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-   -   Job losses at Virgin (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/1392-job-losses-virgin.html)

Pengineer 17th Sep 2001 18:52

Job losses at Virgin
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/bus...00/1549068.stm
Sympathies and best wishes to all those affected.

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/FarSgoof.gif
Pengineer

fcom 17th Sep 2001 20:18

This might be a good time to revive the Jetset operation with the 320's across the pond.Looks like I chose the wrong week to quit smoking.

raitfaiter 17th Sep 2001 20:34

I understand that two D$ powered -200's will be returned to CX from the lease, haven't heard what CX will do with them tho'..... :(

411A 17th Sep 2001 22:56

To those that are interested...the estimated aggregate losses to US scheduled aircarriers is now approaching $140,000,000 per DAY, according to latest reports from Bloomberg Financial. Sh@t rolls downhill, do not expect Europe to be any better. Older guys have seen this before, younger ones will get a rapid education.

seymore butts 18th Sep 2001 09:30

My deapest sympathy goes out to the guys who are nearing retirement.
This has happened to me twice before and in each case it is a very unpleasant experience, but at the end of the day those with experience and age on their side will get employment.
I hear the 200s will be leaving us initially with pos a couple of FEs remaining.
More flights to the East and Africa will help but I guess that wont be enough.
I also hear RB is asking the government for financial support today, that might help too.
Fingers crossed

SevenFiftySeven. 18th Sep 2001 10:01

What a real shame, I am genuinely sorry for you guys.
As a non commercial pilot, whenever I fly home to England from America (my new adopted home) I ALWAYS fly Virgin. I think it is a superb airline and deserves to be bigger than BA or any other UK airline. It is always fun flying with you guys.

sdac 18th Sep 2001 20:26

Word has it that all the Classics will go, and that the Company wants to bin the crews with them.

Don't suppose the Union will be impressed with that idea, and demand last-in-first-out. Legal precedent was set with the demise of Danair, and the keeping of all the 737 type rated guys at the expense of those most senior. BA lost the court case in the end.

Hope it doesn't end up as severe as it sounds, guys. Sympathies....

kriskross 18th Sep 2001 20:55

Just a quick correction to sdac, BA didn't keep ALL the 737 crews. They kept 61 Captains and 59 First Officers ( if my memory serves me correctly ) who happened to be based at LGW and were flying the 300 and 400. All the 200 guys went even some very senior ones including some also rated on the 400. All the Newcastle and Manchester( 400 and 200 respectively )guys also lost their jobs. The very last on the seniority list kept a job. Not their fault but the point is that management think they can get away with anything they want in this kind of situation. It took a lot of effort by some very dedicated people to get some kind of recompense, I would rather have had a job!!My best wishes to all my woolly pully friends.

scroggs 18th Sep 2001 21:04

Virgin is looking to keep only those crews with a B744 or A340 rating, regardless of seniority. Please, folks, if you have an opinion on this, let BALPA know your feelings. There is a meeting between the BALPA Crew Committee (many of whom are new to the CC job!) and the Company on Friday. It would be encouraging for us all if you could put a word in to BALPA for us before then.

northern boy 18th Sep 2001 21:34

Scroggs,

Where does that scenario leave the A320 crews?

What a mess, sympathy to all affected.

fergineer 18th Sep 2001 22:01

Good luck to all on the classic fleet especially the FE's, I know what its like. I go back on Thursday to uncertainty, my initial contract finishes end of October, I will probably see you all at the "Office".
Thats all I want to say guys.
Fergi

scroggs 18th Sep 2001 22:02

northern boy,
I don't really know. I would expect that those who came from the A340 will be OK, as thing stand. Those who were recruited directly on to the A320, and who would need a conversion (rather than refresher) course are likely to be poorly placed.

This is the text of a mess age I have sent to Chris Darke at BALPA ( [email protected] ):

Christopher,
on return from route today, and in conversation with a senior management pilot, I discovered that Virgin Atlantic is likely to press for a redundancy based on type qualifications rather than seniority. While they may well offer early retirement, voluntary redundancy, and unpaid leave as alternatives to certain sections of the aircrew community, they seem determined that the closedown of the classic fleet will also involve the disposal of aircrew not rated on the A340 or B744, regardless of seniority.
I understood that seniority was always to be the basis of decisions such as command, leave, privileges and redundancy, and that is why I have supported the continuation of this principle. I understand, however, that Virgin are claiming that no seniority-based agreement exists between the Company and the Balpa Crew Committee, therefore they may do as they see fit.
I have no doubt you will grasp what effect such a redundancy will have on the trust between the airline and its crews; no aircrew of however good record will have any protection by seniority at all. This will not escape the attention of the other airlines if it is allowed to go through.
The memory of the Dan Air injustice when 60-odd 737 pilots were retained by BA out of seniority order has not been forgotten. I hope we can have your assurance thet you will not let such an injustice happen again.


I, and many others, would be grateful if other BALPA members would send their own thoughts to BALPA about this potential disaster.

Horatio 18th Sep 2001 22:52

Naturally it would be right and proper first of all to send heart-felt condolences and sympathy to all of those families and individuals across the world that have lost loved ones in the recent events. Their grief and concern is uppermost in most people's minds right now.

Secondly, I extend my sympathies and best wishes to all that have and will be affected as a consequence of these terrible events, not just in Virgin but numerous airlines around the world. It has to be said that few on this earth will not be affected in some way or other by these events.

Now, to the post in question; Whilst one would hope that certain principles are adopted in those cases where there are going to be redundancies and lay-offs, I fear that this will ultimately depend on whether there are agreements in force or not.

In case this is helpful, I previously worked for one of the major charter airlines in the UK that faced a redundancy situation some years back. There was an agreement in place that honoured the fundamental principle of seniority (i.e last in, first out). If memory serves me correct, the airline was looking for something like 32 redundancies. Prior to making compulsory redundancies, the airline first had to offer voluntary redundancies to the whole pilot force. To the credit of the airline concerned, those terms were quite attractive and a good number accepted the voluntary redundancy package. The consequence was that very few indeed faced compulsory redundancy and as things transpired in the end I believe all were offered their contracts back. A few Captains suffered demotion back to the right hand seat, and again there was a financial cushion extended to the very few that had a short demotion. All were very quickly upgraded again as the airline found replacement business for that which it had lost.

Ok, there was an agreement in place, which the airline honoured to the letter, but in fairness the airline went a lot further in softening the blow to those affected by the consequences of a customer cancelling a major contract.

The above is an example of a very fair and equitable way of dealing with a situation that is beyond the control of the airline itself. Having said that, the airline in question was financially sound at that time and they applied a certain moral code to the situation. I'm not inferring that Virgin or any other airline is financially weak, but who knows what effect the latest events have had on the bottom line. If it comes to it and they have their back against the wall, I'm afraid that any business will probably stick to their legal liability at best in order to ensure the survival of the company itself. If the business cannot survive, then everyone looses their jobs, regardless of seniority.

The world aviation community needs to adress the core issue here, which is customer confidence. The world goverments have a big part to play here. How do we instill confidence back in the travelling publics' mind that it is inherently safe to travel by air? Rather than bailing out those airlines that will not survive these events, we need to apply available resources to restore customer confidence. Whilst I will not stop travelling by air, I understand the mass reaction. If one studied the death statistics of travel by car or train or boat then no-one would leave home in the morning. The problem here is that the casualties have been focussed into 'one event', rather than consistent, continuing, daily events that one accepts as a way of life.

Let's all hope that the eneviatble consequences are contained and short-lived.

northern boy 18th Sep 2001 23:03

Thanks for the prompt reply Scroggs.

As one of those recruited directly onto the 320, I shall be looking for alternative employment ASAP.The only ray of light is that the minibus is at least a reasonable type rating to hawk around.

If Virgin go the route you suggest then they are storing themseves up a lot of problems when and if they decide to expand again in the future.

As a thought,the conversion from A320 to A340 is a 10 day course. Not much more than the refresher.Should the company go ahead with the delivery of the first two 340-600's, then courses will be available as part of the deal,ie at minimum cost to the company.These would be full conversion courses and so not required by those going back onto the 340 from the 320.

Heres hoping.

[ 18 September 2001: Message edited by: northern boy ]

kriskross 19th Sep 2001 00:18

Scroggs, best of luck with the current situation, but what you say is being mooted is exactly the situation we were given with Dan Air, seniority went out the window. But this time you have the precedent set, and BA were successfully sued for unfair dismissal. Albeit BALPA were not a lot of use to us as it was BA we were fighting, so maybe you will get a better response!! I hope for everybody's sake that things don't go down the tube. Good luck

scroggs 19th Sep 2001 01:37

Everyone,
thanks for your replies. BALPA are, I now discover, meeting with the airline tomorrow. I presume this is for BALPA to get a handle on the airline's point of view and problems, but any meet is an opportunity to put our point of view.
I would like to re-emphasise the point that if seniority is abandoned by Virgin in its decisions over the future shape of the airline, and BALPA goes along with it, no-one in any UK airline has any security whatsoever.
So if you agree that this is the wrong way to go about negotiations for the future, let BALPA know.
Remember, it could well be your job next.

The Guvnor 19th Sep 2001 13:45

I'm not involved with Virgin, but I understand the way that their management is thinking at present.

It's simple. They need to cut costs immendiately. This means the return of the B747 Classic fleet to GECAS.

It also, regrettably, means the loss of the jobs of the crews on those aircraft.

Why only those crews? Simple. They are trying to cut costs - so to lay off qualified -400 or A340 people in favour of Classic people who have been around longer would be financial lunacy at present - and that's not taking into account the length of time the conversion process takes.

We're in 1940, Battle of Britain mode at present, people - and if you want the company to survive then hopefully those affected will be men enough to realise that. I have no doubts that if VS makes it through, they will be rehired.

Sticking to outdated union rules such as "last in, first out" is something that we don't have the luxury of complying with at present.

thewwIIace 19th Sep 2001 15:34

seniority is in place for protection of all. last on first off must stand!! it is fundamental to the working environment. a few classic guys are off 400's and 340 (ie new captains) so where do they stand. the seniority system shows loyalty and the company must show its loyalty in return. no use telling a guy the company could go under as he to has debts, mortgage, family etc, so virgin must live up to its responsibility. the press would have a field day, as in all other business sectors, this is the fairest way to job security

Notso Fantastic 19th Sep 2001 16:04

Folks, ignore GUVNERD'S daft postings! It is the curse of pprune these days that we have a lot of people who want to create controversy. This idiot likes doing it here, and unfortunately he is enjoying doing it over 3000 postings here. Just ignore him! If you want to read about this failure of the human race, take a peek at: http://flytristar.tripod.com/article/art06.html
As if he can teach anybody about anything in aviation!

The Guvnor 19th Sep 2001 16:17

Notso Fantastic, stop trying to 7500 threads with your Nosto Clever posts and Everso Boring attacks.

thewwIIace - sounds fine in theory, but with every penny being of the essence to airlines right now, the hundreds of thousands of pounds that would be saved by doing things this way may (potentially) make the difference between survival ... or not.

In any case, as I understand it from other posts, VS does not have a seniority or 'LIFO' retrenchment structure in place as part of its agreement with BALPA - and therefore cannot be said to be "not living up to its responsibility"?

In any case, where does that responsibility lie - to the many whose jobs would also be at risk in the event of bankruptcy; or the few who, based on seniority, would be eligible to remain?


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