a soapbox ranting about sacking and banning people because they've had a few drinks. Flying whilst over the limit is an offence, its happening and if the industry doesn't deal with you can be sure, in this day and age, someone else will.
I work in the offshore oil industry where a number of companies now operate a zero tolerence policy where passengers can turn up at a chopper, fit to fly a plane, but will be sacked for failing the breath test and subsequent blood test.

A flawed argument I'm afraid. First of all, athletes who take banned substances get a "rough ride" not because they are putting lives in danger, but because they are cheating at their chosen profession. To compare that to flying, you'd have to be talking about a guy who got a flying job with a falsified log book. He too would deserve a "rough ride" when caught.

As for the car driver vs bus driver vs pilot, this too is a flawed argument. You make it sound like the pilot should be treated differently (i.e. more harshly) because of the number of lives at stake. Putting even one person's life in danger is wrong, period. Same would apply for a doctor or a trainman or anyone else. No one here has suggested that JD wasn't wrong in what he did. We simply believe he deserves the chance to redeem himself and get back in the seat, just like the car driver, or the bus driver, or even your professional athelete can do once their penance has been paid. The fact that EK would let their desire to save face get in the way of that is a shame. It certainly pushes them down several notches on my list of companies I'd want to work for, and I rarely drink at all!

For pilots who have returned to flying after completing a detox program and the twelve steps (or some similar support process), the success rate (i.e. staying sober) is over 90%. From a management perspective, that number represents a significant benefit by retaining alot of valuable experience. Those who succeed often go on to help others as well, such as Lyle, Chuck and the others who have spoken of their personal experiences in this thread.

Finally, unless you can prove beyond doubt that those EK pilots you claim you "saw" drinking to excess were actually under the influence when they went to work, you may want to think twice before making such provocative statements.

Little Boy, allow me to give you an example as to why I reacted the way I did to your – let’s face it – very serious allegation. And as you read on, the fact that you mention that your contacts with EK pilots was via your friendship with some EK FAs might be particularly pertinent.

A little over 12 months ago, (mid Jan 2006), a senior EK pilot was doing his annual line check, an 8.00am departure to another Gulf port. On the first leg, the check captain had left the flight deck briefly for the usual reason and when he returned, asked the captain if he could speak to him in private in the forward galley. He told the captain that one of the FAs had just told him that she had seen the captain at a party the night before ‘absolutely wasted’ only an hour or two before sign-on for the flight.

The captain was mystified, as the last thing even the most cock-sure of us is going to be doing before his early morning line check (or any flight!) is even attending a party the night before, let alone being ‘absolutely wasted’ at it. He asked to speak to the girl who had made the allegation.

“Oh, I didn’t see you; one of the other girls on the crew did.”

The other girl was asked to come to the galley and she was asked if what the first girl said was true. “Oh, it wasn’t last night – it was last week at *****’s party.”

“That was New Year’s Eve!” said the captain, (over a week earlier). “And I had the first few days of January off.”

“Yes, but you were really drunk.” replied the girl.

The two captains involved laughed the incident off – a classic case of Chinese Whispers.

I’m not sure I would have been so laid back about it. Those two young ladies needed to be made aware that there are consequences to making comments like that.

In your original post, you say you sawAlthough you don’t actually say it, most people reading a comment like that would take it to read “drinking to excess immediately before flying” (ie, late at night the night before an early morning departure).

It would seem from your second post that your sources who introduced you to these EK pilots are EK FAs. Is it possible that your routine sightings might have been a bit like the one I’ve detailed above? If they weren’t, and your recollections are accurate, I’d hate to think how you’d have felt if just on one of the many occasions over that 9 year period where you routinely saw EK pilots drinking to excess before flights, 300+ people had died due to the pilot being drunk.

Wiley,
Sadly, neither rumour nor conjecture. The only uncertainty on my part arises from the fact that I did not see these guys board the aircraft, that they did is the subject of 3rd party information. However I am pleased that this has shocked you as maybe the practice is (or was) not as widely spread as I had imagined. I don't know how long you have lived in Dubai, but the period I am referring to was from 1991 to 2000 although I am still a frequent visitor. Dubai during this period was a very different place from what it is today. In 1991 the majority of a relatively small ex-pat community congregated around certain bars in Bur Dubai and the Lodge and it was rare to see people you didn't recognise. At this time I lived in the Hyatt Galleria and later during the mentioned time frame frequently visited a certain bar just behind 5 towers (they were considered to be towers when built) on Sheikh Zayed Rd. Depending on how long you have been in Dubai you may or may not know the significance of these 2 venues.
My own recollectons in conjunction with reading this thread prompted me to post and I am trying, successfully or not, to raise questions in order to elicit an informed response.
JO
I find it hard to believe that my arguments are flawed as I have offered none. I proffered a set of scenarios and asked for answers. I did put forward my opinion that maybe Professional Athletes are treated a little harshly. Typically, those testing positive for prohibited substances will recieve a ban ranging from from 2-10 years which in a number of sports is effectively ending their career and their livelihood. We can look at this offence as cheating or as breaking their contract of employment. The other 3 activities involve breaking the (UK) law and possibly breaking a contract of employment as well.
We may or may not believe the legislation and / or the penalties to be fair but they are there and have to be accepted. Whether you or I agree with it or not is irrelevant, somebody somewhere obviously believes that drinking and flying is a more serious offence than drinking and driving hence
20mg/100ml and 2 years max
as opposed to
80mg/100ml and 6 months max
I am asking questions to which I do not know the answers, which arise out of what I believe to be a logical thought process.
Usually legislation is introduced in response to a problem or specific event.
Why was the legislation introduced?
Is there a problem?
Is the industry successfully policing itself?
If we look at the cases of the Royal Brunei and Emirates pilots sentenced to prison terms. Both had (please correct me if I'm wrong) BACs not only in excess of the flying limit but high enough to be considered legally drunk. In both cases they were flagged by security and in both cases their colleagues seemed to state that they noticed nothing wrong with them. From this thread and others it is obvious that there is some animosity between aircrew and security.........So, some more questions.
Did security on the days in question flag a number of pilots and these were the only positives?
Are most pilots flying drunk and therefore security have a good chance of a hit?
Do security flag any pilot who they may feel has a bit of an attitude? If so what's the success rate?
Did security on the days in question only flag these pilots and correctly diagnose the cause of the supposedly abnormal behaviour?
I don't know the answer to the above, I wasn't there.
Give me some sensible answers and put my mind at rest!

Little Boy

Usually legislation is introduced in response to a problem or specific event. Why was the legislation introduced?
In relation to the UK: No. The legislation was not introduced in response to a problem or specific event.
The Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003 was the first convenient legislative opportunity to bring UK legislation relating to alcohol/aviation into line with most of the rest of Europe. The blood/alcohol limit for aviation personnel is lower than that in shipping or on roads or railways, but reflects the Joint Aviation Requirements Commercial Air Transportation (JAR-OPS), adopted by the Joint Aviation Authorities (JAA) in 1996. The UK's adoption of this limit was intended to further the harmonisation of standards across Europe.
Before the 2003 Act, the relevant legislation was contained in the Air Navigation Order. In very brief summary, the new Act created an additional offence of being over the prescribed limit, introduced breath-testing and changed the wording of the offence relating to being impaired by alcohol.



The Royal Brunei and Emirates pilots sentenced to prison terms. Both had (please correct me if I'm wrong) BACs not only in excess of the flying limit but high enough to be considered legally drunk.
I can only comment on the Royal Brunei pilot who was dealt with in the UK. I represented him and am familiar with the facts of the case.
He was prosecuted for being over the legal limit.
There was no evidence that he was 'drunk'.
Had there been, he would have been prosecuted for the alternative and more serious offence.
There is no such thing in UK law as "legally" drunk, although evidence may be given which, if accepted, entitles a court to find as a fact that someone was drunk. I mention that only to correct your misunderstanding. It has no relevance to the Royal Brunei case for the reason I've explained.

Give me some sensible answers and put my mind at rest!
I have no idea why your mind isn't already at rest.
There is no evidence that alcohol is a serious problem in terms of flight safety. ie The stats show that the chance of an aircraft crash/incident being caused, or contributed to, by a pilot's ability being impaired by alcohol is so remote that there's no sensible reason to be worried.
If you've actually read this thread, as you say you have, then perhaps you missed the link to the result of a study into whether there is a problem. Given the tone of your posts, I think you would have found the conclusions reassuring.

If you want something flight safety related to be worried about, I suggest you read up about pilot fatigue.


FL

I just started reading this thread and I have to commend Lyle on his frankness and honesty. Not many people could own up to this type of behavior, take responsibility for it and then use it as a positive experience to mentor others.

I myself am struggling through this addiction and I can't seem to stop from drinking no matter how much I tell myself I need to. I've never had any life changing events that others have had that spurn them into recovery, like getting arrested or something. I have a spotless record, a loving wife and wonderful kids. I have no reason to get bombed nightly and yet I do almost every evening. I'm 32, have been drinking since I was 16 and I see the old alcoholics at the bar and realize I am heading right into their bar stool once they pass away. I'm not 20 anymore, not in college drinking with my buddies before a game or on a Friday evening. Drinking isn't fun anymore. I don't have a beer to take it easy. I drink to get drunk, to feel something more than what I feel when I am sober...which is something I can't exactly put my finger on.

I'd blame being on the road alot, in fact I have used that excuse before to justify drinking alone in a hotel room or at a hotel bar by myself, but I now understand it doesn't matter where I am, who I am with and what I am doing...I constantly crave having a drink and once I get the first one, I need to the second and then the third...etc. I am up to about 12 beers just to catch a buzz and another 6 after that to feel good, happy, relaxed.

I often wonder how things got this bad and who I could blame. Well the answer is no one except myself for being so weak to let this one thing have total control over me. I also worry what kind of example I am setting for my children. Obviously not a good one.

Anyway, once again Lyle thanks for the perspective.

Mr. Vicodan:

I would encourage you to make contact with your local chapter of Alcoholics Anonymous. I'd also encourage you to find a physician who specializes in addiction treatment. In the end though, it is you who must decide deep down that you want to get better.