Americans add more petty and useless regulations.
 

The United States authorities are implementing a process which requires the passport and visa information of all crew likely to operate to, from or over the United States to be provided to them in a 'Master Crew List' (MCL) This information must not be changed within 48 hours of operating to the USA.

So - no crew operate from standby , no flexibility for the company.

How dare they .
Who the heck do they think they are?

On a similar vein....
I pray that we start treating American visitors to Europe with as much disdain as they show our tourists.
( My wife's sister and young lad queued for 120 min's to pass immigration - after a 9 hr flight) . Who needs that?

So if the Skipper goes sick a day before the flight gets cancelled, right?

Even the Yanks can't be that stupid!?

Like a bet? I used to support the USA , having been over there around 35 times but now I'm beginning to think a little deeper . From what I have read on these hallowed pages and in the press (!) and seen from Iraq , I wonder just what we are dealing with here .

IMHO visitors to the US are paying the price for the inability of the intelligence agencies to detect the 9/11 conspiracy in advance of the awful events of that day. Also, the TSA (Transportation Security Administration) is getting ever more powers, and now has the power of license suspension with the only right of appeal back to the TSA (according to AOPA US). Sad to see all this happening to a country I always used to enjoy visiting.

TSA? T*ssers, S*itheads and A*seholes. And that's just the management.

Every time I read the next ridiculous edict from the Land of the Free :yuk: :yuk: I just laugh and thank the lord that my remit no longer involves dealing with those ignorant idiots any more.

Do they REALLY think that there is a credible threat from the crew?

If you can, vote with your feet. Don't go there, don't spend your money there, perhaps (or perhaps not) they might get the message.

BTW, Shuttleworth, good call, though you can bet your life that they'll be the first to kick up. Recently had to go through the new(ish) security check to get the gate 9 at LHR T3 (x-ray and arch + search) from the lounge areas. Couple in front of me complaining LOUDLY that they shouldn't need to be subjected to another search as they'd already been searched before. Guess what nationality - yup, you've got it, our Pilgrim friends:hmm:

Hi Shuttleworth,

You imply that the MCL will be flight specific but you don’t state whether this is the case. It makes a big difference.

If not, then under the proposed system is it not possible just to add all flight crew to the MCL and as long as their Passport and Visa information does not change within 48 hours of operating in or over the US everything will be legal?

Cheers,
HaM

Life is just so unfair...

Please, stay home, you'd be much happier.

So basically, you are against providing of information in a timely manner to the American Authorities? I do not agree with the combining of Iraq, and the inablitiy for the CIA to detect 9/11 with a regulation regarding some advance notice of Who's flying the plane on a MCL. GROW UP!. Your supposed to be "professional's." Start acting like it. Calling Americans T*ssers, S*itheads and A*seholes and then spitting on the freedom that you take for granted day in and day out is sad. Very very sad. I would expect more from "proffessionals."

What can I say? I have just been back to the United States of America for the first time in three years and, despite all the horror stories, I found all of the staff (I asume they were employed by TSA) at IAD were very courteous and even had a big sense of humour.

Inbound formalities were at a minimum as far as time-wasting was concerned. It took less than 45 minutes to get from the aircraft to the hire-car.

from Kala

Actually that is way out of date. The threat of that was removed a couple of weeks ago.

Most of the tripe you read about America here on PPRUNE turns out to be untrue if you go and try it for yourself. But don't let facts get in the way of good old fashioned america bashing. Kinda reminds me of an Aesop's fable....


Cheers
Wino

"American bashing"

Are you suggesting sir that i am either vietnamese or iraqi . Both quite accomplished american bashers.:}

Maybe i should rname my little fella, "GeorgeBush" instead of the bishop.Then i would get double the fun, every bash

Ontariotech

I take it you don't have to go through US immigration. (The USofA is a country nearly entirely populated by immigrants anyway).

I think most of the problem is that US immigration is getting rediculous. My wife was coming to join me in Belize and they wouldn't let her catch her connecting flight in Miami because she had no return ticket! She was coming for 9 months from the UK to a commonweatlth country and not leaving the airport terminal - what business is it of the US government if she is using one way tickets since we didn't know my end of tour date (I was there with the British Army).

And lordy, try and get in on a Visa to learn to fly! I know that it is sensitive, but I was a British Army helicopter pilot, having spent time with US forces in Kosovo, Macedonia and Bosnia. was it really necessary to make me sit in a room for 2 hours while they phoned my flight school and asked if they had heard of me?:mad:

Was it Brazil who fingerprinted and photographed the US crew coming in, and look what response they got!

No-one is denying you your right to defend your borders, it just seems that every other country manages to do it without making you jump through hoops for hours.

(Sorry, I know that was slightly off the original topic)

Am I missing something?

I have to have a D Visa to operate into USA, so why do they need yet another layer of Bureaucracy? This paranoia in the US is really getting beyond sensible bounds.

I also think that in the interests of fairness the EU should insist on reciprocal Visa requirements for US Crewmembers who operate into Europe.

And, by the way, it is a sign of healthy democracy to criticise, without being accused of being anti-American.
:( :(

Too Bad...Maybe you'll just have to stay home and deal with over inflated prices, lousy food, lousy service, congested roads, tiny houses....but extremely "courteous and efficient" immigration and airport service personnel and just watch the miserable tv whilst moaning about how great it is you're not all in the US...Have fun!

Reminds me of the opening lines of the movie "Annie Hall" (1977):

There's an old joke. Uh, two elderly women are at a Catskills mountain resort, and one of 'em says: "Boy, the food at this place is really terrible." The other one says, "Yeah, I know, and such small portions."

Robkey:

Rather than just whining and showing the usual contempt for any place other than the US, why don't you actually try to justify these stupid rules that are being enforced in the "Land of the Free"?

If these restrictions were imposed on your own US airlines, I'm sure you'd have something to say about it.

>>If these restrictions were imposed on your own US airlines, I'm sure you'd have something to say about it.

Perhaps you don't fly much internationally, but in fact these restrictions are imposed on U.S. carriers. And yes we do moan and groan about it a little.

longbefore 9/11 I had to get visa's to operate in and out of France.

Just treating the EU as equal states.

Cheers
Wino

Wouldn't the airlines just put the backup/stand by pilots info on the list when they submit it to the authority? Otherwise the airline is getting completely screwed over this.

Ropey - not off topic - Very good posting.
The American's are causing such hatred it's astonishing.
This is here ... imagine what the feeling is in Karachi, Riyadh or Indonesia!

Rather than just whining and showing the usual contempt for any place other than the US, why don't you actually try to justify these stupid rules that are being enforced in the "Land of the Free"?

In light of world events brought about by People other than Americans, I can see a reaction to want to protect their own, If you want to com to the land of the free. Your gonna get checked out. If you don't like those rules. Don't go.

And if other countries want to impose their own, childlike, copycat, were doing it to spite the nose on our face regulations on aircrew and passangers, let them. Until something like sept. 11 happens to them, they will never understand how important it is to know who enters into the country, and for what reason.

Go easy on us Yanks!
 

First off be sure that story is accurate! They change directives so often it is hard to keep up!

Second off, think about what Homeland Security and their task, which is, well, just that. Several VERY high profile US events coming up, and with the picture in my mind's eye of people jumping out of those towers still very clear, I can understand the motivation behind their feelings. While TSA/Homeland Secruity appear autocratic, they also have ears and do listen to airline input.

There is a justifiable fear over rogue crewmembers, including flight attendants, taking over an aircraft.

One day, we will hopefully breath a sigh of relief, but for now the guard is way up.

As an American, living in the States, have to agree that Homeland Security and some other agencies are getting a little ridiculous with some of the regulations they are imposing. If they are so worried about immigration, the US goverment should really spend more time making our borders to the south much, much more difficult to get through and much tougher on the illigals that generally come through the south (though I do have several friends from Canada working here that are not strictly legal)...illigals from the south are becoming a major drain on US taxpayers (in California, the taxpayers even pay for illigals to go to school, and subsidise their welfare/health benefits, I think).

Anyway, back on topic, being an American and having lived in the UK for two years I can tell you it is much, much more difficult for an American to simply pick up and go to school or work in Europe than the other way around. Let's be fair here. It is a two way street.

The source of the US concern about who is on the flight deck presumably arises from the fact that now the cockpit has been turned into a fortress , where is a terrorist organisation now likely to place its hijacker? Not OUTSIDE the door for sure but INSIDE it. You can therefore understand why they are rather keen to know who is in there.

>>The American's are causing such hatred it's astonishing.
This is here ... imagine what the feeling is in Karachi, Riyadh or Indonesia!<<

The Brits aren't causing much of anything here in the U.S.

The usual Yank bashing thread on PPRuNe, ho hum...

For years the IRA were funded by Irish Americans and America did next to nothing to help us as our towns, cities and people were bombed. Now that they are the victims of terrorism mainly due to dodgy American foreign policy we are standing by them. I think the so-called special relationship is all one way.:yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

Poor FakePilot feels the pain. It seems like everytime I mention I enjoy MSFS people have to mention that is related to terrorism and ask me how many buildings I've crashed into. Many of my friends and loved ones are "eastern" in either origin or appearence (lots of people can't tell Hispanic from various "eastern") and I get to hear stories of discrimination. Yeah, 9/11 was bad and warrants action but it's not excuse to do whatever you want in the name of security. It really sucks that 9/11 has become the culturally defining force of the new millenium for Americans.

I use "eastern" in quotes because of I'm not sure of a term to indicate Asia, Middle East etc etc.

You may not like my viewpoint, but you're welcome to stay in my country. :)

Ontariotech says: "If you don't like those rules. Don't go."
 

...sounds like an all too familiar slogan from the 60s we've heard: America, Love It Or Leave It," eh?

That's the typical neoconservative Bush administration mentality; and one of the reasons why the Bushies will be voted out of office in November. :{

Sorry, but too many rabid xenophobes responding to the ill thought out comments of the original poster, Shuttleworth. Now, if we are to discuss the theme of the thread which is: Americans add more petty and useless regulations then perhaps it would have been much more sensible, mature and educated to have titled the thread: US authorities add more petty and useless regulations which removes the rather generic term 'Americans' which could just as easily be applied to our own UK authorities in regard to many matters relating to security.

Furthermore, had Shuttleworth made his post less confrontational to the 'Americans' as a whole, perhaps this thread would only have a few replies, remained on track and not excited the colonials into their own patriotic defense of the generic slander of their people. In other words, thanks a lot for starting a flame war thread which I need like a hole in the head. :*

If I may, I will edit Shuttleworths original post to remove the unnecessary slur on the American people as a whole and refine it into a post about simple bureaucratic excess by a government that could be US, UK or whatever your fancy. Then, let's get on debating the issue so that all the hysterical xenophobes can crawl back into their holes until the next poster makes the same stupid mistake and tries to start another flame war between the colonials and the failed empire! :rolleyes:

Please discuss: The bit about his sister is totally irrelevant and has been removed. he can of course post her experiences in the Passengers and SLF forum! :mad:

Next person to use this thread to air their xenophobic, political or cliched rant about anything other than the regulations regarding crew lists will be wasting their time and effort as I will simply delete it. :hmm:

Danny,

In the spirit of the original post, may I please comment that they really need to sit down and work out just who their mates are; before they find they don't have any left! :hmm:

G'day ;)

Ill conceived as they are Danny some of the posters do have a point. The overall perception amongst those of us in the industry that operate westbound is that the US authorities are unreasonably harsh. It still seems that much of what we see is window dressing designed to convince the US public that air travel is safe.

We all recall the farcical cancellation of certain flights bound for Washington.

If the resources available to Tom Ridge were directed appropriately I doubt there'd be as many complaints.

I don't like the whole american bashing theme that seems to go on here. But i think at the core people feel the same general things about it. I find it fair enough that you need a visa to operate in and out of a certain country. Let's face it some countries have much stricter requirements than the us authorities do. I used to live in the far east, and it was an absolute nightmare sometimes in certain countries (pm me if you're that curious to find out which ones).

But i do fel that the us authorities go OTT on a regular basis. Like someone else posted here, what if a crew member falls ill at very short notice, how is that person going to be replaced. I also feel that tit for tat rules are childish. But i feel most strongly that just because someting horrible (and it was HORRIBLE) happened in one country, that the stable doors should be slammed after the horse has fled.

I lost close friends in a certain terrorist attack on this side of the atlantic. So don't go preaching that we don't know how that feels. We've felt that pain ten times over over many many years. It is particularily painful when that attack was sponsored by supposedly rational businessmen and women who were 'looking out for the intrests' of third cousins ten times removed.

It's fair enough to look out for your own intrests first, but sometimes it is just so extreme that you just have to take the p*ss

When I go through US immigration, as a crewmember for a US carrier and also as SLF with a UK passport, I have been pulled to one side occasionally for a closer look. Just as I start to get all prickly about it I remember a certain Richard Reid who also had a UK passport along with a bomb in his shoe! If the guy that drove the Egyptian 76 into the drink had waited until post 9/11 would he have chosen another destination? Who knows, but Im sure the folks that rightly or wrongly make these policies look at these things and try to do whats best. Another aviation based attack anywhere and we will all be up a gum tree!

Would y'all care to know the facts of the new rule? Individual flight crew lists can be submitted one hour prior to departure. But that takes the fun out of this thread, doesn't it? From an ATA website:

Apparently, our European breathren are upset that they can't pull Joe Shmoe off the street and with one hour's training make him an employee of the airline and a captain.

Boy, regulations must be really lax over in Europe. Here in America it takes atleast 6 weeks or so to get someone on the line as a pilot. Amazing that they can do it in less than 48 hours.

With training standards like that we really should think of banning all European airlines from American skies. Can't possibly be safe.

Cheers
Wino

Well thanks to Huck posting the reg, we see it is both reasonable and well thought out, unlike the post that started the thread.

Shuttleworth, you owe everyone in America an apology for senseless America bashing, and all of pprune an the same for tying up bandwith.

Lets see if you are big enough to apologize. Of course that takes a bigger man than to post a senseless accusation.



BOHICA!

Wino. I trained in the States as a chopper pilot many years ago. Pilot licences in the States ARE easy. It's how you progress with them is the difference. 11,000 hrs later, I now fly left side stick instead of centre, no real change. We are all pilots, lets be reasonable with each other. There is protectionism on both sides.

With anti-discrimination laws and an increasing diversity of employees at outfits such as Big Airways, it would not be too difficult to have a mole or two amongst 40,000+ staff. This additional layer of security should have no impact on normal line operations at the sharp end! :ok:

Funny isn't, each time I go into an oil or military or VIP installation as a visiting engineer I have to apply for a pass in advance with pasport copies, pictures etc etc. All I'm doing is walking round with a pad taking notes, after being bodysearched.
A pilot is in charge of xx millions of aircraft and the lives of 300 people. It sounds reasonable enough to me. If it keeps people like that lunatic who crashed 990 out of the pilot's seat it's worth it.

LTNman--You're absolutely right. American's paid little attention to terrorism abroad prior to 9/11. That's over.

I've always felt it was inexcusable for Irish-Americans to support the IRA. They should have been prosecuted as terrorist collaborators.

Part of the reason for the over reaction by the Government agencies is the fact that if something happens on their watch, there will be an inquest and someone will pay for it--generally not the responsible party.:rolleyes:

Or, maybe the U.S. is just trying to bring our bureaucracy up to EU standards!:D TC