Job losses at Virgin
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/bus...00/1549068.stm
Sympathies and best wishes to all those affected.

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/FarSgoof.gif
Pengineer

This might be a good time to revive the Jetset operation with the 320's across the pond.Looks like I chose the wrong week to quit smoking.

I understand that two D$ powered -200's will be returned to CX from the lease, haven't heard what CX will do with them tho'..... :(

To those that are interested...the estimated aggregate losses to US scheduled aircarriers is now approaching $140,000,000 per DAY, according to latest reports from Bloomberg Financial. Sh@t rolls downhill, do not expect Europe to be any better. Older guys have seen this before, younger ones will get a rapid education.

My deapest sympathy goes out to the guys who are nearing retirement.
This has happened to me twice before and in each case it is a very unpleasant experience, but at the end of the day those with experience and age on their side will get employment.
I hear the 200s will be leaving us initially with pos a couple of FEs remaining.
More flights to the East and Africa will help but I guess that wont be enough.
I also hear RB is asking the government for financial support today, that might help too.
Fingers crossed

What a real shame, I am genuinely sorry for you guys.
As a non commercial pilot, whenever I fly home to England from America (my new adopted home) I ALWAYS fly Virgin. I think it is a superb airline and deserves to be bigger than BA or any other UK airline. It is always fun flying with you guys.

Word has it that all the Classics will go, and that the Company wants to bin the crews with them.

Don't suppose the Union will be impressed with that idea, and demand last-in-first-out. Legal precedent was set with the demise of Danair, and the keeping of all the 737 type rated guys at the expense of those most senior. BA lost the court case in the end.

Hope it doesn't end up as severe as it sounds, guys. Sympathies....

Just a quick correction to sdac, BA didn't keep ALL the 737 crews. They kept 61 Captains and 59 First Officers ( if my memory serves me correctly ) who happened to be based at LGW and were flying the 300 and 400. All the 200 guys went even some very senior ones including some also rated on the 400. All the Newcastle and Manchester( 400 and 200 respectively )guys also lost their jobs. The very last on the seniority list kept a job. Not their fault but the point is that management think they can get away with anything they want in this kind of situation. It took a lot of effort by some very dedicated people to get some kind of recompense, I would rather have had a job!!My best wishes to all my woolly pully friends.

Virgin is looking to keep only those crews with a B744 or A340 rating, regardless of seniority. Please, folks, if you have an opinion on this, let BALPA know your feelings. There is a meeting between the BALPA Crew Committee (many of whom are new to the CC job!) and the Company on Friday. It would be encouraging for us all if you could put a word in to BALPA for us before then.

Scroggs,

Where does that scenario leave the A320 crews?

What a mess, sympathy to all affected.

Good luck to all on the classic fleet especially the FE's, I know what its like. I go back on Thursday to uncertainty, my initial contract finishes end of October, I will probably see you all at the "Office".
Thats all I want to say guys.
Fergi

northern boy,
I don't really know. I would expect that those who came from the A340 will be OK, as thing stand. Those who were recruited directly on to the A320, and who would need a conversion (rather than refresher) course are likely to be poorly placed.

This is the text of a mess age I have sent to Chris Darke at BALPA ( [email protected] ):

Christopher,
on return from route today, and in conversation with a senior management pilot, I discovered that Virgin Atlantic is likely to press for a redundancy based on type qualifications rather than seniority. While they may well offer early retirement, voluntary redundancy, and unpaid leave as alternatives to certain sections of the aircrew community, they seem determined that the closedown of the classic fleet will also involve the disposal of aircrew not rated on the A340 or B744, regardless of seniority.
I understood that seniority was always to be the basis of decisions such as command, leave, privileges and redundancy, and that is why I have supported the continuation of this principle. I understand, however, that Virgin are claiming that no seniority-based agreement exists between the Company and the Balpa Crew Committee, therefore they may do as they see fit.
I have no doubt you will grasp what effect such a redundancy will have on the trust between the airline and its crews; no aircrew of however good record will have any protection by seniority at all. This will not escape the attention of the other airlines if it is allowed to go through.
The memory of the Dan Air injustice when 60-odd 737 pilots were retained by BA out of seniority order has not been forgotten. I hope we can have your assurance thet you will not let such an injustice happen again.

I, and many others, would be grateful if other BALPA members would send their own thoughts to BALPA about this potential disaster.

Naturally it would be right and proper first of all to send heart-felt condolences and sympathy to all of those families and individuals across the world that have lost loved ones in the recent events. Their grief and concern is uppermost in most people's minds right now.

Secondly, I extend my sympathies and best wishes to all that have and will be affected as a consequence of these terrible events, not just in Virgin but numerous airlines around the world. It has to be said that few on this earth will not be affected in some way or other by these events.

Now, to the post in question; Whilst one would hope that certain principles are adopted in those cases where there are going to be redundancies and lay-offs, I fear that this will ultimately depend on whether there are agreements in force or not.

In case this is helpful, I previously worked for one of the major charter airlines in the UK that faced a redundancy situation some years back. There was an agreement in place that honoured the fundamental principle of seniority (i.e last in, first out). If memory serves me correct, the airline was looking for something like 32 redundancies. Prior to making compulsory redundancies, the airline first had to offer voluntary redundancies to the whole pilot force. To the credit of the airline concerned, those terms were quite attractive and a good number accepted the voluntary redundancy package. The consequence was that very few indeed faced compulsory redundancy and as things transpired in the end I believe all were offered their contracts back. A few Captains suffered demotion back to the right hand seat, and again there was a financial cushion extended to the very few that had a short demotion. All were very quickly upgraded again as the airline found replacement business for that which it had lost.

Ok, there was an agreement in place, which the airline honoured to the letter, but in fairness the airline went a lot further in softening the blow to those affected by the consequences of a customer cancelling a major contract.

The above is an example of a very fair and equitable way of dealing with a situation that is beyond the control of the airline itself. Having said that, the airline in question was financially sound at that time and they applied a certain moral code to the situation. I'm not inferring that Virgin or any other airline is financially weak, but who knows what effect the latest events have had on the bottom line. If it comes to it and they have their back against the wall, I'm afraid that any business will probably stick to their legal liability at best in order to ensure the survival of the company itself. If the business cannot survive, then everyone looses their jobs, regardless of seniority.

The world aviation community needs to adress the core issue here, which is customer confidence. The world goverments have a big part to play here. How do we instill confidence back in the travelling publics' mind that it is inherently safe to travel by air? Rather than bailing out those airlines that will not survive these events, we need to apply available resources to restore customer confidence. Whilst I will not stop travelling by air, I understand the mass reaction. If one studied the death statistics of travel by car or train or boat then no-one would leave home in the morning. The problem here is that the casualties have been focussed into 'one event', rather than consistent, continuing, daily events that one accepts as a way of life.

Let's all hope that the eneviatble consequences are contained and short-lived.

Thanks for the prompt reply Scroggs.

As one of those recruited directly onto the 320, I shall be looking for alternative employment ASAP.The only ray of light is that the minibus is at least a reasonable type rating to hawk around.

If Virgin go the route you suggest then they are storing themseves up a lot of problems when and if they decide to expand again in the future.

As a thought,the conversion from A320 to A340 is a 10 day course. Not much more than the refresher.Should the company go ahead with the delivery of the first two 340-600's, then courses will be available as part of the deal,ie at minimum cost to the company.These would be full conversion courses and so not required by those going back onto the 340 from the 320.

Heres hoping.

[ 18 September 2001: Message edited by: northern boy ]

Scroggs, best of luck with the current situation, but what you say is being mooted is exactly the situation we were given with Dan Air, seniority went out the window. But this time you have the precedent set, and BA were successfully sued for unfair dismissal. Albeit BALPA were not a lot of use to us as it was BA we were fighting, so maybe you will get a better response!! I hope for everybody's sake that things don't go down the tube. Good luck

Everyone,
thanks for your replies. BALPA are, I now discover, meeting with the airline tomorrow. I presume this is for BALPA to get a handle on the airline's point of view and problems, but any meet is an opportunity to put our point of view.
I would like to re-emphasise the point that if seniority is abandoned by Virgin in its decisions over the future shape of the airline, and BALPA goes along with it, no-one in any UK airline has any security whatsoever.
So if you agree that this is the wrong way to go about negotiations for the future, let BALPA know.
Remember, it could well be your job next.

I'm not involved with Virgin, but I understand the way that their management is thinking at present.

It's simple. They need to cut costs immendiately. This means the return of the B747 Classic fleet to GECAS.

It also, regrettably, means the loss of the jobs of the crews on those aircraft.

Why only those crews? Simple. They are trying to cut costs - so to lay off qualified -400 or A340 people in favour of Classic people who have been around longer would be financial lunacy at present - and that's not taking into account the length of time the conversion process takes.

We're in 1940, Battle of Britain mode at present, people - and if you want the company to survive then hopefully those affected will be men enough to realise that. I have no doubts that if VS makes it through, they will be rehired.

Sticking to outdated union rules such as "last in, first out" is something that we don't have the luxury of complying with at present.

seniority is in place for protection of all. last on first off must stand!! it is fundamental to the working environment. a few classic guys are off 400's and 340 (ie new captains) so where do they stand. the seniority system shows loyalty and the company must show its loyalty in return. no use telling a guy the company could go under as he to has debts, mortgage, family etc, so virgin must live up to its responsibility. the press would have a field day, as in all other business sectors, this is the fairest way to job security

Folks, ignore GUVNERD'S daft postings! It is the curse of pprune these days that we have a lot of people who want to create controversy. This idiot likes doing it here, and unfortunately he is enjoying doing it over 3000 postings here. Just ignore him! If you want to read about this failure of the human race, take a peek at: http://flytristar.tripod.com/article/art06.html
As if he can teach anybody about anything in aviation!

Notso Fantastic, stop trying to 7500 threads with your Nosto Clever posts and Everso Boring attacks.

thewwIIace - sounds fine in theory, but with every penny being of the essence to airlines right now, the hundreds of thousands of pounds that would be saved by doing things this way may (potentially) make the difference between survival ... or not.

In any case, as I understand it from other posts, VS does not have a seniority or 'LIFO' retrenchment structure in place as part of its agreement with BALPA - and therefore cannot be said to be "not living up to its responsibility"?

In any case, where does that responsibility lie - to the many whose jobs would also be at risk in the event of bankruptcy; or the few who, based on seniority, would be eligible to remain?

Virgin should abide by the seniority system if only out of loyalty towards those who have shown the same to the company.It shouldn't be a lottery as to what type we are rated on as to whether we keep our jobs.I'm sure there are plenty of staff within the group who are prepared to take unpaid leave just as they did when the Gulf war started.The company has plenty of money in reserve,this coupled with the mothballing of the classics and dumping the non profitable routes should more than compensate the losses they were suffering long before last weeks outrage.I know substantial savings can be made throughout the airline without resulting to any compulsory reduncies.
:confused:

[ 19 September 2001: Message edited by: fcom ]

How much more do we have to put up with from this fool who has to pontificate on anything to do with our business? The Guvnor is a Walter Mitty character who likes to hang out on the fringes of our business. He is a pilot groupie who pretends to be setting up an airline and gets easily led wannabes to support him because they have to grasp at any straws that may offer them the hope of a job.

This man is wanted by various organisations for debts and fraudulent attempts to raise money. Anyone with a connection to the Clydesdale Bank or American Express can find out about this mans background and those are just two companies that would dearly like to get him to sit down with them and explain why some of his attempts to raise money are apparently fraudulent. They may even pay a premium for an address on him.

The Guvnor has an opinion on everything to do with our business. I don't think so. He is good at using everyone elses opinions and then disguises them as his own version but he is nothing but a failed businessman who loves the sound of his own voice. He has absolutely no respect in this industry and apart from his own deluded belief that he has any importance does not deserve the effort of a response to his quotations.

Until he actually proves any of his qualifications, including the alleged degrees he makes claim to have then we should treat him as the pariah that he is and not dignify his pathetic existence with replies, one way or the other.

One of the latest attempts by this rogue to raise money was to set up a business where he was manging director and using his pre-adoptive name set himself up as company secretary, a highly illegal move. A lowlife that hangs around here and tries to pass himself off as someone we should listen to.

From this wannabee airline owner we now see how much regard he has for pilots with his grubby comments on backing the idea that the pilots have to lose their jobs when the aircraft are mothballed and any previous loyalty shown to a company for long service is not worth anything. A more digusting way to treat employees I have not seen and anyone who ever believed they would get a job from this low life had better take heed of these comments.

Considering a precedent was set in court after the ex Dan Air pilots took BA to court I would hope that the pilots at Virgin are not treated in such a callous way.

Hey, OzDude, I've told you before not to mince your words! Impressive stuff. His reply should be interesting. I bet 'Notso' feels a bit happier!

Maybe it is time for Cpt Prune and the gang to 'out' this man?

[ 19 September 2001: Message edited by: BOAC ]

Well said Ozdude, this obese cretin gets right on my t*ts too........time for PPrune to rid us of this Pr*ck for ever... :mad:

Its the same old story again.

Panic on routes over the pond, lets get rid of the more costly aircraft (Should have planned that earlier instead of getting more.), and those who operate them. (Great if your in the accounts department)
Are managers that stupid to lose many highly trained personnel, some of whom have been with the company since its early days and have chosen to stay on the Classic.
The answer I think is Yes because if it was not the Pilots, Engineers and Cabin Crew it would be those who through poor management decisions have helped place the company in its precarious position.
I know things have changed in the past week (My sympathies are a matter of record.)but there is an underlying problem that has been there for some time, and needed rectification long ago.

Last In and First out should apply, but only after other methods of voluntary severence have been explored.
To Chop a whole fleet without consideration to Seniority is an act of folly, usually initiated by persons who are not themselves at risk, and is a short term measure, without long term planning.
How much will it cost to send these crews on their way, surely there would be savings by the last in first out method, and the difference used to retrain the Classic fleet personnel.
Will the Classic fleet management be going too ???.

I am sorry for those who will lose their jobs, for whatever excuse the management use, but there are better ways to approach this problem, and better persons than I to negotiate a satisfactory outcome.

OzDude - not that it's any of your business, but I had a meeting with Clydesdale on Friday to brief them on plans following Tuesday's events. The senior people there also sought my opinion in the state of the industry both in the UK and elsewhere.

My company secretary is also the company's solicitor, and I therefore caution you strongly against making such libellous and unfounded allegations.

I take it that you're one of the '89ers that felt that the world owed them a living and then came over here to nick a Brit pilot's job since you were blacklisted in Oz - nice one! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I have huge sympathy for the people affected in these redundancies - but as I clearly stated in my original post on this thread, I was merely trying to explain the management line of thought in this context.

Obviously English Comprehension wasn't your strong suite at school, OzDude! :rolleyes: :D :rolleyes:

Why on earth would ANY bank want the opinion of a know nothing failure like you, Goober? If Oz dudes posting is libellous, why is it still on PPrune? Lets see you sue and leave yourself open to REAL cross examination of your so called career!!!! It seems from the Tripod posting that YOU have much more to fear in the courts than anyone on Pprune....

At least having an idiot like 'Guv' around makes the rest of us look good............

As a passenger I have little say, other than to chose who I fly with. I wish only the best for VS and to that end next week, I will spend £200 more to fly from MAN to LHR before going to JFK. Airmiles are one thing, but trying to ensure that the best FA's in the business dont start working in a gym is more important. But this is a brutal world, and VS need to trash those classics. If we had a crystal ball, then everyone would have 330s and 777s. Those classics are affecting the profitability of the company. And by that nature, the cres come with the plane. Some parts are interchangable, some arent or would cost to much. I wouold hope they could retrain some of the classic pilots, but you have to look at the cost of that and the time you will get from what I expect will be an older pilot. VS needs to make a decision for the whole company, if you come through this with a job, then count yourself lucky. Right now I am making myself the most visible person in the company, and killing myself with work and travel. i also now only fly Premium Economy as a choice, to save the company money, and I hope i will be rewarded, through the chance to continue working here in a job I love. - the fact that as a V50 is get upgraded regulary makes the decision a little easier.

Best of luck to all - and guviner I respect your opinion, just sick of reading it all over the board.

V50, thanks for your support of the airline, but please be a little careful when commenting on our internal affairs. Your post is based entirely on supposition and conjecture, and has no basis in (and not much resemblance to) the facts.
The Classics have higher direct operating costs than the 340s or 744s, but all but 2 are owned by the airline, not leased - thus no lease costs. They have no second-hand value at the moment, so there is little saved by parking them. However, that is the decision that has been made.
The crews are a cross-section of ages and backgrounds. There are many, like me, who have young families. We are not a part of the aeroplane, but part of the asset-base of the company. In all retrenchments in the industry so far, seniority has been the sole basis of selection for redundancy. Retraining costs are part of that calculation, and may be offset by voluntary pay reductions or other savings.
Watch all the other airline redundancies and see how many lay off people out of seniority order; I doubt you'll see any. Seniority is our only protection; unlike you corporate professionals, we can't leave one job for a better-paid, more senior position elsewhere. We always go back to the bottom of the career ladder if we change employers.

Guv, how about a few details of this company such as its name, web site or company number so I can make my own mind up about you.

Lads,
I must say I think that if the company has to make any compulsory redundancies, it has to be in reverse seniority; if it doesn't do this, then it is shooting itself in the foot, as I for one would not wish to spend my next 30 years in the company knowing that my seniority meant nothing and that I could be down the road at any time the company chooses if it doesn't like the type of aircraft I happen to fly.
We have to presereve the seniority system,
even if in my case it is a bit like Turkeys voting for Christmas. :cool:

Scroggs,

I respect and understand what you say about the classics, and no i dont have an informend view of the company, but I think it is safe to assume, that while there may be no lease payments to make on most of them, in its place will be capital repayment and maintenance charges. While seniority might be the way things are done, as opposed to corporate world, is it not right to think that people might oneday be promoted on merit, rather than time served. Your IFS, while not quite as important in the running of the plane, got there on Merit, not time. This would however require a change of global proportions not just in the airlines but the pilots. I wish that we could all keep our jobs and lives, but at then end of the day, we are dealt some bad cards, all we can hope is that we can adapt to change and make the best of it. Darwin documented the process rather well. Good luck in the future

V50
Don't spend an extra £200 flying down to London. There is a BA service direct to JFK from MAN, (or at least there was this morning)! It and all who fly in, work on, repair, service etc. Also need your support

Support your regions!!