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-   -   The Arrogance Of Britannia 034A (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/132993-arrogance-britannia-034a.html)

one four sick 6th Jun 2004 08:42

The Arrogance Of Britannia 034A
 
Last night into ALC there was a Britannia 034A flight in the sequence to land.
We were ahead on an 18 miles final, an Iberia behind us and then the Britannia. When the controller asked him to slow down, his reaction was utter contempt and included a phrase such as "...if the Iberia could pedal faster" in a most unbelievably pompous manner. After this all his transmissions were accompanied by the most arrogant huff and heavy breathing of disapproval.
It was evident that he thought he should be able to make do without being controlled as he was incredibly morose and condescending.
The Iberia, like us was doing the published speeds on the approach plate, with inputs from the controller, this of course was most "inconvenient" to our friend as even when he got his landing clearance he sounded aloof and arrogant as he acknowledged it.
What a great shame he brought on other british operators, even on us LOCOs, we felt.
As it happens, luckily the controller didn't seem to have picked up on it, due to language limitations I guess. This however didn't stop US from feeling embarassed.
God only knows how his colleauge must have felt all day, having had to endure sitting next to this impossibly opinionated and immature, yet pompous hooray henry.
YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE.

Airbubba 6th Jun 2004 09:24

Yep, heard a similar one the other day in Tokyo's airspace. A Cathay whale was impatient to climb but was blocked and he got snippy about a Northwest plane (perhaps a 757) that was cruising Mach .78 in front of him. It was pretty choppy around Fuji headed southbound so maybe it was for turbulence. Or maybe it's just contract time again. Anyway, instead of asking directly, the Cathay pilot in a haughty imperial voice kept prodding the controller to find out why NW was cruising .78.

Northwest finally had enough and announced "listen buddy, if we want to cruise .78, we'll cruise .78". Cathay probably got a nice long view of a slow red tail well past Bulan...

Planter 6th Jun 2004 09:27

Correct me if I'm wrong but to me all Britannia crews sound the same.

Scarlet Pimpernel 6th Jun 2004 10:02

As at trainer it is quite frustrating to see young trainees harassed by those who think they own the airspace. It seems to be an increasing problem.

We are all trying to do the same job whatever company we work for. Surely we have enough problems generated elsewhere without creating more for ourselves.

The " I've been here a hundred times brigade " need to grow up and show more respect for their fellow aviators.

Formally Known As 6th Jun 2004 10:13

Who the **** made him king?

Thats typical of the majority of Britannia of course, all up themselves. Common courtesy seems to be thing of the past.

Just because one flys for Britannia doesn't make them special, in my book.

Taildragger67 6th Jun 2004 10:58

Slightly off-topic, but the Cathay/NW incident described above reminds of a story from the early days of the jet age. Apparently, a BOAC Comet IV was cruising at a FL somewhat higher than a (faster) PAA 707.

A rather snooty English voice enquired of the PAA 707: "what are you doing DOWN there?"

Quick as a flash, the American pilot responded "mach 0.83, buddy!"

Util BUS 6th Jun 2004 11:00

It seems rather unfair to judge a whole airline by one event. I don’t know what the background to the situation is, but it reminds me of another thread about how Iberia and other Spanish aircraft are cutting the que’s at Spanish airports.

For example, how many times have you had to slow down to 220 over Palma while the Binter ATR is given priority into IBZ? Maybe frustration got the better of him.

Formally Known As 6th Jun 2004 11:21

Harassing controllers in any way, does not enhance safety.

BOAC 6th Jun 2004 11:26

Off the east coast of Italy. early 90's, Nigel trying to climb:

"Brindisi, Speedbird bla-de-blah, could you tell us the callsign of the aircraft that is at our cruising level?"

one four sick 6th Jun 2004 11:53

Util BUS,

No one is "judging" the "entire" airline becaue of one tosser, that would be idiotic however, he was 3rd in the sequence, no one was put in in front and where he was at the time, the speed limit would have been imposed by the approach plate anyway.

The cases you are mentioning are very true indeed, but this one stands out sorely, as someone put it so well:
The sound of HAUGHTY IMPERIALISM!
I prefer the Spanish antics a hundred times over the example this highly disgusting individual.

Yes they all sound similar at BY as someone commented, but that's just the culture or.... the lack of it.

Orion Man 6th Jun 2004 12:28

Everyone here has undoubtedly been irritated by Spanish ATC whether in mainland Spain or the Canaries. They shamelessly look after their own and think that by conversing in Spanish that UK operators are none the wiser.

That said, the gentleman involved here if true has let our airline down and himself. We're not all like that at Britannia.

Dogma 6th Jun 2004 12:57

There is no room whatsoever for rudeness or arrogance in the air.

In the case of the Spanish ATC's relationship with Spanish operators; I find it unprofessional and rude in the extreme to be given an extra 10-15 miles of vectoring to fit in a Binter or Iberia from a higher level in front of us.

Though not an excuse for the ill-considered utterances of my college, I understand the sentiment.

99% of the guys at Britannia are courteous and professional airmen/airwomen 100% of the time.

Flying Scotsman, you are a little miss guided if you think that working for one of the best Airlines in the world involves just "flogging a 767 around Europe"

Thankfully, in my experience, courtesy in the air is still alive and well:ok:

Apologies to those offended the other night by my college.

NigelOnDraft 6th Jun 2004 12:59

OM...

As a Brits pilot, maybe you could call your Ops to call the Capt involved and suggest he might like to look here, or phone you and you can explain. He might have had a good reason, might have been taken out of context, and/or might like the right to reply.

After all, even if he is the complete t*sser made out here, it is all rather wasted if he is not made aware of the thread.

NoD

one four sick 6th Jun 2004 13:20

Nigel OD,

Spot on, as this was the desired goal of my posting in the first place.

one four sick

Dogma 6th Jun 2004 13:44

one four sick,

ZZzzzzzzzzzzz, Put it in writing to: Chief Pilot Britannia Airways, Luton LU2 9ND

Nigel OD, which RE RASH's did you come down in?

Would a Captain in B.A get a call about this kind of issue? I guess not, he/she certainly would not in Britannia.

Expeditedescent 6th Jun 2004 13:56

As a former controller of UK TC airspace I can only add my agreement to this topic.

Britannia Airways (Otherwise known as "Can we Airways" because of their incessant requests for direct/higher/lower etc etc) were the airline I disliked most while controlling.

There seemed to be a continual attitude that they were the only plane in the sky and we as ATC were a mere irritant to their progress through the clear blue skies.

I recall on one occasion I was working a heavy rush inbound at about 7:30 one morning, we had in excess of 20 minute delays at LHR, we were stack switching and my R/T frequency was saturated. All crews were demonstrating a high standard of R/T discipline and keeping readbacks to the minimum and we were just about winning. Until a Britannia outbound came along and after giving initial climb, he had to level off, at which point he began whinging for higher. After three calls from him I eventually and for the only time had to deliver a verbal tongue lashing because it was obvious the guy didn't have a clue about the situation going on around him. Not to mention his constant stepping on of other higher priority transmissions with "level at FLxxx, request higher".

It's not great to generalise in such a way but this was fairly typical of BY crews (not normally as bad as this), and I can tell you it does not endear yourselves to the coal face controllers who are actually there to keep you alive and try to help when possible, not to restrict climb/descent nor to deny direct to the centrefix for no good reason. Other airlines seem to play the game, BY at times not.
Again, let me be clear that I'm not tarnishing the whole airline, I have dealt with some fine BY crews, but instances of controller "harassment" do the rounds fairly quickly in the rest room and on the floor and anecdotal evidence and my experience is that BY is the worst offender by far.

Anyway having said this let me conclude by giving an example of the most unprofessional R/T transmission I ever heard............from an Airtours (At the time) crew.
I was listening in as a trainee and this AIH inbound had been bleating for descent all the way down looking for a straight in. The controller eventually had to level him at FL100 against outbound traffic at FL90. The pilot was whining and moaning and requesting lower at least three additional times, and when he was finally given descent his response was
"Well that's really useful now isn't it"

I nearly fell off my chair, unbelievable !

FlapsOne 6th Jun 2004 14:11


What a great shame he brought on other british operators, even on us LOCOs...........

...........even on us LOCOs.................huh????

blueloo 6th Jun 2004 14:21

I always find it hilarious when i hear some prat at BA making radios calls as "THE SpeedBird XXX"

Its amazing how much of a ****** with a carrot up his bum (never heard a her say it yet) they sound like, and its even funnier when all the other airlines in the vicinity all suddenly become THE so & so. It's quite amazing how quickly "The Speedbird XXX" suddenly returns to just plain old "Speedbird XXX".

METO power 6th Jun 2004 14:41

I always ask myself what’s the „speed“ for when I hear the call sign “speedbird”. ;)

NigelOnDraft 6th Jun 2004 14:49


Nigel OD, which RE RASH's did you come down in?
Haven't a clue what you're on about...


Would a Captain in B.A get a call about this kind of issue? I guess not, he/she certainly would not in Britannia
If a specific BA Flt was getting the slagging off here the BY Capt is, I would likely attempt to contact, or get a message to him. It might let him defend himself, and/or let them know he was dragging the crews' reputation through the mud (justified or not).

However, since a specific comment about a BY crew has been turned into the usual BA slagging off match, I'll bow out...

NoD

Airbus Girl 6th Jun 2004 15:09

Its much better if you are nice. Coming into a certain London airport one night and there were only 2 aircraft around - us and an unknown, ahead of us. We were slowed day way early, and just accepted what ATC were saying. Out of interest, we asked what the type was that was ahead (we were in a jet). ATC then told us it was a Shorts and explained that he didn't have enough room to get us in ahead, even though he knew we were the faster aircraft. I said this was no problem, and the Shorts guy then joined in the banter too, apologising and saying that they would pedal as fast as they could! No one got annoyed or stressed and we only landed a couple of minutes later than we would have done anyway.
You hear people hassling ATC alot on the radio, and you just hope that ATC don't help them when they are just being plain rude.

Dogma 6th Jun 2004 15:18

NoD

I agree, slagging match, darned awful thing envy.

RE RASH- Recent rain shower

Expeditedescent, London controllers or "Non standard R.T'ers" as we like to call them.

This is a generalization, not fair and not accurate, but occurs day in day out.

Please don't generalise, London ATCO's in the main are the best, inturn so are Britannia Pilots.

unwiseowl 6th Jun 2004 16:43

one four sick
 
Whilst I agree with the sentiment of what you say, don't you think it's a bit mean to identify this guy so specifically, whilst remaining anonymous yourself ? Management read this and they’ll know exactly who he is. Also, you don’t know what other stress he has in his life. Yes I know we shouldn’t bring it to work, but it happens. Personally, I find this kind of stuff fun to listen to!

Andu 6th Jun 2004 16:48

Have to agree with blueloo on the matter of the dreaded ‘thuh’.

The (not just Speedbird) ‘thuh’ grates with me too. If they could hear what utter tossers they sound to the rest of ‘mere us’, I’m sure they’d drop it poste haste.

Hate to say it on this hallowed day when we’re all thanking the Poms for saving democracy etc, (and I do, quite sincerely), but the offenders seem almost always to be a ‘certain type of Englishman’ who’d probably consider themselves of the errrr… ‘officer class’ – to judge by ‘thuh’ accents at least.

When I head someone saying it, I find myself saying “‘Thuh’ London, this is…”

Empty Cruise 6th Jun 2004 17:06

Had similar experience at a certain Scandi airport. There was a consistent favoring of a national lo-co carrier, which didn't really bother us all that much - delays were kept reasonably in check.

However, one morning, we were coming in from the north (landing from south to north). 20 NM N of said aerodrome, we were asked to reduce to 180 KIAS (ATR - but still...). Not a single other aircraft on the freq., neither on TCAS. When we passed 16 NM south of the airport, we finally got our bogie on TCAS - sure enough, the local lo-co coming from the south in a 737. We were subsequently turned onto a 20 NM final and asked to reduce further to 160 KIAS. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Now, instead of lashing out at the controller in question, we had a talk with our fleet mgr, and ended up having a civilised chat to APCH at the aerodrome in question. We took the opportunity to explain them something about the deceleration / tailwind potential of our aircraft and expressed our desire to play ball (i.s.o. being no. 4 after 3 helicopters and having a 25 NM final (has happened :yuk: )). After that - problems almost disappeared. Now they are happy to supply ammended missed approach instructions and turn us onto 7 NM final at 240 KIAS winds permitting. A lot more easy for us - we simply say what kind of final we are looking for when checking in, and they try to use our t/p flexibility as the "wild card". Sometimes it works out, other times it doesn't.

But they are trying - and that goes a long way! So talking calmly and in a respectful voice to the people you are dealing with does help. :ok: Being a major p*in in the a:mad:e will only serve to demonstrate your own lack of leadership & situational awareness.

Lets stay polite out there, eh?

Brgds,
Empty

Whipping Boy's SATCO 6th Jun 2004 17:51

AG, your story reminds me of a similar night-time scenario. I was apologising to an RAF VC10 (Aaaaaascot Blah) because I had to delay him behind a "Shed". Quick as a flash, the "Shed" came back with:

"I'm a TURBO Shed and I'm carrying your newspapers. Confirm reduce speed to 120?"

Dogma 6th Jun 2004 18:25

unwiseOwl,

Good point!

Fear ye not, no one gives a damn.

My final words on the subject are: Baah humbug you Spanish ATC:*

Ojuka 6th Jun 2004 18:33

I have been trying to thrash the "London it's THE WunderJet 123" out of my colleagues a thousand times without much success so perhaps if I show them this thread I may at last have some clout!

While we're on the subject of tw*ts how many of you Scottish controllers can be ars*d with Glasgow outbounds PERSISTENTLY, like a CONVEYER BELT asking ".......'morning, any chance of an early right turn?" (in crawling voice). It drives me up the wall just listening in especially when it is blatantly obvious the controller is saturated with calls and needs the SIDs to keep his picture together. Controllers: you can eradicate this menace by being a bit more abrupt with your answer !!!!

How popular a thread do you think we'd have entitled "The irritating things we hear on the wireless"?!

Avman 6th Jun 2004 21:41

But it is the Speedbird 123 which is calling, just as it could also be Delta's 456, as favoured by the Americans. I really do not undertstand what you are all fussing about. I have no problem with either.

le loup garou 6th Jun 2004 22:26

I feel that some people have misinterprated one four sick's original post.

The Brit A/C was not being asked to slow because of the Iberia ( and preferances for same nationality carriers, although I'm not saying that doesn't happen) but because of the backlog of aircaft caused by the published approach speeds.

This seems to me, a rather strange thing to get frustrated by. Surely airmanship and situational awareness would have made him understand why the preceding two aircraft were slowing. :confused:

Unfortunately it does open the door for generalisation but I don't believe this indicative of Brit pilots, the ones I know at least. Who are all very professional, courteous people, who aren't quite as impatient as their colleague.

Regards

le loup garou

caniplaywithmadness 6th Jun 2004 23:03

Ojuka,

Not wishing to rain on your parade, at busy times it actually helps Glasgow out when we're on 05 if the jets can go right due to the amount of slower traffic we have outbound to the highlands and islands.

The only time traffic will not get a right turn is because of a large amount of edinburghj outbounds which conflict with anything turning right at or befoore the GLG and departing into TMA airspace.


As a Glasgow Controller, I will try and get you the most expeditious route, especially when it means I can get that ATP or Saab out to the west 2 minutes behind you on a direct route.

I remember a particular incident a few weeks ago when a BAW shuttle asked for a right turn off 05 from the GLG, I co=ordinated with Scottish and got him GLG right turn direct MCT and then he changed his mind and said he needed to fly the SID due to being early???

I apprecitae that timings are paramount but why the hell ask for the early turn to save miles, increase my workload to get it for you and then change your mind????

PPRuNeUser0215 6th Jun 2004 23:17

Expeditedecent says

Britannia Airways (Otherwise known as "Can we Airways" because of their incessant requests for direct/higher/lower etc etc) were the airline I disliked most while controlling.
I am not sure what experience you have in flying through Foreign controlled airspaces but what I have notice as an ex regularly French airspace user is as follow.... Ask for a direct and in 80%of the cases they will give it to you. Don't ask and in 100% of the cases and you won't get it. Today, I fly for Britannia and I still use it. Sometimes It works, sometimes it doesn't but I never thought it as a rude request. As a matter of fact I have asked my partner (Maastricht Area Controller) and she doesn't seem to think it is a problem as long as it is requested in a nice manner and available.

As for those who believe that Britannia is a pompous airline all I can say is join them, meet the guy/gals and make your mind up. 2 seconds RT seem very short to make up a fair idea of anyone's personality. Plus, I would like to add that as a non British born pilot I have always felt comfortable and happy flying with this now long time serving Britannia "Nigels". As much as I would like to have their command of the English language, I doubt I would be able to raise the challenge... Which perhaps will suit those who are complaining about an apparent sounding arrogance request. Of course I doubt it will statisfy the ones who feel threatened by foreigners. Ho well, you can't win!

Back to Expeditedecent's comment.... you say, you remember once a Britannia blah blah.... Big deal! Surely with your vast experience you must also remember at least in one occasion when a BA,AF,LF,SR,AA,..... was rude to you. Why don't you tell us about it so we can too get a "fair" idea of what these guys are like.

T*ssers everywhere, that s for sure and Britannia is no the only factory making unit.

openfly 7th Jun 2004 06:57

For many years BY has, sadly, had a reputation for assuming that they were so much better than any other charter carrier, in all departments. As far as flight crew are concerned, I wonder if the arrogance that they constantly demonstrate is tied up with the fact that most of them are ex-RAF pilots and they feel that they are a cut above us lowly commercial trained guys. They may be right...after all, they brought 20 years experience of flying Chipmunks into the industry!!!

BEagle 7th Jun 2004 08:19

Ah - but ex-mil aren't always the same!

Having flown a '10 from somewhere in US/Canada to Turnhouse, dropped off the pax and freight, we were all set to push tits and head back to Brize except that we couldn't get a GAT ATC slot until after CDT would have expired. Get on GSM phone to military radar to arrange OAT "We're busy with an exercise and can't take you...." Told him that yes, he darn well would take us as a scheduled task takes priority over playing little war games. Still refused, so got airborne VFR thanks to the flexible and friendly folk at Turnhouse and set off south under a FIS. Came up on Jock Mil's UHF initial contact frequency and requested RIS, climb etc. Huffy controller eventually agreed. Shame that it wasn't quite good enough to have come all the way back VFR, otherwise I'd have flown us back underneath the airways enjoying the view....

Probably not something which "Thuh" birdseed or other people-tube operators would have been able to get away with for obvious reasons.

Being rude to ATC doesn't help. In my view, civil ATC are notably more 'civil' than some of the abrupt and aggressive military ATCOs - with whom it is often necessary to stand one's ground. The UK has a Gold Standard of ATC; it was always a delight to work them after coming back from certain directions to dear old Blighty!

one four sick 7th Jun 2004 08:58

Dogma,

You have to try to UNDERSTAND what the topic is ABOUT.


FapsOne

Agree, touché.


unwiseowl

Fair enough, but he may not do it again! What are you gonna gain by knowing who I am anyway? Who are you?


le loup garou

Spot on answer.


caniplaywithmadness

Damn, so it wasn't a BY this time.


AMEX

Just joining Britannia means a 13 page application form with questions like: What DRIVING OFFENCES have you had in the last 7 years, please give details.
Sorry, but that just about does it for me.


openfly

Possibly quite correct.

Dogma 7th Jun 2004 09:07

One four sick,

"UNDERSTAND the topic" What's to understand, you obviously have not read all my posts.

What is clear is your dislike of Britannia and BA.

As I said earlier, Chief Pilot, Britannia Airways Luton LU2 9ND

Openfly,

The number of ex-RAF pilots in Britannia is small. In the sixty’s and seventies perhaps, but today it's only about 10- 15% in total.

As for being the best, well! I would not say we are only a cut above charter, we are a cut above the lot:E

one four sick 7th Jun 2004 09:15

Dogma,

You are running a big risk of misunderstanding what people say.
I am NOT anti BY and have never even mentioned BA.
I have loads of friends in both, but the arrogance of this guy had to be heard on the RT.
You weren't there, so just relax and bear with us.
There is communication now behind the scenes about this, you don't need to give me the address, anyway, I don't do snailmail anymore!

one four sick

two speed prop 3 7th Jun 2004 09:26

One Four Sick:

"just joining Britannia means a 13 page application form with questions like......"

Ah, The real reason for your bitterness shows its ugly face. Never mind, give it 6 months and try again. Until then start practicing your arrogant Britannia RT voice.:p :p :p

Dogma 7th Jun 2004 09:30

"Communication behind the scenes"

Don't delude yourself! Unless you make a specific complaint in writing, snail mail or e-mail, I guarantee you absolutely nothing will come of this.

Though it does not excuse rudeness on the wireless, the blatant Spanish prioritising of their carriers make me want to be very rude. My comments would be far harsher than "peddle faster":}

josephshankes 7th Jun 2004 10:06

dogma

I am afraid your post sums it up.

Even if they had a 50 page application form they would still get a load of t*****s. Probably more.

openfly and beagle

Agree with your views. Military agression and arrogance has no place in civilian avaition


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