Ryanair worry the heck out of me and many other professional pilots
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Ryanair worry the heck out of me and many other professional pilots.
If it were not enough that they fly a fleet of aircraft on a Flight Time Limitation Scheme that has no basis in objective science - the Irish one that allows strings of multiple earlies - and we are forced to share the skies with guys and girls who are driven by that imperative AS WELL AS the "turn up to work or your on a disciplinary" management style, the company's cost cuts are seeping out across the industry to enormous disbenefit all round.
I very much doubt that Ryanair use ANY of the modern methods of continuous safety management - a FDR trace review for excessive out-of-parameter operation of every flight, moderated by peers through the pilot union; an open and honest no-blame reporting culture; a safety incident data base that tracks every incident company-wide and provides open and full feedback to all crews as well as "closing-out" the process loops found to have been at fault, for example.
There is, of course, a cost implication to these, and though I would be genuinely delighted to hear otherwise, I very much doubt that these are in place. Likewise, I doubt that there is any meaningful training standardisation going on to check and verify training outputs against an objective standard.
This is NOT to denigrate in ANY way the pilots of Ryanair, but to question the PROCESSES and motives behind the probable lack thereof.
But there is much worse than that. The culture of getting pilots to pay for their own sims and conversion courses etc etc has led to a cost advantage for them that no carrier who does not do this can beat.
So what, one may say?
So everyone else who does not do this is reducing sim times and courses to the bare bones in an effort to claw back that 'advantage' that Ryanair have 'created' for themselves. Our sims have been cut from 4 to 3 hours on some fleets. Conversion course are at rock bottom in terms of sectors allocated and sims programmed. A certain "bare level of acceptability" may be being maintained, but it is just that, a bare level of competence.
There was a view within commercial aviation that quality was everything in creating a safe operation. You had to strive to create it on initial conversion, strive to keep it on recurrent training, AND strive to support it by the quality of, and commitment to, the processes you put in place to monitor and adjust the trained outputs that you were getting on the line.
That Ryanairs' anti-union, anti-pilot ethos attacks the core competencies of a safe operation is, to me I believe something that one can allege as being beyond doubt, that their stance on training is affecting the whole European industry to its great disbenefit in terms of quality and safety is something one can allege with just as much conviction also.
If it were not enough that they fly a fleet of aircraft on a Flight Time Limitation Scheme that has no basis in objective science - the Irish one that allows strings of multiple earlies - and we are forced to share the skies with guys and girls who are driven by that imperative AS WELL AS the "turn up to work or your on a disciplinary" management style, the company's cost cuts are seeping out across the industry to enormous disbenefit all round.
I very much doubt that Ryanair use ANY of the modern methods of continuous safety management - a FDR trace review for excessive out-of-parameter operation of every flight, moderated by peers through the pilot union; an open and honest no-blame reporting culture; a safety incident data base that tracks every incident company-wide and provides open and full feedback to all crews as well as "closing-out" the process loops found to have been at fault, for example.
There is, of course, a cost implication to these, and though I would be genuinely delighted to hear otherwise, I very much doubt that these are in place. Likewise, I doubt that there is any meaningful training standardisation going on to check and verify training outputs against an objective standard.
This is NOT to denigrate in ANY way the pilots of Ryanair, but to question the PROCESSES and motives behind the probable lack thereof.
But there is much worse than that. The culture of getting pilots to pay for their own sims and conversion courses etc etc has led to a cost advantage for them that no carrier who does not do this can beat.
So what, one may say?
So everyone else who does not do this is reducing sim times and courses to the bare bones in an effort to claw back that 'advantage' that Ryanair have 'created' for themselves. Our sims have been cut from 4 to 3 hours on some fleets. Conversion course are at rock bottom in terms of sectors allocated and sims programmed. A certain "bare level of acceptability" may be being maintained, but it is just that, a bare level of competence.
There was a view within commercial aviation that quality was everything in creating a safe operation. You had to strive to create it on initial conversion, strive to keep it on recurrent training, AND strive to support it by the quality of, and commitment to, the processes you put in place to monitor and adjust the trained outputs that you were getting on the line.
That Ryanairs' anti-union, anti-pilot ethos attacks the core competencies of a safe operation is, to me I believe something that one can allege as being beyond doubt, that their stance on training is affecting the whole European industry to its great disbenefit in terms of quality and safety is something one can allege with just as much conviction also.
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Totally and completely agree. The Irish regulators are a disgrace, more Third World than Western European. Lets hope the CAA will stand firm and one day insist that Ryanair operate to the same standards as the UK operators or prevent them from using UK airspace. Fat chance.
Everybody in the industry knows what is going on but the regulators just keep turning a blind eye. When the fateful day comes the hundreds of posts on this and many other websites will haunt those who had the power to keep aviation safe. I'm ashamed to be Irish when I think of Ryanair.
Everybody in the industry knows what is going on but the regulators just keep turning a blind eye. When the fateful day comes the hundreds of posts on this and many other websites will haunt those who had the power to keep aviation safe. I'm ashamed to be Irish when I think of Ryanair.
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all i have to say is what a load of poo. i'd much prefer to work a steady string of earlie's on a stable roster then be subject to c.a.a ftl. i would say that 90% of the company would agree.
proof has been in the pudding so far that Ryanair operate to very good, safe standard's.
sleep tight now,or you ll probably stay awake all night worrying about getting out of bed in the morning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
proof has been in the pudding so far that Ryanair operate to very good, safe standard's.
sleep tight now,or you ll probably stay awake all night worrying about getting out of bed in the morning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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ark your an Ostrich.
How can anyone have their mind on the job when O'leary is using underhanded tactics? Its time you pilots took action now before it's too late. Judging by some of your other posts on other threads ark, you advertise your ignorance in a big way.
How can anyone have their mind on the job when O'leary is using underhanded tactics? Its time you pilots took action now before it's too late. Judging by some of your other posts on other threads ark, you advertise your ignorance in a big way.
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As a wannabe that reads about RyanAir here there and everywhere my simple thoughts on it remind me of the processess that were in place at a famous space organisation who were doing so well until a few accidents led to accident investigations which highlighted major failings in the company 'methods' & motives.
Having studied/researched that to a fair bit of detail and then reading about RyanAir I see similarity that is a bit spooky. I can only hope that RyanAir does not become the next "perfect example of poor HP/CRM etc" like trainers use Kegworth for.
Another thought is the amount of Pan/mayday's I have read that they issue due to fuel minimums (dont know how true that is) but if it is, I can only imagine this increases ATC workload and what if there was another A/C that had a real emergency and couldnt get processed becasue someone didnt take enough fuel becasue they wanted to keep their job !!
Or is it not really that bad ??
FS
Having studied/researched that to a fair bit of detail and then reading about RyanAir I see similarity that is a bit spooky. I can only hope that RyanAir does not become the next "perfect example of poor HP/CRM etc" like trainers use Kegworth for.
Another thought is the amount of Pan/mayday's I have read that they issue due to fuel minimums (dont know how true that is) but if it is, I can only imagine this increases ATC workload and what if there was another A/C that had a real emergency and couldnt get processed becasue someone didnt take enough fuel becasue they wanted to keep their job !!
Or is it not really that bad ??
FS
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the tone of the messages you read are from bitter pilots who hate low cost strategies and know little about what they preach.
ryanair and easyJet are the best in the business, highest passengers per mile, best running times and excellent safety standards. thats why people hate them!
Can't beat the best..
ryanair and easyJet are the best in the business, highest passengers per mile, best running times and excellent safety standards. thats why people hate them!
Can't beat the best..
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yeah, but the best at what cost
atleast at Ezy the pilots have some say to put on the brakes a bit or redirect things if they seem to be going a bit in the dangerous direction...
management in most cases isn't aware of what limitations really lie, or what alternatives are perhaps available...
MOL says he hates pilots... he claims he isnt an aerosexual... so why should he know anything about contingency fuel? all he cares about is the pilots taking minimum fuel so not to carry too much and end up burning 'too much'...
that used to be the case, now thankfully no more thanks to a little intervention by Boeing...
A little backgroud info...
FDR is now installed fleet wise, but feedback to pilots is done by the company directly, and there is a general overhanging sense of fear of the box...
training is of a high standard... thanks to the TRI and TRE's hard work...
atleast at Ezy the pilots have some say to put on the brakes a bit or redirect things if they seem to be going a bit in the dangerous direction...
management in most cases isn't aware of what limitations really lie, or what alternatives are perhaps available...
MOL says he hates pilots... he claims he isnt an aerosexual... so why should he know anything about contingency fuel? all he cares about is the pilots taking minimum fuel so not to carry too much and end up burning 'too much'...
that used to be the case, now thankfully no more thanks to a little intervention by Boeing...
A little backgroud info...
FDR is now installed fleet wise, but feedback to pilots is done by the company directly, and there is a general overhanging sense of fear of the box...
training is of a high standard... thanks to the TRI and TRE's hard work...
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all he cares about is the pilots taking minimum fuel so not to carry too much and end up burning 'too much'...
VK
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I assume that evertyime someone declares a fuel emergency it is "recorded" somewhere. It would be interesting if these stats could be analyzed to see what %'ge of these are from which ever airlines. Does anyone know if/how this could be researched ? These could then perhaps be compared against the number of flights operated per week in order to get a clear picture (thinking being that obviously a larger carrier will have more than a small outfit just due to frequency of service). Just an idea....
FS
FS
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Perhaps FR needs the type of safety culture that allows a 747 to fly over the pond on three engines, you may not like it but they do have one of the best safety and on time records in the business.
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Shock news - it has just been revealed that aircraft have been flying over the Atlantic on just two engines for many years - and they had the audacity to do this without permission from either The Times or Flight International.
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The UK CAA will hold stats on every aircraft landing in the UK which declares an emergency due to low fuel. It is subject to a Mandatory Occurrence Report which is compulsory for ATC to complete, even if the crew, which may be foreign and not fully aware of the scheme, don't.
Landing with minimum (legal) fuel is a different kettle of fish.
Landing with minimum (legal) fuel is a different kettle of fish.
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What a load of crap. I don’t ever feel MOL breathing down my neck. The OFDM is one of the best things that have happened since GPWS.
How can it be an unsafe company culture to identify problems like pilots exceeding flap speeds, is it not a good company policy to identify problem areas and resolve them by changes in training procedures? It’s not used to punish pilots. Management won’t even know who the pilot exceeding a parameter is; it’s only intended and used to identify certain trends that need to be rectified.
We have an excellent and very stable roster pattern. I don’t think it’s a problem to do 5 earlies in a row. We have no overnights; I get to sleep in my own bed every night. I think it’s a greater safety problem to have a late start, sleep in a hotel, get up after minimum rest and go to work. I get a stable sleeping pattern during my earlies and at least 12-18 hours at home in between duty periods.
I’m not management, just a pilot with a little bit of common sense.
How can it be an unsafe company culture to identify problems like pilots exceeding flap speeds, is it not a good company policy to identify problem areas and resolve them by changes in training procedures? It’s not used to punish pilots. Management won’t even know who the pilot exceeding a parameter is; it’s only intended and used to identify certain trends that need to be rectified.
We have an excellent and very stable roster pattern. I don’t think it’s a problem to do 5 earlies in a row. We have no overnights; I get to sleep in my own bed every night. I think it’s a greater safety problem to have a late start, sleep in a hotel, get up after minimum rest and go to work. I get a stable sleeping pattern during my earlies and at least 12-18 hours at home in between duty periods.
I’m not management, just a pilot with a little bit of common sense.
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There are many things wrong with the management philosophy in Ryanair BUT the pilots are well rested very current. Two landings/takeoffs a day each into airfields that are limiting BUT not dangerous, with many circling and NPA. How does that compare with 1 landing every month in the safety stakes?? I notice a recent case of a female BA F/O wanting to go part time after four years in the airline. She had amassed 1100 hours in 4 years! Our pilots are current and will do more than that in 18 months, so who will be in better currency?
You may justifiably critisise the management but the pilots are some of the best in Europe. We do not exceed limitations and are monitored by OFDM just like the rest the major carriers.
I fly 5 earlies followed by 3 full days off (so in effect nearly 4 days off) then 5 lates followed by 3 full days off. Yes I am tired at times but far less so than I was under the CAA pattern. I see my kids everyday, often taking them to school and managing to see their plays etc etc.
The things RYANAIR has going for it are the roster patterns 5*, new aircraft 5*, great pilots and crew 5*, good pay 4*. The managment intimidation is a huge problem but hopefully will be sorted soon with very positive signs coming from Dublin. When thats been sorted out the airline will be a great place to work.
You can slag off the management as much as you please but your way off line hitting the pilots!
You may justifiably critisise the management but the pilots are some of the best in Europe. We do not exceed limitations and are monitored by OFDM just like the rest the major carriers.
I fly 5 earlies followed by 3 full days off (so in effect nearly 4 days off) then 5 lates followed by 3 full days off. Yes I am tired at times but far less so than I was under the CAA pattern. I see my kids everyday, often taking them to school and managing to see their plays etc etc.
The things RYANAIR has going for it are the roster patterns 5*, new aircraft 5*, great pilots and crew 5*, good pay 4*. The managment intimidation is a huge problem but hopefully will be sorted soon with very positive signs coming from Dublin. When thats been sorted out the airline will be a great place to work.
You can slag off the management as much as you please but your way off line hitting the pilots!
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Irish FTLs??
Here's a little gem of info: there is no IAA operational equivalent of UKCAA CAP371.
Here's why: the operator submits their suggested FTL scheme to the regulator, who appraises them, and then rubber stamps them into the operators Ops Manual as the defined legal FTL framework for that airline.
Amount of line pilot input? Nil.
Amount of times the IAA have refused changes in the recent past? Nil. (The famous "resetting the clock" in FR comes to mind. 1800hrs in 18 months.....?)
So when MOL decides he needs a bit more flexiblity out of the guys, who does he ask? the pilots....?
Here's why: the operator submits their suggested FTL scheme to the regulator, who appraises them, and then rubber stamps them into the operators Ops Manual as the defined legal FTL framework for that airline.
Amount of line pilot input? Nil.
Amount of times the IAA have refused changes in the recent past? Nil. (The famous "resetting the clock" in FR comes to mind. 1800hrs in 18 months.....?)
So when MOL decides he needs a bit more flexiblity out of the guys, who does he ask? the pilots....?
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Justbelowcap
The Irish regulators are a disgrace, more Third World than Western European.
I don't understand how a thread having a go about Ryanair turned into a pop at the IAA. All the aviation authorities operate under JAR rules - it's unfair, and untrue, and unwarranted to blame the IAA for any perceived problem you have with Ryanair.
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FTLs, I still can only legaly do 900 hours a year, 100 in 28 days, max of 12 hour duty day before disgression. My rolling total is approx 840. The majority of my duty day is flight time, I do very very little riding around in taxis etc, maybe once a year! I havnt been into disgression in months.
Our FTL is fine. Your picking on the wrong things!
Our FTL is fine. Your picking on the wrong things!
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Ifleeplanes - great, I am genuinely delighted to hear this. This could and should be a great profession where the natural enthusiasm of the workforce for what they are doing, if respected and nurtured, can and will create profitable, secure working environments ANDd competitive products for the travelling public.
The degree of divide-and-rule management tactics evident here on pprune, (see threads on BACX, BMI baby, Ryanair etc etc), is testament to outdated, American-sourced management concepts that have destroyed more shareholder value than they have, or ever will, create.
My concern remains the issue of both 'pay-per sim' and its effects on other carriers in reducing their own sim times to a bare minimum in an attemtp to compete, with a consequent and worrying reduction in standards across the board, and the evident highly anti-pilot/pilot union stance that certainly appears from a distance to be incompatible with a safety culture at Ryanair.
All informed replies read with great interest. The level of debate on pprune seems to drop within about three posts to a trading of barbs at best, or insults at worst, that have little relation to the issue at hand.
I emphasise that my thoughts here are NOT in ANY way an attack on LCC's. Anyone, in my opinion, who holds a professional pilot's license is worthy of great respect, both for the massive individual commitment and effort involved in acquiring it, and also for the position of stupendous public trust that they hold by exercising the privileges of that license in the performnance of their job every working day.
The degree of divide-and-rule management tactics evident here on pprune, (see threads on BACX, BMI baby, Ryanair etc etc), is testament to outdated, American-sourced management concepts that have destroyed more shareholder value than they have, or ever will, create.
My concern remains the issue of both 'pay-per sim' and its effects on other carriers in reducing their own sim times to a bare minimum in an attemtp to compete, with a consequent and worrying reduction in standards across the board, and the evident highly anti-pilot/pilot union stance that certainly appears from a distance to be incompatible with a safety culture at Ryanair.
All informed replies read with great interest. The level of debate on pprune seems to drop within about three posts to a trading of barbs at best, or insults at worst, that have little relation to the issue at hand.
I emphasise that my thoughts here are NOT in ANY way an attack on LCC's. Anyone, in my opinion, who holds a professional pilot's license is worthy of great respect, both for the massive individual commitment and effort involved in acquiring it, and also for the position of stupendous public trust that they hold by exercising the privileges of that license in the performnance of their job every working day.
