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Lufthansa Captain requests pax intervention...?

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Lufthansa Captain requests pax intervention...?

Old 20th Aug 2003, 07:40
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Lufthansa Captain requests pax intervention...?

On local (Los Angeles) news last evening was a tale of something that apparently happened last week -- no explanation for the late reporting. Apparently a Lufthansa captain en route LAX got on the p.a. to ask passengers for help because there was a "madman" trying to break into the cockpit.

According to an interview with a female passenger, who said it was very frightening because it initially appeared to be a hijacking scenario, a number of male passengers rushed up the aisles and tackled and restrained the man, who was turned over to the authorities when they landed LAX. He was a New Zealander, and gave a few different explanations of what he'd been trying to do, each crazier than the others.

I was surprised not to have seen this posted on pprune. Any Lufthansa people out there who know about this?
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Old 20th Aug 2003, 09:57
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A little more evidence that goes to show how a 9/11 style hijacking could not occur again, and correspondingly how stupid airport security is to focus on finding small & sharp objects... a threat that is now obsolete, for most intents and purposes. The results of 9/11 ensure that passenger docility will NOT occur in the face of any future attempted hijack. Ironic, but the reality is that the means of hijacking on that day became ineffective by it's use. PAX are now all too happy to pummel any terrorist, and in the meantime you'll have the pilots getting ready for any leftovers.
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Old 20th Aug 2003, 10:31
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Man arrested over flight behaviour
From correspondents in Los Angeles
August 16, 2003

A NEW Zealand man was arrested after he allegedly banged on the cockpit door during a Lufthansa flight from Munich to Los Angeles.

Bojan Pavkovic, 35, appeared in federal court yesterday but his hearing was rescheduled for Tuesday.

A federal complaint alleges that while Lufthansa Flight 452 was over northern Colorado on Thursday, Pavkovic began pounding on the cockpit door, claiming he needed to speak to the pilot.

He allegedly began screaming: "We all have to die."

The captain saw Pavkovic through the door's peephole and asked other passengers to subdue him, authorities said.

Several passengers restrained Pavkovic until he was handcuffed by the flight crew. A doctor sedated him with injections of Valium, FBI spokeswoman Laura Bosley said.

He was arrested by FBI agents when the plane landed at Los Angeles International Airport.

No one was injured.

Pavkovic later told authorities that his intention had been to get to the captain to tell him that he loved his wife, authorities alleged.

He also said he feared the pilot might not be in the cockpit and he might have to fly it himself, although he is not a pilot, according to an FBI statement.

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Old 20th Aug 2003, 17:34
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Reminds one of the scene in 'Airplane' where the pax all line up to 'calm' the hysterical woman.
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Old 20th Aug 2003, 17:58
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hmmmm so doctors are allowed to take sharp object on board...namely syringes, but I can't take scissors.

Can a doctor take scissors on board or just needles?

sorry...I'll keep schtum in future
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Old 20th Aug 2003, 18:19
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I imagine the aircraft's medical kit would contain syringes (and tranquilisers). My sis is a GP, but she doesn't fly with her "black bag".
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Old 20th Aug 2003, 18:36
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"A little more evidence that goes to show how a 9/11 style hijacking could not occur again"

Lucky the door was locked. Bear in mind few airlines (outside the US and UK) have a locked door policy. Fly on most european airlines and you'll still be able to get flight deck vist and jump seats.

A quick browse on airliners.net and you'll see evidence of that! Even people on jumpseats into the US- so dont be so sure it couldn't happen again.
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Old 20th Aug 2003, 20:34
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Medical equipment is stored in a special kit.Sometimes it is in
the cockpit or stored in a special cupboard.Is always locked
or sealed by special means so not easy accessible to pax.

I contains all kinds of equipment and may only be used by
qualified people. Syringes are also included in the kit.

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Old 21st Aug 2003, 00:03
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Exactly, excellent post the only people that are not aware of the new reality is the aviation authorities. The PIC probably has to worry more about the passengers not killing any intruders then anything else.

But the authorities are hell bent on destroying aviation with their insane security procedures so what can you say...
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Old 21st Aug 2003, 00:32
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It all makes me laugh ! It's simple enough, is'nt it ?

A "rugby team" of a couple of dozen hefty six-footers board a plane completely clean of even a paper clip for a weapon.

Two dozen six footers don't need weapons, just a common purpose ---- to hi-jack an airliner.

Game, set & match.
Old 21st Aug 2003, 06:46
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Interesting to see what sort of sentance this chap gets.....hopefully in the order of 10 to 20 in an east LA facility. Thankfully this one did not happen enroute to Australia where he would be roaming the streets now looking forward to a 1 month non parole suspended good behaviour.....
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Old 21st Aug 2003, 08:16
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go_edw. ALL airliners inbound to the USA now require the locked and anti ballistic door. Qantas recently flew an aircraft to the US to park it for good and even that aircraft required the door.

Similarly with jump seat riders, they are still allowed for company 'crew' under VERY strict circumstances. My Dad wouldn't be able to jump seat on my aeroplane to or from the USA.

As for what happens in Europe, I wouldn't know but I'd be dissappointed if their doors were still unlocked.
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Old 21st Aug 2003, 12:57
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Anthony C , if the rugby team six footers cannot get access to the flight deck, ( armoured door), then I doubt that they are going to be able to hijack the aircraft.
One of the things that 9/11 did was redefine the value of the passenger load vis a vis say, the World Trade center, or what have you, and since that event I would venture to say that they, (pax load), are considered expendable. The fact that the USAF is ready to be used to prevent a repeat of the WTC destruction would seem to bear that out.
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Old 21st Aug 2003, 13:48
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innuendo (I still remember you from my dim past)

.........if the rugby team six footers cannot get access to the flight deck, ( armoured door),.....
My mistake, but an understandable one though -- some flight deck doors are of thin particle board with a plastic slider for a lock and a bottom half designed to be kicked out in an emergency. (medium twin-jet, 100 plus passenger seats, major UK airline, RIGHT NOW).

They still go through the full blown "lock-the-door" performances, albeit having to remove headset, slide seat back, unfasten seatbelt, get out of the seat and go to the door to look through limited-angle-of-view spy hole, lock/unlock it.......get back in seat, fasten seatbelt, slide seat forward, put on headset............and the ask the 400 hour, hastily recruited and trained co-pilot if they really were cleared to descend whilst this was going on.

A team of tiddlewinks players with a major injuries problem might hold real fear for those crews, never mind the rugby lot. All of this nearly two years after 9/11.

How the other half live - armoured doors and all. (Realistic world and all !!!)


So there we have it. Two dozen rugby players locked out of the armoured flight deck with innuendo snugly(sp?) safe on the other side. Not a paper clip for a weapon as I said in my previous post. But, by virtue of overwhelming physical advantage, they have control of the cabin and all of the items kept therein. We may have to assume that they're suicidal type terrorists for this one.

Any ideas, anyone ?

You sir ?.......yes, you at the back..the dark skinned chap, with the beard and unusual headwear......do you have some ideas ?
Old 21st Aug 2003, 18:41
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My understanding is that all UK carriers must have phase 1 doors fitted by now,and all to be converted to phase2 within the next 12-18 months?

I would have thought most other European carriers would have followed suit?

It seems evident Lufthansa have from this incident.
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Old 21st Aug 2003, 22:01
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Anthony, while you might be right in theory that a large enough group of burly terrorists could overwhelm a small enough group of pax, in practise there is another factor at work to consider (other than the door barrier). 9/11 didn't happen just because of a passive pax response, it also happened because of poor intelligence at several levels. Passenger lists are now much more dilligently screened, analyzed, and cross-referenced against intelligence data and/or known risk factors. Cash purchases, last-minute purchases, one-way ticket purchases (and combinations) now raise eyebrows. Therefore, as a terrorist group attempts to increase it's numbers in boarding a plane, it also increases it's risk that one of them will be red-flagged. Numbers work AGAINST them, not FOR them. I really don't think you're going to find a large terrorist sleeper-cell of squeaky-clean individuals without backgrounds. Remember, even in the days pre-9/11, when intelligence was clearly lacking, there still WAS data on most of the guys involved in that plot.... it just went unused.

I agree with Tan... there is a 'new reality' of aviation security, that aviation authorities don't seem to grasp. Really, the best counter-terrorism device is imagination. Finding ways to counter what the real threat (in other words the NEXT threat) is. It boggles me that aviation security can't understand this, and be a little more proactive.

I have my theory on this mentality. I think security and military types, police even to a certain degree, share a lot of common thinking. One trait is a sort of self-righteousness in their actions, that prevents them from ever changing course or trying new ideas. The psychology is that if they ever changed something, it'd be like admitting to themselves & others that they've been wrong, which would undermine their status as ultimate authority. Power not only 'corrupts, absolutely', it also 'corrupts the mind, absolutely'. It does a lot to destroy creativity and the ability to self-critique.

You see symptoms of this thinking in the militism seen in things like the Palistinian-Israeli conflict... where after dozens of years of conflict, they STILL believe that if force/violence doesn't work, the solution must be just MORE force/violence. Or in the U.S. "war on drugs" where for decades of the same style of drug-raids, drug laws, enforcement methods, the only answer they have to none of them working is to have MORE of these same things.

The psychology of this self-importance naturally leads mililtary/police types to always choosing the solution that increases their role, their financing, their job security. It can become an unstoppable animal. For every terrorist act that will now ever occur, the military can just say "We need MORE military spending to stop this!!"

But back to the point, now you have aviation security thinking because some small sharp knives were used by one group of terrorist on one day.... the solution for the future must be ... find all small, sharp objects! No nail-clippers allowed! Brilliant! Or you have the U.S. military thinking " we couldn't shoot down those planes" so the solution: fighters in the air non-stop, we'll definitely get them next time! Thing is, there WON'T be a next time the same way that it happened LAST time! Just think of how those military bucks could have been spent.

Not only are things like knives ineffective in the new reality, but regardless, tests of aviation security show that at ALL airports, security scanners let through most knives, guns, x-ray blocking bags, anyways. It's natural, if you think of the 2-dimensional images you get from an x-ray machine. These things can have any odd orientation in the baggage. But instead of realizing the human/technological limitation at security points, and devising new ways to get around that, or defeat new threats, the solution is fire the scanner if anything gets in the press.
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Old 22nd Aug 2003, 05:29
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An absolutely excellent post that should be forwarded to all the media.

"cyrano_de_bergerac" post is the reality of aviation security....
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Old 22nd Aug 2003, 23:38
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With a name like that, he really sounds like a kiwi.
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Old 25th Aug 2003, 20:33
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Whilst it seems to be thought that passengers getting involved is a good idea, there was an incident a few years ago, of a young man being kicked to death on a southwest jet by over zealous pax who thought he was trying to hijack the plane.

I dont have any details on the above, does anyone else remember the story accurately?

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Old 25th Aug 2003, 22:36
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He was on some sort of mental berserker. Uncharacteristic I recall, but who's to know on somebody you don't know who is threatening the safety of everyone? In view of what he was trying, a satisfactory outcome that saw to the paramount issue, the safety of the souls on board. And faced with the same, I would do exactly as the LH Captain did, and add a request to save everyone a lot of bother later by doing a thorough job now!
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