Those "bloody" slow 767's on international long-haul!
 

Yes, I know they are somewhat more fuel efficient, but hell, they bloody well should be, they cost us and countless others in the 747's heaps of fuel having to stay low, or having to slow down to something less than MRC, which causes AOA's to go to high and make us use more fuel.. .I've been doing the MiddleEast to SE Asia route a lot lately, and seem to 'run into' one on just about every flight!. .And you know that the Indian ATC will not do anything constructive to try and fix the problem, that's been the case for many years.. .I constantly hear multiple aircraft being slowed or not allowed to climb to use their most fuel efficient cruise altitude, because there is ONE 767 cruising at M.80, or, if they really speed up, to M.82, this is rubbish!. .We have to continually cart extra fuel to allow for these 'road-blocks', yet the offending 767 usually say to ATC that they need to stay 'in the way' because they need to maintain LRC to make their destination - what about us?. .This problem is not only confined to this route, of course, but with the Indian ATC 'system', it will continue to be a problem.. .The other day, we were at the holding point, prior to t/o, right behind a 767, going out on the same airway, and on the same route clearance as us, so we requested priority ahead for t/o, to get ahead, even though the 767 has a significantly better climb performance, because, in part, because we have to carry that extra fuel, and the ATC did not really understand what we were on about, thought we were just trying to simply 'get ahead' for the sake of it!. .As the old saying goes, it's hard to fly with the eagles when you have to deal with turkeys! (or something!). .comments?. .Cheers.

It's even worse to be stuck behind an Airbus!

What type ? Because the A330 does a pretty decent job. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />

Those Jumbos are soooooo big and ever so fast. Takes a special kind of pilot, if you know what I mean!

A340s!!

I agree, Joe Banana, everytime we saddle up our Citation-X we have to hit the breaks in the air to slow down from M.92 because of that big Boeing roadblocks ahead!

The B767 cant go much faster than M0.82. It is almost barber pole. So do you want them to fly on the overspeed?? If you know they are there allow for the lower level, and/or the lower speed, and carry extra fuel!! Oh, and GET A LIFE! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />

This is life! Someone is faster and someone is slower.. .For me .78 is normal so I'm irritated when stuck behind a 146. But that's the way it is. Sometimes you can get around it, other times you'll just have to live with it.. .. .Surely you can't suggest that everyone should get 747's? Maybe it's your aircraft that is too fast for the altitude you're flying at?. .Don't get me wrong, my company has 747 and I like them.. .What do you suggest we do about it?. .. .BTW, Stop calling me Shirly! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

Have a brake, have a Kit Kat!

The A340 might be slow, but when I flew it, the only thing we overtook (LH wise) was the 767.... .. .NoD

Hey Joe, has any one told you recently that the 744 is such a big aeroplane <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

I think a few of you missed the point.. .. .Would'nt it be nice if flights were planned so 76's & 74's could be assigned different flight levels throughout the route. The 74's can speed along at bat out of hell pace without caring the extra fuel to allow for other slower acft and 76's can dawdle along at their own pace taking in the scenery.. .. .Would'nt it be nice.......... .Not gonna happen though!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

And another level and later departure for the A340

Sure it would be nice but I presume that the 76' drivers want to stay at an optimum level as well...

Flight Detent,. .. .On behalf of the B767 community I offer our profound apologies for inconveniencing you so terribly. I only wish we could all fly the “BIG, FAST and HARD” wonderjet that you so eloquently describe – I bet the girls just love you. No need to buy a Porche I suppose ?. .. .As a matter of interest, I spent 2 hours stuck below your BIG BEAST least night waiting to get climb to FL410 because some lard arsed 747 was “too heavy” to climb above FL330 and the speed difference (us .82 him .85) did not give 10 minutes seperation in Indian airspace. Unlike you, I chose to sit back, relax and enjoy the flight – it’s not my fuel and at least the B767 can carry loads extra.. .. .Finally, on the subject of fuel – if you ever mature enough to get into the LHS you may well have to make some strategic fuel decisions. Until then I respectfully suggest you keep your THROBBING MONSTER stories for Tracey behind the bar in the Six Bells.. .. .Cheers, Eicas. (“Captain Eicas” to the likes of you.) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />

Just as well Concorde does not come into play here.

Why Not ? The Concorde is running short of fuel again and poor old FD is stuck in a holding pattern having another cup of coffee and making $3 a minute. Just shows us again how unfair life is. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

Good Heavens! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />

Before I go I thought I'd try a little experiment....... .. .Eff Oh states the B767 barbers pole is "close to .82". So here we go...... .. .The MMO of a B767 is .86. .. .Christ, Flight Detent definately has something here - my little member has just grown 2 whole inches. Thanks FD.. .. .Cheers, Eicas.

Isn't lifa fabulously simple? The overtaking aircraft has to give way.. .. .So what can you do?. .1) descent to a lower level. .2) climb to a higher level. .3) try to arrange a new route.. .. .The last option is certainly the best one. It gives you something to do on these long long loooong flights. Take out the charts, discuss all the options with the entire crew, write down the airway numbers, check the notams if these routes are open, decide on the best one and start bargaining with ATC.. .Have fun. .Sq

Maybe its not you, maybe its the rest of the herd.... .. .Sorry, that the rest of the world flies anything between 0.80 and 0.83 and gets into the way of the only true aircraft.. .. .Admit it: You are ca. 5ft tall, have a mustache and have your hat on ALL the time.

The worst is to get behind a Fokker 70/100 or a Dornier 328Jet - very slow and seem to create an enormous traffic jam in the Northeast USA.... .. .Those Dornier 328Jets (Dojos) are like mosquitos in the Northeast - they're everywhere........... .. .I think assigning slower aircraft to lower altitudes is smart. Overall, there should be an understanding among pilots flying the slower aircraft that they need to get out of the way - it's like driving in the States - slow traffic should stick to the right lane and let the faster traffic pass on the left. It's COMMON SENSE..... .. .Cheers

I will take a lower altitude, but I will not slow to less than: M.84 or 320 KIAS in cruise, because I don't like flying slow, "off the step" at high deck angle. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

Flight Detent. .. .Well, who made you king?. .. .In case you weren't aware, there are much faster A/C, and bigger A/C, for that matter, than your "big fast A/C". It's all relative, old boy.

The NATS system seems to work very well and accommodates aircraft of varying performance.. .Why not place a similar system over the area, say, between the western edge of the Kuala Lumpa FIR and the eastern edge of the Muscat FIR, (or the next radar controlled airspace for the more northerly routes). Dedicated east and westbound tracks would go a long way towards improving the current situation. . .. .Re-planning your route when airborne is not likely to meet with a lot of success in Indian airspace, IMHO.

Captain Eicas . .. .&lt;&lt;Eff Oh states the B767 barbers pole is "close to .82". So here we go...... .The MMO of a B767 is .86&gt;&gt;. .. .An FAA N- reg maybe... But our UK 767s (at least the Nigel ones) have a damn great red line at .82! Rumours BA (or whoever) "would not pay" for certifying beyond this.... .. .Our autothrottles are definitely programmed for .86, since they thing nothing of going straight past .82 and into the managers' interview if we are reading the paper a little too closely.... .. .NoD

Actually - I've even got the book out.... .. .For us Mmo = M0.84. .. .However, I'm sure the red needle is less than that..... .. .NoD

I want to fly a big fast aeroplane...erm like a big 747 wow i should be so lucky.. .. .You boring ball bag <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="redface.gif" />

I don't know about you speed demons out there, but you must be on salary or grossly overpaid.. .I get paid by the hour to push tin through the same airspace, let em' go up, let em' slow down/ go down, my kid needs new shoes.. .. .Just ease her back to LRC (no fuel loss or appreciable time loss in the classic) relax on that fat wallet and finish the bloody crossword.. .. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" />

Geez Detent, if they pi$$ you off so much, just quit and I'll be happy to take the job <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . And besides, it's a lot better than colliding into another a/c <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .

I only get to cruise at 0.8. From now on I think I will just stay on the ground untill all those really big planes have finished all their flying, wouldn't like to get in the way of the big boys <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

Meh thinks a succesfull wind-up is in progress <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

Tower Dog,. .. .I think you could right there - but since Flight Detent is a co - pilot with Air Atlanta he must have a large chip on his shoulder.After all he’s spending his nights flogging a knackered old 747-200 on Haj flights from Saudi to the jungles of SE Asia. You’ve probably heard him – he’s the one getting radar vectors from Muscat because he’s 20 miles off track at the FIR boundary. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> . .. .Flight Detent,. .. .Here's a question for you - What's a cheese board ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. .Cheers, Eicas.. . . . <small>[ 20 March 2002, 06:08: Message edited by: Captain Eicas ]</small>

Try and concentrate on more important matters - like the size of your willy, or is that proportional to the size of your mach no. Damn, so that's where I've been going wrong!

You guys should spare one for us on the 777 at .84 where stuck in the middle.

I think that this could well be a wind-up. I mean, assuming a cruise speed of .80 for a 767 and .855 for a 747 at FL 350 according to my rusty brain and quick mental maths you're only taking about a difference of about, what, 37mph!?!?!?

C.E.:. .. .A cheese board?. .. .Uh, that is a piece of wood ya use to cut and serve yer cheese?. .. .As for Mach number separation:. .Yup, been there as well. Hauled many old 747s between Jeddah and S.E. Asia.. .Don't think slower craft was that big of a problem: After all, one gets paid by the hour, one slows down, one negotiates a different routing, etc.. .. .Say hello to the sand-box. If I never see it again, that will be too soon. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

Friend of mine flies a gorgeous Global Express worldwide for a huge entertainment company and frequently encounters problems with slower 747-400s, 777s and A340s at altitude.. .. .Operating at altitudes of 430 and above he gleefully looks down and zooms past the bigger but slower traffic... He also earns $200K per year - not a bad job.... .. .It's the damn "put up with my slow aircraft" attitude that I HATE! If you are slow, be courteous and get out of the way if possible.... .. .Cheers

Excuse me if I refrain from writing abuse and insert a fact here but aren't there two parallel airways over Siberia, one for .83 or more and one for .83 or less? I believe they were instigated because of the speed differential between Airbus' and 747s.. .. .Is it also true that Richard Branson's last trans-world balloon attempt failed because he got stuck behind one of his A340s?. . . . <small>[ 20 March 2002, 17:04: Message edited by: M.Mouse ]</small>

I can only dream, stuck at .71 pre-apologies incase I get in the way in future. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" />