French Age 60 Rule
 

Has anyone out there managed to negotiate an exemption from the French Age 60 rule, or alternatively, does anyone know of someone else whose has managed to achieve such an exemption.

If so I'd appreciate any relevant info, in particular the DGAC address that I might write to to obtain such an exemption for myself. I imagine that the French equivalent of the UK CAA Flight Crew Licencing department would be the place, but I'm open to any (polite) suggestions.

Thanks in anticipation,

Packsonflite

:ok:

packsonflite French Age 60 Rule

You state you are from 30W!! Are you sure it is not cloud cuckoo land???

Surely you know the French brought this in to satisfy the Unions.

I would be surprised to hear they would consider individual exemptions.

Farnair Switzerland
 

You might want to call Farnair Switzerland and ask them how they did it; I know that they had an over-60-captain operating an ATR72 over France between BSL and CGN recently.

126.9

Many thanks for that, I'll see what I can find out.

thegypsy

30W is where the heart is but the UK is where the home is. I am aware that the rules was set to placate the unions, but the fact is I have information from the CAA that indicates that individuals can apply for exemptions.

I've heard that there are several European airlines that have pilots over age 60 operating over and into France.

But thanks for your comments anyway. Not sure where cloud cuckoo land is, what's the main airport?

Packs

:ok:

French Age 60 Rule
 

Does anyone know the real reason the French apply the 60 limit? Because people are living longer and are therefore having a negative financial effect as pensioners and also because the financial world is producing poorer investments there are obvious pressures for everyone to work longer. Presumably well paid French pilots would prefer to retire to generous pension schemes at 60 and this would be the union preference. But surely officialdom/Air France would have the opposite view? Could it be that French pilots enjoy some preferential tax treatment because they retire earlier than normal and so if they retire at a normal age they would lose that tax advantage?
JAR-FCL 1.060 shows Italy having the same exception to the age limit as France. Does anyone know if Italy will give individuals permission to continue past 60?
Thanks for any information

france 60
 

Does this apply to overfly as well as destination !

We all discovered how it applied to Destination when Crossair sent a 60 year old to france on his birthday - but how would the french know the age of an overflight crew member unless he had to land !!!!!!!!!!! Yes its a risk but....

As far as I'm aware, the rule applies to over flights as well.
Although I stand to be corrected if anyone has info to the contrary.

The reference is: Circular AIC A 21/00 AUG17 issued by the Direction Generale de l'Aviation Civile.

The English translation states: ' . . . in conformity with ICAO Annex 1 . . . acting as a commander on international air transport flights in French airspace is only authorised to those captains who are under the age of 60.'

Interestingly it specifically refers in the English and French versions to 'international' flights so one assumes that a French captain over 60 could command an internal public transport flight.

Europeans and JAR
 

This directive flies in the face of JAR rules and should be gone after by the JAR authorities soonest.

Because of it at least one company I know had to schedule its older UK based captains to fly to Scotland and Athens all the time, where as the Swiss branch had to chop you at 60, 'cos you don't go far from GVA without overflying France.

How French unions could benefit from foreign operators limiting its Captains to 60 I don't see. I am also sure that certain companies either don't know of this restriction or don't respect it.

As has been done to death on another thread, people age very differently from each other - some guys are out of shape by fifty and some are fit as fiddles at seventy these days. My opinion is that any pilot fulfilling the medical and skill requirements (which are pretty exacting) should be allowed to pursue his career.

And if you subscribe to a united Europe, you should accept all the rules (yeah - Euro as well).

This 60 year old rule was introduced by the unions when AIR FRANCE took over AIR INTER.

AIR FRANCE pilots had always retired at 60 but AIR INTER pilots not and the big deal was about seniority list.

By making it illegal to work above 60 the AIR FRANCE unions solved the problem the usual way, that is by depriving all the non AF pilots the right to work after 60.

Thank you AF pilots...

Differences
 

I'd like to point out that there is not a single JAA member state, that has not filed some or other difference in regulations or procedures to the JAR requirements. The French age 60 rule, the British licence format, the Dutch licence signing by local TRE's only, the Swiss issuing Swiss ATPL's, the Italian age 60 rule, and so it goes on...

As for Flying in France over age 60; some companies do, and some companies don't. Whether it is legal or not is irrelevant when it comes down to a matter of whether your company cares or not. Farnair Switzerland don't give a hoot and routinely put an over 60 captain on the BSL-CGN route flying over France.

Same rule applies over Italy also, not just france.

The sad fact of life is, if a Captain aged over 60 were flying in command over French Airspace and had to divert to land on French soil, that captain puts his licence at risk if discovered by the authorities to be in breach of this daft regulation.

Until the rule is changed, or unless inpossession of an exemption (if such things are possible), a company should not put a commander in that position, and a commander should not accept a duty that puts him in that position.

Continuing to operate over France in breach of the regulation is a risk - the potential repercussions of which must be weighed up very carefully.

<<Baron rouge>> Snoopy perchance??

If a diversion could end a pilot's career, then can such a regulation easily motivate a crew to divert to a very distant airport, which might not be best for airworthiness and pilot judgement?:E

Override

That's one of the reasons we're having the debate.

French are 'enforcing' no overflight for over 60s ergo limited chance of diverting to French airfied.

I doubt very much that, if legitimately flying in Northern Spain for example, but forced to divert into France, there would be a problem. They couldn't be that daft could they?

Italy permits overflight, and will accept diversion. They will not permit scheduled landings by commanders over 60.

Not sure exactly of the Portuguese position in all this.

It doesn't yet affect me but the whole over 60 issue is ridiculous.

If medically fit, and proficient to operate, what's the problem?

Been very encouraged by the response to my original post, but would like to state the original request which was whether anyone out there has the address of the DGAC equivalent of the CAAs Flight Crew Licensing section

Packsonflite

:ok:

Division Aptitudes Techniques des Personnels Navigants
Service de la Formation Aéronautique
et du ContrôleTechnique
Direction Générale de l’Aviation Civile
50, rue Henry-Farman
75720 Paris
CEDEX 15

Google..............DGAC.........address..25 seconds !

25" with google, but expect 25 month to get a positive response from the dgac.
If you want things to be done quickly, go and visit them and make your request with a 357 magnum.

.....& keep us informed!

Age 60 Rule!
 

First of all I would like to applaud the French for keeping the 60 rule. Too bad that this does not apply throughout the rest of Europe.

If I ever have to fly through French airspace or divert to a French airport with a captain over 60 I will jump on the radio and report to ATC. This to protect my license and myself. I hope each and every one of you keeps this in mind so that you will not end up in trouble.

Why do pilots continue to fly beyond 60? Well most arguments for this seem to be the financial situation. Looking back just a few years this was not an option. So for that reason I don't quite understand how this has become such a surprise to so many.
If you had been employed by a hamburger-chain, yes then I understand your financial reasons. But we are talking about pilots here right?

Many companies have a retirement plan to retire at 60. If pilots continue to struggle for a continuation beyond 60 they will also put the possibility to retire at 60 in jeopardy for everybody else.
Why don't people respect life and take time to do something meaningful like spending time with grandchildren, travel, go fishing or whatever you enjoy on your time off. Bottom line: Don't we all work for our spare time? What I am trying to say is that we are all given a very short time on this planet, and we should all try to get the most out of it if we are lucky enough to maintain a good health.

Many pilots also say that as long as you are medically fit you should be able to continue. Why do we not include mental fitness in this? Some maintain a great mental fitness for a much longer time than 60, but in general I think it's fair to say that mental fitness decreases with age.

There is a large group of young pilots out there with huge bankloans on education, house, car and families to provide for. Each time a pilot decides to continue beyond 60, each time a younger pilot gets robbed on his pension, better salary, captain upgrade and an unemployed has to stand aside. That's two pilots affected by one pilots egoistic behaviour.

Another aspect I don't understand is how you can continue working when you know that your younger colleagues want nothing else than for you to quit!

Respect your profession and respect your colleagues!

akada

"Respect your profession and respect your colleagues!"

re: your quote, perhaps you should take your own advice...

Age 60 rule
 

Tan!

You missed the whole point didn't you?

Or are you perhaps close to 60 or past?

akada

Hmm another "wind-up" artist. It must be a slow day at the flying club..

AKAD:
From what planet did you just land!!! Must be from somewhere in outer space?
I wonder if your views should also be applied to doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc. I know some young layers and doctors whom are also paying student loans, I suppose they should start to lobby and have their older ‘colleagues’ banned from exercising their professions?
:hmm:

First the French flyers are not getting any advantage by retiring at 60.
Secondly, the pensions of the french system are quite correct in regard of most of the other european ones; thanks to the Unions who have established this system just after second world war II.
Third, plenty of things to do for an old flyer grounded -for professional activities-, such as teaching the young generation, or do the things we have not gotten the time to do before.
Fourthly, solidarity between generation, it is an opening for the young pilots and the unemployed flyers, a lot of them with wife and from time to time kids, and waiting for a job with financial difficulties. Do you remember that it was not so easy when you were young? Do you remember that in those old times the general situation was better than now? have you notice the more difficult environment for a young guy than on your time?
Definitively, I am a strong supporter of the french system which authorises the oldests to benefit of free time at the autumn of their life and helps the young generation by flying sooner.

akada & malaysian eaglet
 

Two quite young gentlemen who have yet to discover most of what life is really all about.

Both of you talk as though entry into a 'system' or pension scheme or a national airline is the norm. Far from it. The majority of pilots don't progress via that system, you are the chosen few and you shouldn't forget it. The more general route through an aviation career can involve redundancy, cut backs and employment with several companies, going to the bottom of seniority systems from a previously held high position more than once, long periods unemployed and burning up what pension scheme and savings you may have been lucky enough to salvage from the liquidator, when was the last time either of you had to leave a job and join the dole queue?

And what makes you think that you are now getting it harder than we older pilots were at your age? Again, way off, after World War 2 their was an abundance of young pilots who, on reaching 55/60, wanted to carry on flying and did so, to the detriment of their younger colleagues at the time.
I am sure many of us would have loved to chuck it all in and go fishing, sailing, baby sitting or whatever, the sad facts were that we couldn't as there was not enough money in the pot.

Akada, just what are you talking about? "just a short time back flying beyond sixty was not an option", total nonsense. When I first got my ATPL the retirement age was SIXTY FIVE, that was the norm and that is what we are trying to regain, the NORM.
Oh yes, and we have all had a wife and kids to support and on a lot less money than either of you two get paid today and with no job security and little or no pension scheme.

You guys should really do your homework before you post on these forums which are for all professional pilots and not the minority such as yourselves.

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

My eyes are full of tears for all you guys approaching 60 or beyond. It's so sad to hear that your financial situation is, and has been so bad throughout your whole career.
WHO DO YOU THINK YOU'RE FOOLING??????????????????

The whole financial thing is just a sad excuse for you being afraid of getting old and loosing respect together with your four stripes.
If you want to continue flying, do so at the flying clubs and share your experience with becoming pilots instead.

Malaysian says that unions have established this system and he is correct. This system which you guys have fought so hard to develop. Should we just throw that out the window because of your egoism? Do you realise you are destroying all this for a lot of younger pilots? Perhaps you do, but you sure as h*** don't seem to bother about it when you elbow yourselves through the crowd.

It's about time that the rest of us who agree with the age 60-rule come forward and express ourselves. Until now we have just sat quiet, hearing your (excuse the expression) piss-poor excuses. I urge more people in favour of the age 60 rule to come forward and not let these whining men hang on to the rudder.

If you have no life outside Aviation and feel you must continue flying. At least show some dignity and request to downgrade yourselves into the right seat.

Gentlemen

Below is a link to a very good article on Internet "Trolls". Who they are, how they work and how to deal with them.

I recommend all regular users of these Forums read this... from time to time forums get infected with a "TROLL" as this thread apparently has.

Please visit: http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm

Cheers

Actually, I believe the age 60 retirement regulation was an American invention. It came into effect in the fifties when Pete Quesada was in charge of the FAA.

Let's revise your opinion on this when you are approaching 60 akada. I have heard your song so many times before and oh, how it changed when the singer saw his retirement looming!:rolleyes:

Pigboat is 100% correct. The age 60 rule was an all American invention.

The reasons that all airlines (well nearly all airlines) support the age 60 rule IS TO SAVE MONEY, bottom line!

And with nationally supported airlines it becomes a matter of politics (and economics).

To the young pilots on this thread crying about some poor old (?) captain staying past the age of 60 is going to keep you from advancing; wait until you get in the late 50 and see no reason to retire, except it will be forced on you for economical and political reasons.

Just wait!

(I really agreed with your point of view until I hit 50! Guess what THINGS CHANGE!)

(and to the person that said they would report any pilot over the age of 60 flying in French airspace to cover their ass
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: and the horse you rode in on

Sorry little boy!

Akada:
Dignity we should all have, respect is what some people seem to lack!:hmm:

Forgive the foray off track but met an 80yr old F27 captain in Leipzig a couple of years ago,german national on monthly medicals,operating within the federal border.At the time they were not JAA compliant don`t know situation now.

Forgive the foray off track but met an 80yr old F27 captain in Leipzig a couple of years ago affectionately known as "grandad". German national on monthly medicals operating within federal borders.At the time Germany was not JAA compliant don`t know present situation (believe under jaa sum of years of 2 pilot crew not to exceed 120) quick rant here afraid . . . if eu states can look after and protect their own crews at the expense of other eu states why the **** can`t the UK? ! !

Ooops well i`ve not been well

Well akada you are either a wind-up merchant or a pathetic little person who really doesn't understand what life may hold for you and you would appear to have serious misconceptions about your own fallibility too.

Very strong reactions from everybody! I think your frustrated answers again demonstrate your egoistic behaviour.

Pilots over 60 do not contribute to airsafety. CRM is automatically thrown out the window when your younger colleagues feel bad about your presence. Airlines are not an institution for your wellbeing. You people from the 40's have had it all served on silver trays. You grew up in the happy 50's and have seen the best of Aviation. Today we have layoffs all over the world thanks to terrorism and not to forget all the low fare airlines. You have seen the sweet days. It's time to let the younger generation continue before you destroy it all and force everyone to continue to 65.

I've been called a wind up artist and more by you people in this forum. All I'm trying to do is to knock some sense into your thick skulls. You are behaving like vultures.

No matter how much you scream, the only ones you're convincing you can't afford to retire are yourselves.

Wow! Pilots over 60 do not contribute to air safety. Such insight.

At what point approaching 60 does the contribution to air safety go out the window? Is it 23:55 on the eve of the 60th birthday? 23:59? Or is the slide into incompetence more prolonged?

Check out the following two links

http://www.airdisaster.com/eyewitness/ua811.shtml

http://www.corazon.com/811ori.pdf

The Captain on that flight was 59 and change - it was his second to last flight. He landed a grossly overwight 747, at night - that had sustained structural damage and had two engines out on the same side - off an overwater black hole approach.

How to put a sparkle in Akada's eyes? Shine a torch in his ear.

I was renewing my Class 1 this week (age 54) and discussing the age 60 limit with the doctor. His position is the likelihood of particularly heart attack/stroke rises steeply after age 60. So there is a reason for this rule although whether it is justifiable is another question.

Curiously I was reading 137 which is which is nowadays classed as 'prehypertensive' but he made no comment.

Why doesn't the risk increase sharply after 59 years and 3 months?

Amazing how an illness can know the birthday so accurately!!!!!!!