Crossunder,

A very good post, congrats.
I can't see the muppets being able to reply to that.......................

Security Mandarins, come on read this post and defend your position!:ugh:

nice one crossunder.
comments from the floor?
must say this is a good thread has the press picked up on it yet, matts cartoon was good, we understand it but maybe he should have been wearing a pilots/cabin crew/atc/fireman uniform. the subtlty of having his wife search him is good ie a known person best form of id check is personal recognition.

Wind breaking news
 

Exellent news from STN security you may now carry baked beans thru screening points. Not quite so good is that they can't be in a tin. Not sure if good or bad news is that you can take baked beans thru loose!!

Crossunder, are you a pilot? Do you take off overweight sometimes. Fudge the loadsheet?

Do you cruise with the clackers on when you're in a hurry? Couple of knots faster than VMO won't break the plane? Not with your experience handling the machine?


No, Crossunder, I think you are a sensible guy. You know you can brake the rules but you better be 100% sure you know what you are doing, or you may follow them and be safe. Yeah, you may speed a bit on the road in your car, but when it comes to your work, you are the guy who does not fudge a load sheet and who does not willfully cruise with the clackers on. You do not break those rules. Your a professional.

Aren't you?

Please criticise the rules at will, but leave the people stuck in the middle alone.

Penko has a very valid point.....

Pilots follow rules, be they Vmo or MTOW for the current runway length and wind.

They may be a bit more hi-tech than the rules the security people have to work to.

Either may have dire consequences if not adhered to.

Some rules are more sane than others. Up to you to challenge them the right way and at the right level.

Quoting "Befehl ist Befehl" is tasteless, to put it mildly. You are not being asked to murder people, unlike the people the security staff are trying to keep off the planes.

wot, like the pilots!
why is it different at every base and can local managers impose their own rules as they like.
i want to know why i have to remove my shoes when i go thru security and the pax dont. protecting who from who. this is not random this is seen by me as spite against the aircrew. answer that please.
no matter how difficult, i go thru being calm and smiling, but i am wound up like a spring inside and i bet i am not the only one.

If pax arent removing their shoes at the search comb of a UK airport at the moment then AFAIK that airport is breaching the current DfT requirements.

PENKO, I can see where you are coming from but everyday there is only one face of Security we meet, the low achiever from school without imagination who will follow rules. No matter how obsurd, they will follow the rules. Like a few years ago when you carried a small pocket knife through, "You can't take knife, I'll have to give it to the Captain!" "Yes, I am the Captain" you reply etc. I could go on with others. It doesn't justify having a pop at these people, but that why it happens - frustration!

Our problem is that BALPA has not been listen to, the pilots have not been listened to those with real imagination are not listened to either. It also appears that people with an IQ less than the "friskers" are driving our country's security policies. We desperately need a proper security policy, program and enforcement but as long as nobody gets hurt, our damn politicians and civil servants can appear to be "doing something" and they can keep others out lest they rock the boat and show them to be the incompetent idiots they are.

PM

I hope that I am a sensible guy. I don't tweak the loadsheet, I don't exceed the Vmo (willfully) and I always read the checklists and brief the same old approaches time and again. But I do get carried away on the Forum sometimes ;)
I think I have made my position on this matter very clear, so I'll refrain from any further negative comments! I hope that we'll get a sort of biometric screening system up-and-running in not too long. The proposed U.S. system of easing up on frequent travellers and staff seems like a step in the right direction.
To quote Benjamin Franklin;
"Those who give up liberty for the sake of security, deserve neither liberty nor security."
Blue skies and happy landings! :)

Ok, let's look at things in a slightly different way. By the way, I am not going to state that security personell are the brightest minds on the planet. But what prompted me to react this time again, is the mentio of them being low-achievers.

Assuming you are a pilot again, do you not hit a grey area every so often on the line? A problem arises that is not mentioned clearly in the manual, but still a problem that may have some ramifications if dealt with 'improperly'. What do 99% of us do in a situation like that? Even though we have plenty of brains to come up with a right enough answer, we switch over in 'dumb play it safe mode' and call OPS. Why? Cause we follow the rules.

This happens in a similar way at the security checkpoint. Daily. They hit a grey area. They go uuuuuuhhhhh. And look stupid. Just as stupid as you sound when calling OPS. (absolutely no offence meant whatsoever;))

PENKO - I can't see things for your angle. The standard security frisker believes that they are doing a very worthwhile job and that the checks they do on us are vital. It is also easy to get the impression that aircrew are perceived as being the enemy by the manner of their treatment of us. Many passengers would also see themselves being classed as such as well. Unfortunately, because of the way the regulations are written and the manner of their enforcement there are so many holes in our security as to make their checking of us totally pointless. And this is a statement which no frisker or security manager agrees.

As for your comment regarding security grey areas, there are none. They, unlike us are not allowed to use their judgement. They follow rules, no if's or but's. But when I'm at work, I TRY to follow rules. Some are easy - speed limits, weight limits, duty times etc. but if I need to bust them to ensure the safety of the aircraft, I will. And that is the difference between them and us.

Finally, when I call Ops or my Tech Pilot, I don't feel stupid. It's to get or give information, to get help to solve a problem, fix a passenger's flight or whatever. I'm part of team whose job it is to get planes and passengers from A to B as safely and on time as possible, unlike...

PM

'Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools' - QED?

Piltdown man. What an apt name. Recognised as being a forgery and did not stand up to scrutiny. What a bumptious ass you are. As a semi retired senior manager of a very large US company working within security, I can vouch for the fact that most of our security people (like aircrew) are neither educationally nor intellectually challenged. The dft set the rules in the UK (good or bad) and allow no room to use judgement or discretion. Black or White it has to be. I think that your juvenile posting will work wonders for the security v aircrew relationship.

FLIPSIDEUP,

Just explain why there are all these different interpretations at different airports, all within the UK.

I'm not slanging anybody but the whole episode is encouraging pilots to put up with harassment that linits their ability to do their job as they would like to and pressurises them to continue to "keep the show on the road" despite their misgivings. You operate out of your base, all is well, you nightstop, operate out of another airport and items are now confiscated!!

Grow up and stop blaming pilots for getting p****d off.:ugh:

FLIPSIDEUP - You are part of the damn problem! For starters, you obviously cannot read or don't like what you do read! As I stated earlier, our friends who do the frisking are not allowed any leeway. I'm not expecting any! It's the DfT (in the UK) and the politicians who are the problem and to a certain extent the management of the security at airports with their various "local" rules.

Finally, any explanation as to why a person with a high interlect, excellent examination grades from university and a deeply inquisitive, probing mind would do the job of security (putting up with juveniles like myself), hour after hour, day by day etc. would be gratefully received by the majority of readers of this thread.

I'll stand up to any scrutiny and justify my position to anyone. Currently we have a problem which need fixing - ie. a lack of security. The solution does not that mean that you tell those who have a different opinion to yours to shut up or call them names. I'd suggest you do us all a favour and fully retire!
PM

Security personnel at airports have a job to go to because airlines fly people around, and pilots fly their planes.

Airlines however do not exist to provide security personnel with a job to go to, this might be worth keeping in mind.

Let's agree to disagree and finish this part of the discussion with a little useless trivia (I mean, how much time can I spend defending the good people who might confiscate my hair gel tomorrow):

Even the one time future queen of The Netherlands worked as an airport security friskerette at some point in her life at Schiphol Airport. And her former boyfriend the prince, he's a pilot!

Oh well. Maybe that's why she didn't become the queen, him being a pilot and all...;)

Just found this in the Chicago Sun-Times and thought it might take your mind off the sandwiches, soups, sauces etc. you had confiscated. ;)
http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-pump24.html
Evidence ruled sufficient in p*nis pump case
The female airport security guard held the small, black, squeezable rubber object she'd just plucked out of Mardin Amin's backpack, and eyed it suspiciously.
Standing next to his mother, an embarrassed Amin whispered out of one corner of his mouth that it was a "pump" -- as in a p*nis pump. The guard misunderstood the Iraqi man and thought she heard the word "bomb," Amin's attorney told a Cook County judge Wednesday.
"He told her it's a pump," attorney Eileen O'Neill-Burke said as a cluster of burly, snickering police officers watched the court proceedings. "He's standing with his mother. Of course he's not going to shout this out."
But after listening to the female guard testify she heard Amin "clearly" say the word bomb during the Aug. 16 incident at O'Hare Airport, Judge Gerald Winiecki decided there was enough evidence for the case to move forward. Amin, 29, is charged with felony disorderly conduct and faces up to three years in prison if convicted.
Hid it from mom
Prosecutors say Amin, who was on his way to Turkey with his mother and two small children last week, twice told security officials that he was carrying a bomb. Only later did he admit he had initially lied about the rubber object's true function because he didn't want his mother to know he was carrying a p*nis pump, prosecutors say.
After Wednesday's hearing, a mostly jovial Amin said airport security officials never gave him an opportunity to explain the misunderstanding. And he said he would never utter the word "bomb" while going through security.
'Half of America' uses it
"Come on -- what do you think?" said Amin, who lives in Skokie and works for a janitorial service.
Amin may not want his mother to know he has a p*nis pump, but he said he doesn't consider it an unusual device to own.
"It's normal," he said. "Half of America they use it."
Amin is due back in court Sept. 13
Regards
CG

Anyone who is dumb enough to try and carry one of those on board an aircraft deserves to be in trouble....:bored:

Chico

I s'pose you leave yours at home?;)