The Demise of the Professional Pilot
 

The Demise of the Professional Pilot

It is very sad to see, and must be very concerning for those pilots with years to go before retirement, or those considering a career as a professional pilot.

In the past the Airline Captain was a rewarding and satisfying career. The pay was commiserate with the expense and work required to obtain the qualifications, and study/work to maintain your qualifications (e.g.: recurrent Sims, CRM, DG’s courses, Tech Knowledge etc) and the experience that had to be gained over many years before you could Captain a Jet Airliner. The conditions (i.e. days off, duty hour restrictions, company restrictions, annual leave, benefits etc) compensated for the many duties flying throughout the night, through different time zones, with half your year spent in a hotel room far from your home and family. Compared to other professions like doctors, lawyers, accountants who also may have worked long hours, but could go home to the family each night.

Look at how things have changed in recent years. Selfish, Greedy Airline Owners, CEO’s and Managers have turned this profession into a sad and sorry state. Professional decision making has been taken away from the Captain, and given to the Managers, Rostering and Commercial Departments. Yes on paper you are still the one to make the final decision, but look deeper, even on this forum, and you will see if you try to exercise your responsibilities you will be deemed to be a trouble maker, or acting against the company’s best interests and be held back, intimidated, sacked or forced to leave.

With the introduction of low cost carriers, who basically keep their fares low by paying all pilots, flight attendants, engineers, check in staff and loaders minimum pay, are rostered long hours and with negligible benefits, all airlines are cutting their pay and conditions to compete. Yet even these low cost companies are continually reducing their staffs pay and conditions. Just look on this forum at airlines such as Ryan Air, whose pilots apparently have to pay for their own recurrent training with the airline. (See www.ryan-be-fair.org). The only salaries increasing in this industry are the CEO’s, BOD’s and Managers , who continually vote themselves pay rises and bonuses while all other staff are faced with pay cuts due reasons such as rising fuel prices, SARs, competition etc. With China’s and India’s economies strengthening, and therefore their requirement for fossil fuels increasing you have to expect even more drastic pay cuts to compensate, as all the other fixed costs such as aircraft and equipment will not decrease, therefore the only option left is to cut staffs pay and conditions, and to operate with less staff who work longer hours, for less money.

I believe these Airline Owners, CEO’s and Managers should be despised and held in contempt for their greedy and intimidating management.

Of course you will always get low experience pilots taking positions with them to gain experience, but where do you plan to go once you’ve gained the experience. Most major National Carriers and other supposedly non low cost carriers are drastically reducing their pay and conditions to compete, rather than all airlines raising their fares.
The pay for many airlines is lower, or soon will be, than for bus drivers, train drivers, heavy machinery operators with limited financial outlay, exam qualifications, or recurrent training. I’m sure they could have been pilots if they wanted to spend the money, and years of study required. If fact their duty time limitations are getting more restrictive than pilots.

Then you have the relevant CAA’s, FAA’s who seem way out of touch with the hours required by today’s airline pilots. Since the duty times were introduced years ago, every time a new longer range aircraft is introduced airlines ask for longer duty hours to fly them, and the CAA’s always say yes. Nowadays we can work a 12, 14, 16, 18 hour plus, duty, throughout the night, on many consecutive nights, and in many cases, as with our airline, they don’t even require a bed to sleep, just an upright seat, with all the lights on, noisy passengers, flight attendant services etc.
While we have slip patterns that take us on all night flights from the UK to Aus & NZ (13 hour time zone changes) within a few days, minimum rest then back again, with one maybe two days at home base before were off again. Have they heard of Jet Lag, you cannot always sleep when you have too because your body clock wont let you. I think for them Jet Lag is something they get when they go on a long flight on holiday, and then they sit on a beach for 10 days before flying home. The most taxing operation they have to do if figure out how that flexi straw in their pinacolada works. Try operating a Jet in fowl weather after flying several long flights on consecutive nights, for several months on end.
Yet ironically these twits making and extending these duty time limits sit in a quiet office from 9am to 5pm from Monday to Friday.
The flight and duty times has just been extended. Also as these new ultra long range aircraft are emerging the CAA’s and DCA’s of the world have allowed only the time in the front seat to be counted as duty time, therefore a 16 hour flight, with 18 hours of duty time could be counted as only 9 hours for example, therefore you can expect to do an extra trip or two a month. You can have it.
You’ll have to have a strong marriage to cope with that. If it doesn’t you’ll have to plan on working until your 65 to crawl back financially to where you were before the divorce took half of everything you had. Of course I’ve seen this already with long haul pilots.
Then in their wisdom they write a CAP371 best practices recommendations which are not mandatory, knowing only a handful of airlines will actually implement them. So the majority of airlines work their crew’s right up to the max hours ignoring these recommendations. They should be mandatory, otherwise don’t bother issuing them.

The hours worked, with multi sector short haul, or consecutive long haul, with fatigue due to jetlag etc, are unsustainable for a 40 year career. Some may feel they can work these hours just to gain enough experience to move to a respectable airline, yet the respectable airlines are very few now, and the working hours of these airlines are constantly been extended, and pay been reduced. A few pilots in the airline I’m with have retired early as they could not cope, or did not wish to try and cope with the hours been rostered, since our roster patterns were changed 3 years ago. One lost his medical. Yet it’s a lot of money and work to outlay to obtain the qualifications to only plan to do it for 15 to 20 years until you’ve burnt out, then move on to do something else. Can you imagine a doctor or lawyer plan on only working for 15-20 years before retiring and looking for a change of jobs? Then with the pay been constantly reduced it’s unrealistic to think you’ll have any where enough money to retire from flying and start a new line of work.
Can you count on working these hours for 40 years and keeping your medical? Certainly it won’t be long before the retirement age is 65 for pilots, assuming you maintain you’re medical until then. Yet this may be required to put aside sufficient money to retire comfortably.

Many pilots in the company I’m with are angry and are looking to leave, yet they can’t find a better job to go to at the moment. Others are saying they hope to get out of the industry in 3 to 5 years. If there is a pilot shortage in the future, then just expect to have to work longer hours to crew the schedule (this has happened in the airline I’m working with).

It’s time Airline Owners, Airline Management and the Governing CAA’s, FAA’s and DCA’s of the world were held responsible. As has been documented, Airliner incidents and accidents are normally a series of factors, with documented proof fatigue and commercial pressure is one of the major contributors, therefore the next time an accident is blamed on pilot error, check if fatigue or commercial pressure was a factor, and pass the blame directly on the above. It’s easy to say the Captain has the final responsibility, but as with the airline I am with, if I was to refuse to do the flight, or stand down due to myself or my crew been fatigued, my contract would be terminated immediately with no reason given.

Am I been dramatic? Yes
Am I been pessimistic? Yes
Am I angry? Yes
Am I been realistic? Yes

Good luck and good health, you’ll need it.

Well said. Unfortunately you are correct.

The only people who can stop the rot are pilots and we have pretty well demonstrated ourselves to incapable or uninterested in doing so. Just look, for one example, at the thread on the breathalysed pilot for a good example of (a) something that would never have been contemplated in the past, and (b) for the range of pilot opinion on a matter where there should be a consensus. How many young pilots today would have refused?

Ours is a job in which our professional autonomy has been taken from us because we did not protect it. Nothing is likely to change, except for the worse. What Ryanair started by demanding payment for type ratings, etc. is gradually moving to other airlines ... and so on and so forth.

Those in established carriers think they are above and remote from these influences... but they are WRONG. They will be attacked, successfully, from below.

Depressing, but true.

TDF380:

While I can't share your pessimism, I do share your concern regarding the cumulative effect of fatigue on long haul pilots as the range of aircraft increases. But, like anything else that concerns us these days when it comes to safety, it's a tough uphill battle to convince the rule makers that the risk will eventually come back to bite the industry very hard. Still, it's a battle worth fighting, and there's plenty of evidence to support the fight. Pilot unions and associations should be leading the charge on our behalf.

You make one statement which concerns me greatly, and I do hope you carefully consider the ramifications of it. You said, "if I was to refuse to do the flight, or stand down due to myself or my crew being fatigued, my contract would be terminated immediately with no reason given." First, is that really the safety culture within your company? If it is, you and your colleagues are in serious trouble, IMHO. At the very least, the safety manager(s) in your company should support a crew member's right to remove themselves from duty when fatigued, and they should make it known to management that dismissal for doing so is simply not on. Second, and more important, have you considered the potential ramifications to you (and/or those you love) should you have an accident during which it is proved that you were knowingly fatigued? No pay cheque or retirement plan is worth that, IMHO.

Safety Guy
You may not have been in the trenches in the last few years, but things have definitely changed for the worse.
It is now common for those who stand up for what is right to be labelled as troublemakers, and even their fellow pilots accuse them of being anti-company if they do not bend over backwards and keep the operation going, even if it means bending the rules.
When their jobs are threatened, some pilots seem to lose their integrity quicker than than anything else.
Let us hope that the darkest hour is passed, and things will improve from now on, because it has been ugly.

Nothing in TDF380's post stops a pilot from being professional......

I agree with '380.

BALPA aren’t doing anything about it.

What are we going to do?


http://www.80scartoons.8k.com/roobarb6wee.gif
I’ll take on the opposition anyday. It’s my management I can’t beat!

Well said TDF 380,

I totally agree with your concern for the demise of the industry. I think a more positive stance from flight crew would have stopped this a long time ago, however, there are to many pilots willing to self type rate. Judging by ryanair it doesnt stop at self type ratings.

I have sadly seen for myself, friends operating in the air taxi work, being undermined by pilots working for free, yes FREE. Unable to negotiate pay rises or medical expenses. They like flying air taxi but after becoming depressed and being cornered into accepting pay cuts, working longer hours , they have packed up and left the industry.

So these pilots working for free, There excuse? I need the multi time. But what happens when they leave after gaining these multi engine hours? working for another employer for low pay and long hours.

So what employer would'nt recruit somone willing to work Long hours and accept irregular working patterns and for FREE ?Would this happen in the legal, dentist, accountancy fields ? Like :mad: it would .

So as TDF 380 witnesses colleagues retiring early after a 15 - 20 year period, How lucky are they , I have friends throwing the towel in much sooner without ever flying a commercial or corporate Jet and looking at going bankrupt. So where and how does this stop?

I think it is time for all pilots to be more proactive in there stance against such working practises. Balpa and other organistaions seem to have lost there fighting spirit.

TDF 380,

To right, those of us in well run, great companies are facing the drip drip of cost cutting and corner cutting. Mostly as a result of pilots in LoCos companies accepting second best and getting shafted daily. The sad thing is they know nothing better.

Joyce Tick: Fatigue and low moral affect a pilots professional attitude.

Pilots are too self deprecating- You would never hear a GP saying that they are just panadol prescribers!

Well said. We'll see more of these posts from time to time, I expect.

I'm very glad to have got out of the airlines, into a wonderful job with great people, which uses my skills and adds to them, whilst having none of the down-sides of the airline routine.

My friends tell me that since my job change, I've become a different person, much more the way I was years ago before I got into public transport flying. I feel much, much, happier, younger, more healthy, and more positive.

The most important thing I have realised, is how little I was aware of the effect that an airline job was having. Only when a good friend and colleague of mine had a near-breakdown did I start to realise the damage being done.

Whilst I dont fly for a carrier, I understand , I think, the gist of this. For those who aspire to be captain with any major carrier would any of you care to tell us what your annual gross pay is? I stress gross and not net pay, including all taxable and non taxable allowances. Perhaps some budding captains may think twice. Before anyone shouts, yes I know money is not everything but it does assuage some of the feelings.

Hi Ms T Ozi,

Thank you... You are the kind of twit of whom I refer! You would not know a good job if it bit you on the nose. Ryan air!! This is a wind up.:p

Down with the non-commercial pilot!

Good old Moritz... oops, I meant Ms Turret. This is all part of the process of aviation going the way of the merchant shipping industry- flag of convenience hulls, with crews drawn from wherever in the world they are cheapest. It is interesting that there is a quite close correlation between the safer airlines, and the salaries they pay...
Good luck at contract renewal time, there WILL be someone cheaper available, ready and willing to take your job. Or next time the company introduces a new type: accept the new Ts&Cs, or don't get transferred onto it.
Troll.

It will be no compensation or comfort to know that the above statement could be made of ANY business or organisation that I have heard of, or come into contact with, in the past 27 years of my working life.

Yes, it is grim that the folks up the front are having a bad time and grim that the saftey margins are bing whittled down - but they are being changed in every walk of life. To give but one example, goverments used to plan far ahead, consult and move forward with care. Anyone want to say that they still do that? In the same way that govts are hurting more people and wasting as much money as they save, so are airlines/banks/supermarkets. The British govt connived at the death of many in Iraq and will connive at deaths in the airline world. That is what mankind does, so I join the pessimisim.

BUT remember that the folks becoming pilots now will not have known the previous way of doing things and so will not think things so extreme. In the same way that the young people entering my main field (telecommunications) do not think the demands made of them to be unusual. Relativity? That'll be the one!

We can only watch out for ourselves and those near to us.

Even more frightening. . . by far!
 

Yes the position of Captain has been watered down, dumbed down, almost disolved or so my old man tells me and he should know he was one of the youngest Lancaster bomber captains during the early days of the second world war. He then went on to fly Comets, 707 and 747 aircraft retiring from BA just before the Captain became "just one of the crew". . .

But what I find more frightening is this. . why would a young man bother to work his bxxxxx off at school then universtity then flight school and obtain the ATPL(Frozen) to take a job for the "peanuts" a new F/O is offered and the absurdly poor working conditions? All he has to do is father 4 or 5 children (that bit is quite fun) hold out his hand and at only 20 years of age be handed, yes handed, Welfare of more than £1000 a month totally tax free, be given a "free" council house and all the contents therein and when challenged as to why an able bodied young man is not working his retort is "I am too busy looking after my young children to work" . . . .enuff said!!!

The Welfare State was the socialists answer to a problem but has now become the PROBLEM !!

Ali, well said.

If I only knew then what I know now I would have stayed in my previous career.

I earn the same as a Headmaster of a Secondary School as a Captain of a large modern jet, but have a damn sight more peoples lives at my fingertips, resting on split second descision making.

The whole situation is disgusting.

380, you deserve a medal for your post.

If Safety Guy cares to read the latest comments about Royal Brunei in the Far East Forum he will discover the airline that encapsulates all his concerns in his 2nd paragraph. One of the worst examples anyone could find.

This is why I'm leaving my company. Gonno fly bis jets whenever required, no major time zone changes, minimum hours. Do something else in my spare time, be with my family more and enjoy my life. I remember when I first started in the business it was seen to be quite glamorous, not any more. We are under rated and undermined. When I first had children I would have pushed them into the aviation business, not any more. There are far more professions now that are held in higher esteem, and command higher salaries.

What a laugh :O

That statement very nicely sums up the attittude of a lot of so called "professional" pilots out there. Some of whom are now CEO's or airline senior managers !!
What goes around comes around........we only have ourselves to blame :ugh:

Off for a Chinese now.........

DP

So what do you want the managers to do in the current climate? Do you really think that cutting top managements’ pay is going to be enough to cover the salaries of all the pilots? Of course not!

There are so many other factors to think of and if any union thinks of revolting, things sadly will become worse in the industry.

I am a pilot wannabe myself, but I know that a strike at the moment will have undesirable consequences. Furthermore, what guarantees that lower salaries are not going to spread to other industries?

I hear that a starting F/O in UK will make around 35, 000 Pounds pre-tax. According to my knowledge that is still a good salary, but not perfect. Could any Brits elaborate more on how good such a salary is? I'm still new to the UK and am not acquainted with its salaries.

Of course I would love to have a higher salary as a pilot. If I go into another job with better salary/conditions I will miss on all the fun of hoping around all the time. I have been living in many different places all my life and can't imagine settling down in one place now. I still want to be on the move, that's one of the main reasons why I want to work as a pilot. And yes, I know it will no turn out as glamorous and beautiful as I think, but, hey, I like it!:D And the idea of a person travelling all the time still seams glamorous to many people (especially if they hate 9-5 jobs like me).

cheers:ok:
guybrush

Guybrush Hmmm Not many people start on 35,000 UK pounds a yr. Not much either when you try and buy a house in the UK. I guess you could buy a pyramid for 35 grand. Not in the UK, I'm afraid....

Ah but, Ah but, Ah but, Ah but, these pilots who are now managers do not have a clue because they got pregnant by sitting on a toilet seat after feeling the f/o's breasts, but that doesn't matter as the CSD has been caught smoking in the toilet and the flight attendant spewed before the flight. Anyway I don't care cos I told my instructor that you get AIDS if you smell so he's got it and my friend elsie got it by checking her flaps. In any case mum says be wary of all professional people cos they will all get you pregnant.

Exactly :ok: :p :p

Just to clarify the wage situation in the UK, I moved into the right seat of a turboprop in 1998 from GA air taxi, and was paid the princely sum of £19,500 before tax, 1 1/2 years later got an early command at £34,000.

Moved companies to a low cost as an FO again and started on £38,000 ( + £4000 sector pay)

Not bad some could say, BUT! and a very big but! my plumber and my local Corgi register Gas technician actually earns more me!!!:mad:

Luckily again an early command 6 months ago, has bumped my salary up to a more respectable level, but in 4 Years at this company has shagged me out completely, working from 6am on my first day on til 11.30pm on my sixth or sometimes seventh day, that I've decided to move companies so I actually have a chance of reaching my retirement age in 32 years with a valid medical certificate!:\

When, or if I ever have children, I will certainly never promote a career in Aviation to them! and that is a sorry state of affairs!

Maybe I should follow my brother into the computer graphics world and earn his salary of over £ 100,000 per annum, to sit in front of the computer 9 til 5, 5 days a week, weekends off!

Pity they say that the flying bug is like the clap,once you have you can't get rid of it! otherwise there would be a major pilot shortage.

This thing about plumbers etc confuses me :confused:

What would you rather be doing ?
Driving about in traffic jams to get dirty, cold and p***** off with the customers ever demanding requests.....
or.............
Sitting on a nice warm flight deck and looking at blue skies ?

Having started life as a plumbers mate I can tell you there is no comparison. And if you want to earn anything like £40K + a year as a plumber you will be self employed and working all the hours you can muster and most weekends :{
PAYE plumbers earn around £21K..............
For those that haven't tried it, self employment can be a right pain in the **** (holiday pay ?? sick pay ???? what's that ????)
Next time you meet a plumber, either professionally or at the bar, ask him what he would prefer to be doing?
Most would swap places with you immediately.........

You can of course become a plumber if you want, I have yet to meet a pilot who has made the change. Most couldn't afford to take the drop in earnings. Then there is the subject of pensions, as a S/E plumber..............the lack of :{

Off for a Chinese now
DP

This topic is always an interesting one
 

I love flying, and to get to a point in ones profession where we are even on this board, I believe most are passionate about what they do for a living. This isn't to say that we are not disgruntled with the current state of the industry.

I know if I had to do something else for a living, and it certainly has been entertained, I would have to be just as passionate about that profession as I have been with FLYING.

I feel for the group as a whole, because we are definately getting the shaft, but what industry isn't today.

I have been unemployed almost as much as I have been employed, and in the long run probably would have made more doing almost anything else, just because the periods of unemployment would not have likely been as frequent.

Great experience, lousy profession.

I do believe the situation would improve if potential new pilots had a better idea of the salaries and working conditions before they joined the industry. Most seem to think they will earn £100,000+ for 3/4 days work a week. If they understood the reality with some companies paying £16,000, after you pay for your type rating, this might see a decrease of pilots coming into the industry which could force a rethink by employers.

The pay and conditions in aviation as a whole is reprehensible. I am not aircrew, could never be as I'm as blind as a bat, but have been involved in aviation since leaving school in the aircraft ops/airport side of the industry. To say that I am astonished at the appallingly low levels of pay would be an understatement and what really amazes me is the seemingly limitless numbers of willing candidates who are prepared to accept these conditions.

As long as there are people prepared to accept low levels of pay and questionable working conditions the industry will continue to operate in this manner.

guybrush

More like £18k to £22k for a new f/o.

There are always the, "My mate knows this bloke....... blah blah", stories, but they are the excepion rather than the rule.

Most new f/os have to do their time on the Turboprops unless they are ex-mil with a couple of thousand hours behind them.

The AVERAGE wage in UK is 21,200 pounds a year, the MINIMUM wage is soon to be 5 pounds an hour. Unfortunately all this blather about safety only hastens the end of the pilot as Ernest K Gann knew him....the more we bleat about how dangerous we are when we are tired/pissed off etc. only makes the manufacturers more eager to remove the component that, as they see it, causes more accidents than any other piece of equipment on the airframe....If you don't believe me, just take a look at how much control you REALLY have on the 380. Management can at least point to statistics about incidents/accidents, and prove their case to some extent....as opposed to whining and the refusal to 'get on ones bike'. Unless we are prepared to vote with our feet, or modify the seniority based systems we all work under, so an experienced pilot does not have to start as an 2nd O, (will vote for this?,) what we have got now will look like paradise in 10 years time..........:ouch:

After 27 years pursuing a dream, changing countries back and forth ( europe-america, lucky lucky me ) building hours with much sacrifice ( saw my son for approx. 6 weeks in a 2 year period )here I am at fifty wanting to make a change in my career and I find myself quite literally stuck in aviation. Yes, it is an addiction of nearly 11800 hours, years and years of being away from home,sometimes with companies that hardly care about aircraft maintenance, the only real pleasure found in the challenging aspects of flight...see winter ops, short runways in Greece in all the variety of weather scenarios...freight dogging throughout USA, Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean...to end up in Europe
flying left seat 737´s for a charter company that can barely hold its own...so, I can only agree with the opening letter of this thread that aviation aint what it used to be and most important IT WILL NEVER EVER BE THE SAME.
I often think about taking up long haul lorry driving, but I know Id last about 3 weeks before my flying monkey takes to my back...:uhoh:

My take on this is that you only get one life. You have to decide what is important to you.

I slogged my guts out for various companies, and had my share of companies going broke under me, companies that didn't pay me, others that "retrenched" and put me back on some little turboprop. Maybe I was unlucky; my last company was really good, but still suffered from the problems noted in the first post. I even found myself attending a disciplinary hearing because some 20-year-old crewing person blamed me to cover his own arse. Nothing came of it, but the point is that in days gone by, the integrity of a senior captain would not be questioned so easily.

Yes, the flying was great. However, the flying was only a small part of the job, and all the other crap I had to endure- from crappy crewing practices to tech aircraft to handlers that didn't speak english; from drunk pax and stroppy security staff and staff carparks cleverly engineered to be as far away as possible from the terminal; was so depressing that in the end the equation simply didn't make any sense.

I now work from home and fly for fun. I enjoy being with my family, who I didn't see much of in any of my flying jobs. I get to watch my sons grow up, I am master of my own company, and I live next to a beach.

Yes, the flying was fun. But having a life is whole lot more fun.

You only get one life.

How totally DEPRESSING is all this.
However guys, you do forget one thing.
We are in control of THEIR toys.
We can and should start upping the fuel we carry and bloody well up the burn too.
Fly with the gear down, fly low and fast, fly where it hurts them.
I already do, have been for a while and will carry on until I, the Captain is once again recognised for what I do.
Please don't the 'soft ones' amongst you come on here now to tell me about me burning the company's profits with my potential wage increase in the process.
I simply don't give a gallon!
Now here's that wonderful essay from America, written by a Connie captain a few years ago.
Let's adopt his attitude:

I AM AN ARMY OF ONE

I am an Army of One (or 2, or 300, ...)

I am an army of One - A Captain in the Continental Airlines army.
For years I was a loyal soldier in Gordon's army. Now I fight my own war.
I used to feel valued and respected. Now I know I am mere fodder.
They (CAL) used to exhibit labor leadership. Now they exploit legal loopholes.
They used to enjoy my maximum. Now they will suffer my minimum.
I am an army of One.

I used to save CAL a thousand pounds of fuel per leg; finding the best FL, getting direct routing, throttling back when on-time was made, skimping during ground ops, adjusting for winds, being smart and giving the company every effort I could conjure. Now, it's "burn baby, burn".
I used to call maintenance while airborne, so the part would be ready at the gate. Now, they'll find the write-up when they look in the book.
I used to try to fix problems in the system, now I sit and watch as the miscues pile up.
I used to fly sick. Now I use my sick days, on short notice, on the worst day of the month.
I am an army of One.

I used to start the APU at the last possible moment. Now my customers enjoy extreme comfort.
I used to let the price of fuel at out-stations affect my fuel orders. I still do.
I used to cover mistakes by operations. Now I watch them unfold.
I used to hustle to ensure an on-time arrival, to make us the best. Now I do it for the rampers and agents who need the bonus money....but this too may change.
I used to call dispatch for rerouting, to head off ground delays for bad weather. Now I collect overs, number 35 in line for takeoff.

I am on a new mission - to demonstrate that misguided leadership of indifference and disrespect has a cost. It's about character, not contracts. It's about leading by taking care of your people instead of leadership by bean counters (an oxymoron). With acts of omission, not commission, I am a one-man wrecking crew - an army of One. My mission used to be to make CAL rich. Now it's to make CAL pay.

When they furlough more pilots than the rest, pilots that cost them 60 cents on the dollar - I will make them pay.
When they under-staff bases and over-work reserves to keep pilots downgraded, down-flowed, or downtrodden - I will make them pay.
When over-booked customers are denied boarding system wide, while jets are parked in the desert - I will make them pay.
When they force pilots, who have waited 12 years to become captains, to be FOs again - I will make them pay.
When they ask CAL pilots to show leadership at Express, and then deny them longevity - I will make them pay.
When they recall F/As for the summer, just to furlough them again in the fall like migrant workers - I will make them pay.
When they constantly violate the letter and spirit of our contract - a contract that's a bargain by any measure, and force us to fight lengthy grievances - I will make them pay.

My negotiating committee speaks for me, but I act on my own. I am a walking nightmare to the bean counters that made me. Are you listening? This mercenary has a lot of years left with this company; how long can you afford to keep me bitter? I'm not looking for clauses in a contract, I'm looking for a culture of commitment and caring. When I see it, I'll be a soldier for CAL again. Until then, I am an Army of One...And I'm not alone!

Come on guys, this is an old tale. If YOU don't like what's happening, and you want it to change then YOU need to do something about it, as nobody else will!

Go for it!

Breaking away is (fortunately for the 'management'/beancounters) not so easy....if like MOR you can adopt a lifestyle that offers all you need then you are one of the fortunate few....for most it means turning up for work where you'll be surrounded by unprofessional clockwatchers talking about televison and football...they'll be incompetent but good at hiding it and pretty soon you'll ache to get back to the professional atmosphere of the cockpit....I know that I did....but I also chucked airline work and now love flying all over again.....

MungoP - "they'll be incompetent but good at hiding it and pretty soon you'll ache to get back to the professional atmosphere of the cockpit"
With that kind of nonsensical remark I bet you rose to very high office in civvy life and are just the best captain there ever was.

Thrush, I got my information from air school or airline websites.

And I agree with many of you that the pilots should do something (exactly what are the unions for??). You should at the very least ask for better and more comfortable life styles (more time to over come jet lag if needed, more days off if there are little days off etc). And could you do that soon and on an international scale? You see I MIGHT be a pilot in the future with virtually any airline willing to employ me. So could you all just revolt now so I could find better working conditions when I am employed?:D :cool:

I am studying engineering at the moment and I am told that starting salaries are in the region of about 20 to 22 thousand Pounds a year in the UK. I don't see much of a difference compared to Pilots' salaries. So why are you all complaining when you are earning just like other professionals? Were pilot salaries higher a decade or two ago? If so how high were they?

Cheers:ok:
guybrush

A good start to a brighter future might include the abandoning of the word "driver" when referring to yourselves.

I use to be in the aviation business, got disillussioned and left to become a train driver. I now drive freight trains 36.6K for a 35 hour week and no worries. Any hours over the contractual rate are paid as a bonus at Christmas averaging 15K after tax.

The futures bright, the futures Green.

Freightliner men are not from Mars. :D

Never going to happen. Please get real. The job has changed, along with the rest of the world and EVERY job that exists. Whether you are at the No.1 seniority spot in a main line carrier, or picking bean shoots in China, nothing is what it was or ever will be again.

If I was a boss and met this kind of narrow minded attitude, then it would irritate me significantly. Irrespective of what industry I was in. I did not like what was happening in my old line of work and have been moving steradily away from it for some years. The money is less but I knew that it would be, you could so the same. Start your own airline. Sheesh.

With the very deepest of respect, I have just finished re reading Ernest K. Gann's "fate is the Hunter", something I haven't read for thirty years. I would respectfully like to point out that times have changed since Mr. Gann flew. The technology has changed for the better since he wrote it, and with it I suspect the risk levels associated with professional flying although perhaps not for for the stuff that low time PPL clods like me fly.

There are two principles I wish to draw to your attention. the first is the risk/return equation which states that the higher the risk, the higher had better be the return if you wish to attract investment dollars. The second is the law of supply and demand that states that as prices offered rise, so does the available supply of goods or services.

I respectfully suggest that as flying is perceived to be less risky these days due to better technology, and the supply of eager young pilots who will work for peanuts, appears infinite, the bean counters will continue to degrade your perceived worth.

I suspect Mr. Gann was right when he suggested pilots earn their entire pay in two minutes per year, but I think many bean counters would think that your job is no more difficult or risky than their own.

Your own professionalism has lead them to this belief. I don't think you can legally or ethically demonstrate the dangers of your environment and the falseness of the beancounters position without scaring your passengers to death.