Ryanair worry the heck out of me and many other professional pilots.

If it were not enough that they fly a fleet of aircraft on a Flight Time Limitation Scheme that has no basis in objective science - the Irish one that allows strings of multiple earlies - and we are forced to share the skies with guys and girls who are driven by that imperative AS WELL AS the "turn up to work or your on a disciplinary" management style, the company's cost cuts are seeping out across the industry to enormous disbenefit all round.

I very much doubt that Ryanair use ANY of the modern methods of continuous safety management - a FDR trace review for excessive out-of-parameter operation of every flight, moderated by peers through the pilot union; an open and honest no-blame reporting culture; a safety incident data base that tracks every incident company-wide and provides open and full feedback to all crews as well as "closing-out" the process loops found to have been at fault, for example.

There is, of course, a cost implication to these, and though I would be genuinely delighted to hear otherwise, I very much doubt that these are in place. Likewise, I doubt that there is any meaningful training standardisation going on to check and verify training outputs against an objective standard.

This is NOT to denigrate in ANY way the pilots of Ryanair, but to question the PROCESSES and motives behind the probable lack thereof.

But there is much worse than that. The culture of getting pilots to pay for their own sims and conversion courses etc etc has led to a cost advantage for them that no carrier who does not do this can beat.

So what, one may say?

So everyone else who does not do this is reducing sim times and courses to the bare bones in an effort to claw back that 'advantage' that Ryanair have 'created' for themselves. Our sims have been cut from 4 to 3 hours on some fleets. Conversion course are at rock bottom in terms of sectors allocated and sims programmed. A certain "bare level of acceptability" may be being maintained, but it is just that, a bare level of competence.

There was a view within commercial aviation that quality was everything in creating a safe operation. You had to strive to create it on initial conversion, strive to keep it on recurrent training, AND strive to support it by the quality of, and commitment to, the processes you put in place to monitor and adjust the trained outputs that you were getting on the line.

That Ryanairs' anti-union, anti-pilot ethos attacks the core competencies of a safe operation is, to me I believe something that one can allege as being beyond doubt, that their stance on training is affecting the whole European industry to its great disbenefit in terms of quality and safety is something one can allege with just as much conviction also.

Totally and completely agree. The Irish regulators are a disgrace, more Third World than Western European. Lets hope the CAA will stand firm and one day insist that Ryanair operate to the same standards as the UK operators or prevent them from using UK airspace. Fat chance.

Everybody in the industry knows what is going on but the regulators just keep turning a blind eye. When the fateful day comes the hundreds of posts on this and many other websites will haunt those who had the power to keep aviation safe. I'm ashamed to be Irish when I think of Ryanair.

all i have to say is what a load of poo. i'd much prefer to work a steady string of earlie's on a stable roster then be subject to c.a.a ftl. i would say that 90% of the company would agree.

proof has been in the pudding so far that Ryanair operate to very good, safe standard's.

sleep tight now,or you ll probably stay awake all night worrying about getting out of bed in the morning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:O :p

ark your an Ostrich.

How can anyone have their mind on the job when O'leary is using underhanded tactics? Its time you pilots took action now before it's too late. Judging by some of your other posts on other threads ark, you advertise your ignorance in a big way.

What are the differences between the CAA and Irish rules that would effect the safety of Ryanair flights? I'm sure that many of us non-professionals would be interested to know.

perhaps they think we fly overweight - you see they fly for the likes of BA.

Guys, when the aircraft is full of passengers, the a/c is not overweight.

There... end of thread.

As a wannabe that reads about RyanAir here there and everywhere my simple thoughts on it remind me of the processess that were in place at a famous space organisation who were doing so well until a few accidents led to accident investigations which highlighted major failings in the company 'methods' & motives.

Having studied/researched that to a fair bit of detail and then reading about RyanAir I see similarity that is a bit spooky. I can only hope that RyanAir does not become the next "perfect example of poor HP/CRM etc" like trainers use Kegworth for.

Another thought is the amount of Pan/mayday's I have read that they issue due to fuel minimums (dont know how true that is) but if it is, I can only imagine this increases ATC workload and what if there was another A/C that had a real emergency and couldnt get processed becasue someone didnt take enough fuel becasue they wanted to keep their job !!

Or is it not really that bad ??

FS:ugh:

the tone of the messages you read are from bitter pilots who hate low cost strategies and know little about what they preach.

ryanair and easyJet are the best in the business, highest passengers per mile, best running times and excellent safety standards. thats why people hate them!

Can't beat the best..

yeah, but the best at what cost

atleast at Ezy the pilots have some say to put on the brakes a bit or redirect things if they seem to be going a bit in the dangerous direction...

management in most cases isn't aware of what limitations really lie, or what alternatives are perhaps available...

MOL says he hates pilots... he claims he isnt an aerosexual... so why should he know anything about contingency fuel? all he cares about is the pilots taking minimum fuel so not to carry too much and end up burning 'too much'...

that used to be the case, now thankfully no more thanks to a little intervention by Boeing...

A little backgroud info...

FDR is now installed fleet wise, but feedback to pilots is done by the company directly, and there is a general overhanging sense of fear of the box...

training is of a high standard... thanks to the TRI and TRE's hard work...

- seems to be normal for many operators. Lots of heavy iron skippers, some of them presumably "Speedbirdies", are these days informing joe public, that landing with minimum fuel is absolutely normal, and not compromising safety at all. So why pick on the LCCs on this matter? :hmm:

VK

I assume that evertyime someone declares a fuel emergency it is "recorded" somewhere. It would be interesting if these stats could be analyzed to see what %'ge of these are from which ever airlines. Does anyone know if/how this could be researched ? These could then perhaps be compared against the number of flights operated per week in order to get a clear picture (thinking being that obviously a larger carrier will have more than a small outfit just due to frequency of service). Just an idea....

FS

Perhaps FR needs the type of safety culture that allows a 747 to fly over the pond on three engines, you may not like it but they do have one of the best safety and on time records in the business.

Shock news - it has just been revealed that aircraft have been flying over the Atlantic on just two engines for many years - and they had the audacity to do this without permission from either The Times or Flight International. :p

The UK CAA will hold stats on every aircraft landing in the UK which declares an emergency due to low fuel. It is subject to a Mandatory Occurrence Report which is compulsory for ATC to complete, even if the crew, which may be foreign and not fully aware of the scheme, don't.

Landing with minimum (legal) fuel is a different kettle of fish.

What a load of crap. I don’t ever feel MOL breathing down my neck. The OFDM is one of the best things that have happened since GPWS.

How can it be an unsafe company culture to identify problems like pilots exceeding flap speeds, is it not a good company policy to identify problem areas and resolve them by changes in training procedures? It’s not used to punish pilots. Management won’t even know who the pilot exceeding a parameter is; it’s only intended and used to identify certain trends that need to be rectified.

We have an excellent and very stable roster pattern. I don’t think it’s a problem to do 5 earlies in a row. We have no overnights; I get to sleep in my own bed every night. I think it’s a greater safety problem to have a late start, sleep in a hotel, get up after minimum rest and go to work. I get a stable sleeping pattern during my earlies and at least 12-18 hours at home in between duty periods.

I’m not management, just a pilot with a little bit of common sense.

There are many things wrong with the management philosophy in Ryanair BUT the pilots are well rested very current. Two landings/takeoffs a day each into airfields that are limiting BUT not dangerous, with many circling and NPA. How does that compare with 1 landing every month in the safety stakes?? I notice a recent case of a female BA F/O wanting to go part time after four years in the airline. She had amassed 1100 hours in 4 years! Our pilots are current and will do more than that in 18 months, so who will be in better currency?

You may justifiably critisise the management but the pilots are some of the best in Europe. We do not exceed limitations and are monitored by OFDM just like the rest the major carriers.

I fly 5 earlies followed by 3 full days off (so in effect nearly 4 days off) then 5 lates followed by 3 full days off. Yes I am tired at times but far less so than I was under the CAA pattern. I see my kids everyday, often taking them to school and managing to see their plays etc etc.

The things RYANAIR has going for it are the roster patterns 5*, new aircraft 5*, great pilots and crew 5*, good pay 4*. The managment intimidation is a huge problem but hopefully will be sorted soon with very positive signs coming from Dublin. When thats been sorted out the airline will be a great place to work.

You can slag off the management as much as you please but your way off line hitting the pilots!

Irish FTLs??
 

Here's a little gem of info: there is no IAA operational equivalent of UKCAA CAP371.

Here's why: the operator submits their suggested FTL scheme to the regulator, who appraises them, and then rubber stamps them into the operators Ops Manual as the defined legal FTL framework for that airline.

Amount of line pilot input? Nil.

Amount of times the IAA have refused changes in the recent past? Nil. (The famous "resetting the clock" in FR comes to mind. 1800hrs in 18 months.....?)

So when MOL decides he needs a bit more flexiblity out of the guys, who does he ask? the pilots....?

Justbelowcap
 

I don't understand how a thread having a go about Ryanair turned into a pop at the IAA. All the aviation authorities operate under JAR rules - it's unfair, and untrue, and unwarranted to blame the IAA for any perceived problem you have with Ryanair.

FTLs, I still can only legaly do 900 hours a year, 100 in 28 days, max of 12 hour duty day before disgression. My rolling total is approx 840. The majority of my duty day is flight time, I do very very little riding around in taxis etc, maybe once a year! I havnt been into disgression in months.

Our FTL is fine. Your picking on the wrong things!

Ifleeplanes - great, I am genuinely delighted to hear this. This could and should be a great profession where the natural enthusiasm of the workforce for what they are doing, if respected and nurtured, can and will create profitable, secure working environments ANDd competitive products for the travelling public.

The degree of divide-and-rule management tactics evident here on pprune, (see threads on BACX, BMI baby, Ryanair etc etc), is testament to outdated, American-sourced management concepts that have destroyed more shareholder value than they have, or ever will, create.

My concern remains the issue of both 'pay-per sim' and its effects on other carriers in reducing their own sim times to a bare minimum in an attemtp to compete, with a consequent and worrying reduction in standards across the board, and the evident highly anti-pilot/pilot union stance that certainly appears from a distance to be incompatible with a safety culture at Ryanair.

All informed replies read with great interest. The level of debate on pprune seems to drop within about three posts to a trading of barbs at best, or insults at worst, that have little relation to the issue at hand.

I emphasise that my thoughts here are NOT in ANY way an attack on LCC's. Anyone, in my opinion, who holds a professional pilot's license is worthy of great respect, both for the massive individual commitment and effort involved in acquiring it, and also for the position of stupendous public trust that they hold by exercising the privileges of that license in the performnance of their job every working day.

From the outside it would seem that there is a range of interpretation under JARs and that some administrations are more, ahem, "flexible" than others.
Ireland and Iceland are often mentioned, but there are probably others.
In this age where survival is based on tenths of a cent in RPKs, tilted playing fields are sooner or later going to result in serious recriminations.

I agree the divide and rule sentiment is disgraceful and fingers crossed it will end soon. I dont pay for my sims, and never have done. I do have to pay for my HOTAC when Im doing them :(

Our standards are high and the sim isnt just a rubberstamp. One day we may be able to convince management to up their standards of management.....:ok:

don't blame us
 

i strongly suspect that if your company had gone bust and you were out of work, you too would be flying at ryan just like so many others. it is bloody difficult to get a job flying when one isn't flying. it is so much a matter of timing and catching the waves of hiring which a pilot really has little control over.

the flight deck is a safe as we make it. and when one grows up, one should have the ability to disregard whatever tactics happen in their office and set the atmosphere in your office-the flight deck.

and multiple earlies are actually more natural than starting with an early and ending on a late in the same week. i can set my alarm for a full week and quickly fall into a sleep pattern that is better than setting a different alarm time every day.

it sounds as if many of you think we should give up flying and work at pizza express rather than work for an airline that might bring your job under threat someday. (and guess what--your management will fill their pockets)

don't blame the pilots. you might be in the same boat sometime. but it won't really be my fault.

I can not understand why some of you think that the postings up till now have been blaming the pilots. No one has done so. It's a red herring and only serves to create bad feeling. Stick to the point.

Ryanair
 

I had the 'Pleasure' of flying en route to a 'positioning sector' via 'Ciampino' recently, twice, and I read the book autobiog on Ryanair, for something to do, Scary or what ! M.O. is a 'control freak' and very ruthless in his business accumen, and his motives, there is a lot of backroom double dealing always going on there and from the horses mouths of 'aircrew' who were not too shall we say 'discreet' in their airing thoughts of the company whilst engaged in their own conversations in the cabin/galley, to someone who did not fully understand either terminoligy or flight regs, it would have been 'Most' un-nerving, I was fortunate to be sat with two 1st O's (swedish) returning from very tight 'sector duties' to Stansted, both of whom were quite happy to lay bare the shortcomings of the company. Its unfortunate that the 'cannon fodder' usage of pilots and crew drives such high pressure businesss decisions, a lot more care and attention to details may help?
Someday, somewhere, and with some unfortunate results, It'l all go 'pear' shaped, and the people who will have to pick up the pieces will have been 'cast adrift' by the high command and left to face the music. Others will I'm sure be scuttling away protecting their own interests and looking to place blame elswhere.

What a load of bull!

So the person who started the thread now is a spokesman for other professional pilots.

All his of post is assumption and supposition. He clearly doesnt work for Ryanair and does he have any foundation for his comments or is our new spokesman just guessing what Ryanair is like.

I work for the company and yes its not perfect but as far as the flying is concerned the pilots I train are pleasantly surprised by the high standards set by the training dept and the trainers. And yes there is an active safety culture within the company.

Dont forget we are a LoCo so we have got to be doing it better and safer than some because our so called reputation.

Yes FR need pilots but they are not that desperate and people fail and that goes for experienced types as well. Eg 12 LOT(Polish Airlines)pilots turned up for the sim but only 2 got past the FR sim ride. And they are not alone.

The places we fly and the flying we do sorts out those who can and cant. If you are weak this sort of flying will find you out.

As for FTLs then I suppose his thrust applies to Aer Lingus and everyother Irish airline. Dont hear to many slagging EI.

Ask the Buzz guys they were working CAP371 as part of FR and the ones I know far prefer the Irish way now.

Brand new airplanes, home every night, a roster that no pilot moans about-now theres a first, shed loads of cash and shares, and an impeccable safety record.

It has its moments like any airline but lets put things rightly in perspective.

PS Ive never had or been put under any pressure by management on any flight. Full stop

How many times have you gone tech away from home base?

You don't because you simply fly an unsafe aircraft back to where it can be fixed. Last month an aircraft departed XXX with a front door slide inop but with a full load of pax. That is illegal and totally irresponsible. (Want me to print the dest/Flt #?)

You seem to think that the ability to actually fly the aeroplane is what makes a pilot. Most airlines can take that bit for granted. What makes a good pilot is the decision making process. The first and most important decision is whether the aircraft is safe to fly. In Ryanair the answer is always yes, simply because you have very few crew of the quality to say no to the intimidation they will no doubt receive.

This really all stems back to the airlines safety culture. Ryanair seem to have no Union monitored confidential safety reporting system (this is an airline doesn't even have a complaints dept), it can't because it has no union involvement. The sim checks are a joke. How many real time LOFT's do you do during your recurrent check? How often do crews not go into discretion?

With a Professional license come responsibilty. That responsibilty is towards those people who put their lives in your hands. It is vital therefore that the flight crew are able to have the last say in any safety issue. In Ryanair this simply isn't the case, poorly trained crews are not equiped to be able to halt the operation. This is the situation that, if it spreads will kill people. That is why it disturbs the professional. Ryanair are running the gauntlet and by squeezing costs so much they are forcing others to do the same. The whole industry knows this to be the case but the Irish regulators seem powerless to act. If it makes money it must be good. One day it will all go horribly wrong and the cost of MOL making lots of money will be the lives of those who flew in an aircraft that should never have left the ground.

Went tech not so long ago and engineers were depatched from STN to fix it.

But dont go tech very often because the airplanes are so well maintained.

Remember every FR aircraft sits on the ground at every base from 2330 until the first departures about 6am so the engineers have ample time to fix snags.

FRs operation can only work if the planes are well maintained and dont go tech. They are well maintained and invariably they dont go tech.

Believe it or not at a meeting with MOL after 9/11 we all assumed we would be entering night flying business to get better utilisation of the a/c but MOl dismissed this idea for the maintenance reasons above. Think we were all shocked and relieved at his response!

Take it you have done a FR sim check to qualify your statement or is this an uneducated guess?

The engineering at Ryanair really is first rate - whether at the bases or in STN, PIK, DUB or SNN. If the alleged departure with a slide really did take place which I find impossible to believe, why didn't you take the facts you claim to have to the IAA or CAA? I'm not expecting an answer...

Training is also of a very high standard. Just ask the many pilots that did not get past the sim check or even line training. The operation is more demanding than at mainstream airlines so it really does separate the men from the boys.

Any other "facts" regarding our (immaculate) safety records? Feel free to contact the IAA with evidence.

The airline is not perfect (with less sh*t coming from MOL and his merry men I dare say it would be) but the pay is good, rosters are great and so are promotion prospects. Something that can't be said about many outfits...

Do Ryanair restrict the amount of de-icing fluid that the handling agents can use to de-ice an aircraft?

sky9: complete and utter drivel

MOL has so many Pprune-type pilots squirming - he just has to be doing something feckin' right!

Ah! I wondered where you had got to.

That would be because EI work to an agreed set of working conditions, while FR work to the legal limits. Big difference.

So what your saying is that the agreed in house regulations are OK but the legal limits arnt? Yeah right :confused:

We dont dispatch with problems with the aircraft, I never ever have in many years with the company. Never heard of anyone dispatching with a slide U/S. We have a MEL just the same as everyone else, if itsays dont go WE DONT GO, simple as that!

As for restricting the amount deicing fluid, geeze we realy are dredging the bottom of the barrel now arn't we! Dont be so bloody stupid!


As for JUSTBELOW CAP

:No it isnt ! Your talking out your arse. We have well maintained new aircraft so the reliability is good. If the are U/S then they get fixed and we take another one.
Yes and we are professional show me how Im not, give me the proof you believe you have. Laughable!!!

We do and we exercise it

What complete and utter drivel ! I hold a JAA license that is approved and ratified I meet the requirements to keep it current. I am in excellent CURRENT practice. I am well traned and well equiped. You are talking out of your arse YET AGAIN!
:yuk

We moan and groan because our terms are being eroded slowly but surely. Paying for my HOTAC and my own medical hardly presents a flight safety hazard! We NEVER comprimise on safety and we are never pushed into doing so. Safety levels are never eroded and never will be, management realise that is a step to far. Now get of your high horse!

[/b]well maintained new aircraft so the reliability is good[/b]

I respectfully suggest that does not automatically follow.

Reliability decreases with time. With the odd exception, even Boeing has 'Friday' aircraft

Ummmm, with the greatest of respect, this is not the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. There is a condition known as "infant mortality" that applies to all systems including aircraft systems and structures.

New planes, like new cars, often have defects resulting from build errors. Then of course every time you maintain an aircraft you have infant mortality all over again.

There is no reason a 50,000 hr aircraft can not be as reliable as a 3,000 hr aircraft provided it is properly maintained.

Case in point many years ago was the gyros in F27 and B727 aircraft, solution to increase gyro life was ...... don't change gyros. Damage to the bearings during installation (brinelling) was the major cause of failure.

To put it another way, I'd rather fly in a 30 year old aircraft maintained by a top team of LAME's than a brand new aircraft maintained by the second eleven.

:ok:

Re De-icing fluid

I only asked because about 4 years ago the de-icing supervisor of a UK handling agent told me that there was a contracted maximum amount of fluid. (he actually quoted the figure to me). I’m glad to see that this is not the case.

I will remember that next time I go and buy a car...forget the modern new BMW car Im going for a clapped out Morris Minor with 120,000 on the clock just so long as its been serviced.

The 50000 hour plane can have the same relability provided its been properly serviced.....case in point! Problems are less likely to occur with new systems. Why on earth would anyone buy new modern planes if it were not the case? They would look for the oldest ones they could find and then maintain them well.

And with the greatest repect our engineers are hardly second 11.