Virgin should abide by the seniority system if only out of loyalty towards those who have shown the same to the company.It shouldn't be a lottery as to what type we are rated on as to whether we keep our jobs.I'm sure there are plenty of staff within the group who are prepared to take unpaid leave just as they did when the Gulf war started.The company has plenty of money in reserve,this coupled with the mothballing of the classics and dumping the non profitable routes should more than compensate the losses they were suffering long before last weeks outrage.I know substantial savings can be made throughout the airline without resulting to any compulsory reduncies.
:confused:

[ 19 September 2001: Message edited by: fcom ]

How much more do we have to put up with from this fool who has to pontificate on anything to do with our business? The Guvnor is a Walter Mitty character who likes to hang out on the fringes of our business. He is a pilot groupie who pretends to be setting up an airline and gets easily led wannabes to support him because they have to grasp at any straws that may offer them the hope of a job.

This man is wanted by various organisations for debts and fraudulent attempts to raise money. Anyone with a connection to the Clydesdale Bank or American Express can find out about this mans background and those are just two companies that would dearly like to get him to sit down with them and explain why some of his attempts to raise money are apparently fraudulent. They may even pay a premium for an address on him.

The Guvnor has an opinion on everything to do with our business. I don't think so. He is good at using everyone elses opinions and then disguises them as his own version but he is nothing but a failed businessman who loves the sound of his own voice. He has absolutely no respect in this industry and apart from his own deluded belief that he has any importance does not deserve the effort of a response to his quotations.

Until he actually proves any of his qualifications, including the alleged degrees he makes claim to have then we should treat him as the pariah that he is and not dignify his pathetic existence with replies, one way or the other.

One of the latest attempts by this rogue to raise money was to set up a business where he was manging director and using his pre-adoptive name set himself up as company secretary, a highly illegal move. A lowlife that hangs around here and tries to pass himself off as someone we should listen to.

From this wannabee airline owner we now see how much regard he has for pilots with his grubby comments on backing the idea that the pilots have to lose their jobs when the aircraft are mothballed and any previous loyalty shown to a company for long service is not worth anything. A more digusting way to treat employees I have not seen and anyone who ever believed they would get a job from this low life had better take heed of these comments.

Considering a precedent was set in court after the ex Dan Air pilots took BA to court I would hope that the pilots at Virgin are not treated in such a callous way.

Hey, OzDude, I've told you before not to mince your words! Impressive stuff. His reply should be interesting. I bet 'Notso' feels a bit happier!

Maybe it is time for Cpt Prune and the gang to 'out' this man?

[ 19 September 2001: Message edited by: BOAC ]

Well said Ozdude, this obese cretin gets right on my t*ts too........time for PPrune to rid us of this Pr*ck for ever... :mad:

Its the same old story again.

Panic on routes over the pond, lets get rid of the more costly aircraft (Should have planned that earlier instead of getting more.), and those who operate them. (Great if your in the accounts department)
Are managers that stupid to lose many highly trained personnel, some of whom have been with the company since its early days and have chosen to stay on the Classic.
The answer I think is Yes because if it was not the Pilots, Engineers and Cabin Crew it would be those who through poor management decisions have helped place the company in its precarious position.
I know things have changed in the past week (My sympathies are a matter of record.)but there is an underlying problem that has been there for some time, and needed rectification long ago.

Last In and First out should apply, but only after other methods of voluntary severence have been explored.
To Chop a whole fleet without consideration to Seniority is an act of folly, usually initiated by persons who are not themselves at risk, and is a short term measure, without long term planning.
How much will it cost to send these crews on their way, surely there would be savings by the last in first out method, and the difference used to retrain the Classic fleet personnel.
Will the Classic fleet management be going too ???.

I am sorry for those who will lose their jobs, for whatever excuse the management use, but there are better ways to approach this problem, and better persons than I to negotiate a satisfactory outcome.

OzDude - not that it's any of your business, but I had a meeting with Clydesdale on Friday to brief them on plans following Tuesday's events. The senior people there also sought my opinion in the state of the industry both in the UK and elsewhere.

My company secretary is also the company's solicitor, and I therefore caution you strongly against making such libellous and unfounded allegations.

I take it that you're one of the '89ers that felt that the world owed them a living and then came over here to nick a Brit pilot's job since you were blacklisted in Oz - nice one! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I have huge sympathy for the people affected in these redundancies - but as I clearly stated in my original post on this thread, I was merely trying to explain the management line of thought in this context.

Obviously English Comprehension wasn't your strong suite at school, OzDude! :rolleyes: :D :rolleyes:

Why on earth would ANY bank want the opinion of a know nothing failure like you, Goober? If Oz dudes posting is libellous, why is it still on PPrune? Lets see you sue and leave yourself open to REAL cross examination of your so called career!!!! It seems from the Tripod posting that YOU have much more to fear in the courts than anyone on Pprune....

At least having an idiot like 'Guv' around makes the rest of us look good............

As a passenger I have little say, other than to chose who I fly with. I wish only the best for VS and to that end next week, I will spend £200 more to fly from MAN to LHR before going to JFK. Airmiles are one thing, but trying to ensure that the best FA's in the business dont start working in a gym is more important. But this is a brutal world, and VS need to trash those classics. If we had a crystal ball, then everyone would have 330s and 777s. Those classics are affecting the profitability of the company. And by that nature, the cres come with the plane. Some parts are interchangable, some arent or would cost to much. I wouold hope they could retrain some of the classic pilots, but you have to look at the cost of that and the time you will get from what I expect will be an older pilot. VS needs to make a decision for the whole company, if you come through this with a job, then count yourself lucky. Right now I am making myself the most visible person in the company, and killing myself with work and travel. i also now only fly Premium Economy as a choice, to save the company money, and I hope i will be rewarded, through the chance to continue working here in a job I love. - the fact that as a V50 is get upgraded regulary makes the decision a little easier.

Best of luck to all - and guviner I respect your opinion, just sick of reading it all over the board.

V50, thanks for your support of the airline, but please be a little careful when commenting on our internal affairs. Your post is based entirely on supposition and conjecture, and has no basis in (and not much resemblance to) the facts.
The Classics have higher direct operating costs than the 340s or 744s, but all but 2 are owned by the airline, not leased - thus no lease costs. They have no second-hand value at the moment, so there is little saved by parking them. However, that is the decision that has been made.
The crews are a cross-section of ages and backgrounds. There are many, like me, who have young families. We are not a part of the aeroplane, but part of the asset-base of the company. In all retrenchments in the industry so far, seniority has been the sole basis of selection for redundancy. Retraining costs are part of that calculation, and may be offset by voluntary pay reductions or other savings.
Watch all the other airline redundancies and see how many lay off people out of seniority order; I doubt you'll see any. Seniority is our only protection; unlike you corporate professionals, we can't leave one job for a better-paid, more senior position elsewhere. We always go back to the bottom of the career ladder if we change employers.

Guv, how about a few details of this company such as its name, web site or company number so I can make my own mind up about you.

Lads,
I must say I think that if the company has to make any compulsory redundancies, it has to be in reverse seniority; if it doesn't do this, then it is shooting itself in the foot, as I for one would not wish to spend my next 30 years in the company knowing that my seniority meant nothing and that I could be down the road at any time the company chooses if it doesn't like the type of aircraft I happen to fly.
We have to presereve the seniority system,
even if in my case it is a bit like Turkeys voting for Christmas. :cool:

Scroggs,

I respect and understand what you say about the classics, and no i dont have an informend view of the company, but I think it is safe to assume, that while there may be no lease payments to make on most of them, in its place will be capital repayment and maintenance charges. While seniority might be the way things are done, as opposed to corporate world, is it not right to think that people might oneday be promoted on merit, rather than time served. Your IFS, while not quite as important in the running of the plane, got there on Merit, not time. This would however require a change of global proportions not just in the airlines but the pilots. I wish that we could all keep our jobs and lives, but at then end of the day, we are dealt some bad cards, all we can hope is that we can adapt to change and make the best of it. Darwin documented the process rather well. Good luck in the future

V50
Don't spend an extra £200 flying down to London. There is a BA service direct to JFK from MAN, (or at least there was this morning)! It and all who fly in, work on, repair, service etc. Also need your support

Support your regions!!