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Ryanair at it again!
Look what Michaels planning now!
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independe...&issue_id=5840 We should all try it, lets book a Ryanair ticket then 'unilaterally' deduct 50% of the cost and tell them theres a recession and they should be glad we're flying with them! If Ryanair is doing as well as he keeps saying they are he shouldn't need any favours. |
Can anyone explain this statement from MOL... Such a move, if imposed unilaterally across all Ryanair services in Ireland, could save the carrier up to £10m by 2003.
I have recently purchased tickets from Paris to Dublin, you can clearly see that Ryanair charge for each item separately, so while slashing the fees paid to Aer Rianta may save ME money, I cant see how it can save Ryanair £10m. Or am I missing something????? Mutt. :) PAYMENT DETAILS *****1,090.00 FRF Adults ********40.00 FRF Fees *******150.00 FRF Service Charges ********35.60 FRF Ins Levy/PSC *********0.00 FRF UK Air Duty *******102.00 FRF Government Tax *********0.00 FRF Airport Tax *********0.00 FRF Car rental *********0.00 FRF Insurance *****1,417.60 FRF Total Paid |
A recent applicant to Ryanair for an F/O position was charged a £50 cv processing fee.There would be a further £150 p/c charge if the applicant got that far and ultimately a £15,000 conversion charge.Then because the applicant held only a frozen ATPL his salary would be £11,000IR.He would recieve only 50% sector pay for the first two years and 75% sector pay for the next two.The contract offered would be for four years.It is thus easy to see how Micheal O'Leary intends to save money.Any pilot who holds this man up as a model for the future of aviation is a disgrace to his/her profession.
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So you didn't get the job then, Westman?? :D :D :D
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After that little lot maybe westman couldn't afford to take it.
[ 13 October 2001: Message edited by: mainfrog2 ] |
Guv*anke* talking of giving people jobs who's employing you at the moment? Why don't you do us all a favour and go to Afghanistan to do some voluntary work. Hopefully a stray missile will come your way.
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This sort of explains why the low cost airlines are doing quite well thank you and the majors aren`t. The flag carriers pay up the going airport fees...the low costs complain and in Stelios`s case grizzle when they have to pay the same as other carriers.
So if the the EasyJet`s, Ryanair`s in the world paid the same fees as the majors would you still be able to offer these fares of £1 etc...? |
Well, looks like MOL is finally getting the free hand he's waited for all this time.
So he's gonna chop the Aer Rianta fees unilaterally. That's just a 'taster' for what's in store. The lucky guys being offerred jobs at FR now have just had a unilateral (I love that word) 25% hike in the 'fee' for the type rating (they pay for it themselves). I don't refer to it as a 'bond' exactly...'cos thats exactly what it ain't! Just 'cos you fork out the £15,000 (up from the £12,000 he wanted before Sept 11th) is no guarentee you've got the job! If they like you they'll keep you. If not take a hike. So, not really a bond, eh? Fair enough. But I hadn't heard the one about the sector pay! Coooool! Nice one! Good ole MOL! When the decks are really cleared, and all those nasty dinosaur 'fat cat' carriers are gone...then MOL will really show you what he has in mind for the travelling public. And hey...if you don't like it, you know where to shove it. (Only problem is, you'll have two choices...FR, or the boat/train/greyhound/whatever). |
Don't see what you lot are complaining about. If you want to fly for Southwest Airlines, you have to have the rating - whether you pay for it yourself of have it courtesy of a previous employer doesn't matter - but no 737 rating; no interview.
Plus you pay an application fee and other charges related to the application process. They still have thousands applying to them - and Southwest is regarded as being one of the best employers in the US - so there's obviously a lot fewer whingers over in the States than there are here in Europe! Perhaps if all airlines took this approach, fewer of them would be in trouble right now. And finally, don't forget that FR pay their people exceptionally well - you just have to (quite properly) work bloody hard for it. |
Guvnor, where do you live-
oh I see, Darkest Africa... :p :p :p |
Brakes to Park,
I suggest you take some chill pills, you are up against the biggest wind up merchant of modern times. The Guvnor I know who you are. A BAGGAGE HANDLER at STN. Tomorrow I shall put a picture of yours on the forum! |
At Southwest...no 737 rating; no interview... And after paying up, maybe no job anyhow. How much does a 737 rating cost in the US? I can get one for $6,000!! A nice little earner for FR. They still have thousands applying to them ..and Southwest is regarded as being one of the best employers in the US so there's obviously a lot fewer whingers over in the States than there are here in Europe Perhaps if all airlines took this approach, fewer of them would be in trouble right now. And finally, don't forget that FR pay their people exceptionally well - you just have to (quite properly) work bloody hard for it. On thinking about it, it probably is your concept of an exceptionally well paid pilot. Which is just one more reason why I'll never work for you. Or M'OL. [ 14 October 2001: Message edited by: Idunno ] |
Idunno - you obviously didn't read westman's post carefully either: the person in question only has a frozen ATPL (therefore zip in the way of airline experience, especially on 737s).
I'm sure if you do your homework you'll find that anyone with plenty of experience - and the right ratings - will be on full whack and not be liable for any of the conversion costs (which shouldn't apply anyway!) I'm also reliably informed that if you come to FR with the proper ratings, there's no conversion course, so if you can get a JAA rating in the States for $6,000 then I suggest you get yourself signed up as an agent pronto! :D :D :D (PS: I claim my 10% commission!) (PPS: What's with the bunny stuff anyway?) |
Guvnor you don't need a JAA rating to work for Southwest. :confused: :rolleyes:
Oh I see...we're supposed to be discussing Ryanair! Fine, then stick to the subject and leave Southwest out of it...nice try at muddying the water anyhow. Westman referred to a frozen ATPL'er? So what! Ryanair has never had a two tier payscale before. You were either a Captain or an F/O, and you got paid as such. Now we're seeing new rates being invented for 'less experienced pilots'. My view is you can either do the job or you can't. If you can't then you aren't fit to sit in the seat. If you are, then you deserve to be paid the same rate as the next guy...especially if there is only one rate (i.e. no length of service scales). MOLs arrogance in unilaterally cutting the landing fees by 50% is disgraceful. What a chancer! If you parked your car downtown and then told the booth operator you're only giving him 50% of the charge when leaving...do you think you'd get very far? I hope they get some a/c seized and impounded. As to the 'Bunny stuff'...ever seen Conair? [ 14 October 2001: Message edited by: Idunno ] |
But I thought that the low cost airlines were all doing ok and that the majors were just whinging to get Government subsidies because they are big, unwieldy and inefficient (or at least that is the impression I got from listening to MOL and the fat orange one over the last few weeks)
Surely they dont want it both ways? That would be unfair...wouldn't it :rolleyes: [ 14 October 2001: Message edited by: Man-on-the-fence ] |
GUVNOR YOUR THE BIGGEST PLONKER ON PPRUNE AGAIN .GET OFF PILOTS BACKS AND TAKE YOUR PATHETIC COMMENTS ELSEWHERE.
YOUR COMMENTS ARE CHILDISH AND IDIOTIC AT A TIME WHEN PILOTS NEED SUPPORT. IF YOU EVER GET ON MY AIRCRAFT EXPECT TO BE OFFLOADED. :mad: |
Idunno - Southwest is very relevant to this discussion, as it's the Southwest business model that FR follow.
I do have to admit that you're right about MO'L being a bit of a chancer with the unilateral 50% cut of the airport charges - is this going to apply only at Aer Rianta airports (where the two of them get on like cat and dog at the best of times) or is it going to be everywhere? That said, you might like to compare a couple of rates I just happen to have to hand here for Cork and Manchester: Cork Landing fee per tonne: IEP4.04 (approx GBP3.20) Passenger facility charge (per pax): IEP 7.23 (approx GBP5.75) Manchester Landing fee per tonne: GBP7.99 Passenger facility charge (per pax): GBP4.20 So, a B737 with an MTOW of 55 tonnes and say 100 pax would cost GBP751 at ORK and GBP859 at MAN. I really can't see what he's got to gripe about with Aer Rianta! mjenkinsblackdog - ummm, I'm not quite sure why you think I'm 'on pilot's backs' on this particular matter - we're talking about airport charges and Ryanair copying Southwest! Do please let me know what and for whom you fly, so I can avoid that airline/type like the plague... :eek: :D :rolleyes: |
Guvnor when comparing Southwest and Ryanair I will accept that Ryanair base their business model on that of Southwest.
There the comparison ends, and all other comparisons are of zero relevance...such as what pilots earn in the respective companies, how much training costs, how many pilots want to work for them etc etc. So please stop comparing apples with oranges...you are usually the first to point out that European pilots have no basis on which to compare salaries and working conditions to US pilots and vice versa. MOLs chancerism doesn't end just with landing fees either. Have a look at their website under the 'News' section, where he moans to passengers about the unfair increase in insurance costs and after pledging to 'fight on behalf of the customers' then slaps them with a surcharge to pay for it! Of course he's entitled to do that...but it's the pathetic whinging and spin doctoring that is somewhat sick making. If O'Leary really has the best interests of 'the customer' at heart I suggest that he refuses to pay the insurers any increase, instead of attempting to extract it (on the double) from Aer Rianta and his customers. Of course he won't do that, because the Insurance companies aren't the pushovers that Aer Rianta are. MOL loves a soft target...as you've pointed out so clearly. |
mjenkinsblackdog, can you (would you) really off load people for your own personal reasons because of a post of this forum?
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Why don't all prospective applicants "unilaterally deduct" 50% of the conversion course cost, and offer to do their conversion course at that place that does it for $6000, I'm sure Mick would understand, hes a businessman after all.
http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/joker.gif |
Guv,
I'm a PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT HOPE IT HURTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
mike-hunt - and your point is...?
pengineer - good one... as I said, my understanding is that if you come in with the rating in place that's fine by FR - they just whack you if you don't have it. Anyone on here from FR that can confirm? |
Guvvie,
When will you go on leave, soon??? |
This is all so funny! wot we fighting about agian? :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
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Guvnor you will know when your walking down the steps .You have pissed off most pilots on here so stick to the trains. :mad:
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You're quite right 'big flight'...it's hard to keep track of a thread when the Guv gets going. He is a master of digression and diversion.
I guess he has to be since logic and reason desert him so quickly. The subject was FR making a unilateral reduction of 50% in the fees it will pay to Aer Rianta (and only Aer Rianta). Let's see if he can shut up or stick to the point. Either would give welcome relief. [ 14 October 2001: Message edited by: Idunno ] |
mjenkinsblackdog and Idunno take a look at yourselves you have been wound up so much by the Guv that you are now making yourselves look like a bunch of plonkers. And to think that you guys may be flying over my house..?
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DAS stick to coffee tasting and stay out of this discussion. :cool:
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Idunno, I don't think Mo'L has found Aer Rianta to be such a soft target. As I recall they took him for £500,000 last year over disputed Airport fees, half of which was costs and interest. His ongoing spat with Aer Rianta has little to do with money but everything to do with free publicity.I'ts a strategy he uses in all his business areas, and it is very successful.However what pees him off with Aer Rianta is that he is getting nowhere fast and the Irish minister it seems won't even talk to him .He also talks about getting the go ahead to open up new routes out of Ireland if only airport charges were lower. Two things about that . One, he doesen't need permission from anyone to start up routes, and two , I see that last week aer rianta announced a no charges deal for 3/4 years for any airline opening new routes out of Dub/Cork or Shannon airports.
So it looks like Aer Rianta are calling his bluff! |
Dear Das Pferd, what in god's name are you on about? :confused: If anyone was getting 'wound up' it was Guvnor attacking pilots (again) as whingers, as you might see by reading the thread again. I disassociate myself entirely with any comments about off-loading people (even the Guvnor).
If you don't mind we'll continue with the debate while you go off and swop insults with mjenkinsblackdog. :rolleyes: SgtCulpepper is right about the 'PR' aspect of O'Learys comments. Sometimes I think everything that MOL says is solely directed at winding up the media into another frenzy of excitement over the latest stunt. Free front page news can't hurt...who was it said that there's no such thing as bad publicity. Let's see if he really has the nerve to pull this 50% charges stunt...or if it's just another wind-up. |
Das Pferd - I don't think that Idunno is having a go or anything - the discussion was deviated somewhat by westjet and I was debating two different points. However, Idunno is quite right - the subject under discussion is FR and Aer Rianta.
I suspect, however, that mjenkinsblackdog may have rabies and might have to be put down :D :rolleyes: :D Back to the subject at hand... Yep, MO'L does use rather 'Bransonesque' PR tactics. Aer Rianta offer a deal to everyone - even FR - that instead of the charges I provided above they have a 100% discount (ie free) on landing and passenger charges on new routes. This offer was originally for three years; I understand it's been extended to four. However, the animosity between MO'L and Aer Rianta goes a lot deeper than just charges. They have been long time advocates of a second, non-Aer Rianta terminal at DUB and it looks like they have got their way. It's probable that this terminal will be a joint venture between FR and the McEvaddys. There are persistent rumours about Aer Rianta being cut lose from the government's apron strings, and if that happens, things could get rather interesting. Looking at things from Aer Rianta's perspective though, they really don't want the low cost carriers. Sure, they bring in lots of passengers - but as LTN has found with EZY, they end up costing the airport more than the revenue they bring in. In addition, having a low cost carrier on a route is a barrier to entry for a full service airline or a start-up - except of course for other low cost operators (eg the current dogfights going on between EZY, FR and GO). When I was at the Routes conference in Dublin a few weeks ago, a number of airports made it very clear that they would not welcome the likes of FR. FR - and its ilk - needs to grow at around 25% per annum to keep its investors happy - and of course the bigger it gets the bigger that 25% leap has to be. Finding viable new routes will be the biggest problem they face. [ 15 October 2001: Message edited by: The Guvnor ] |
are u a piloT? do u argue with everyone? :confused: :confused: :confused:
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I have been a long time observer of Pprune and being also in the industry I always learn alot from all the shared info and views here.
But the I feel the need to put in my 2 pence here on behalf of the 'Guv'. 'Hey Guv', thankx for all the info and updates you have passed on to us all here, please continue the good work. For all the others that continue to attack him, you all are very sad and need to grow up! I challenge the lot of you to come up with any of the info that the 'Guv' has been constantly suppling for our benifit,(even with the bashing of his name). He's a good sport! Can't say the same about some of you. He's well informed and up to date and is trying to share this knowledge with us and idiots like some try to prevent that! 'Have a nice day!' :) :) :) :) :) |
For what's it worth, I work for Ryanair. I am an FO.
I fly 900 hrs a year. I make about £3000. per month after tax. Pilots starting with Ryanair today as an FO will also fly 900 hrs a year. They will make about £1500. a month after tax. They will also have to pay for their car parking. And their uniform. And their type rating. And when they are told that they will have to move to a European base, they will have to pay for that move and accept a lower salary, ie less than £1500 per month. When time comes for a command, they will have to accept that there could be a high chance that they will not be getting the same salary as present Captains. They will still fly 900 hrs a year. I like flying for Ryanair. There is a great bunch of guys there and on the whole not too many whinge. We work hard and get paid very well for that work. But the new guys will work just as hard and not get paid very well. It's up to those who have the money to spend on a type rating to decide whether the cost is worth it. MOL is banking on Sept 11th to persuade pilots that it is. Is any job at any wage better than none? Some will say yes. And remember, Ryanair NO LONGER PAYS HIGH WAGES ANYMORE to those who are thinking of joining. It will be a low wage, low cost airline. That's how I see it. Let the criticisms come my way. Yes, I do get paid a lot. That was the incentive to fly 900 hrs a year. Is £1500 pm incentive enough for the new guys? It must be because they are applying. How much can you expect to earn once you've been in a while, say as a Captain. I can't answer that because there will be a take or leave it offer upon getting your command determined at the time by the appropriate market forces. I would like to stress I am saying it as it is to the best of my ability. I have done well out of Ryanair as have hundreds of others. But it is no longer a place for new guys, experienced or otherwise, to make oodles of money for loads of flying. There, that's my piece. I don't think I have been negative or positive. :p :p |
Slave, when I read Guv's posts re the area of the industry I know most about, his info is frequently wrong, therefore he is often ill informed and out of date. He does post some usefull discussion topics I'll agree, however he often follows it with inaccurate speculation which winds a lot of people up, myself included on occasion. For example regarding airport operations, stating some time ago that easyJet were having problems with their Liverpool base, however easyJet at that time, had just signed a 25 year deal with Peel Holdings re operating at Liverpool. He could not have been more wrong had he tried!.
I do recall on another discussion board he admitted to impersonating a female lawyer to prove his point. At that moment he lost all credibility as far as I'm concerned, I am probably not alone in that respect. |
I agree 'Jumpseater', some of his post are inaccurate.
But his overall contributions have been better than most here. I don't know where the hell he gets his info from or where he works etc, he can be an aviation wanna be or super spotter or whatever,,, It's just that I found that too many people were knocking the bloke for no reason now. Even like in this thread where his contributions were one of the most with PROPER and to the point infomation, while everyone was concerntrating on bashing him than trying to carry on an intelligent debate. This site 'PPRUNE' was set up for the avaition industry to have a common meeting place to share ideas, info, knowledge and RUMOUR! Lets keep it that way!! ;) 'Have a nice day' :) :) :) :) :) |
Tug has just made one of the most informative and important posts yet on this thread, but you guys are (yet again) distracted by The Guvnors antics. Ignore them.
I don't know who Tug is but as an FR pilot he's saying everything that I've been forecasting would happen is alrady occurring. Look, if you were gonna start an airline where you needed maximum turnover to survive...wouldn't you want the pilots kept happy and productive? Of course you would! So how do you achieve that? Pay 'em well, and use large incentive payments to extract the work. It's a formula that the Ryans were using long before MOL or Ryanair were ever heard of. But (and it's a big but) the day will eventually come when keeping the pilots happy doesn't need to cost so much any more...and where the incentive to work is provided by outside factors. (i.e. work or starve.) That day has arrived. So, our hero (well maybe yours...not mine) has decided he can extract an extra mile or two from the faithfull. Like it or lump it. You know where the door is...etc. I hope that reality is finally dawning on you all. MOLs only friend is the share price. I feel your pain. |
Idunno - now who's getting distracted? I thought this thread was supposed to be about FR and Aer Rianta! :D :rolleyes: :D
Seriously, though, this is precisely what I have been saying will happen for months now. Pay rates are going to come waaaaaaay down, across the board, for all carriers. MO'L is simply the vanguard - everyone else is watching him to see if he can make it work. And when - not if - he does, everyone else will jump on the bandwagon. If you don't like it - to quote yourself - you know where the door is. There are more than sufficient people out there who are happy to fly for the love of it to compensate for loss of those who only fly because its an overpaid job. Frankly, £1,500 nett for someone on the bottom of the ladder is not a bad whack at all - that would be a gross of over £2,000 per month. If the revised Captain's pay will be on a similar basis - ie 50% of what it is at present - then you're looking at a take-home of around £2,500 with a gross of around £4,000. If I was in MO'Ls shoes, I'd be playing around with the allowances so that the take-home is maximised without it affecting the amount being paid out by FR; and again I'd be doing what Southwest does - give everyone share options. Other than that, I reckon those figures are pretty fair - and realistic - all things considered. Hopefully, these cost cuts will enable our industry to stay aloft. [ 16 October 2001: Message edited by: The Guvnor ] |
Guvnor, not sure I fully agree with your analysis of the FR/Aer Rianta spat.A second terminal at Dublin will eventually be built many years down the line, but it will not be built by either FR or McEvaddy.Neither will it be a competing terminal.History shows that this formula does not work. As I said on other related threads, if competing terminals were such a great idea why dosen't every airport have one?
Ever heard of a duopoly.On your second point re EZY and LTN As far as i recall, Aer Rianta are fairly unique in that they run all or most of the shops etc . Pax are the life blood of any airport and the more of them the more oppertunitiy for shops bars etc to shake 'em down.I enjoy your posts and find them fairly accurate but I think you place too much credence on media stories.In my experience Media get it wrong at least 50% of the time. |
Sgt.Culpepper - I have to disagree with you re the second terminal; you only have to look at the way airports operate in the States (especially somewhere like New York) to see that competing terminals can and do work.
There's also no major difference in the way that Aer Rianta and say BAA work in terms of retailing: both own the main duty free shop, and both rent out space to third parties, forwhich they charge rent plus a concession fee (percentage of turnover). |
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