Bad Luck Easyjet!
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Bad Luck Easyjet!
Just heard that Easyjet have just recruited the Ex KLM uk head of Rostering to fulfil the same role.
This Gentleman (PB) was single handedly the cause of at least 100 pilots leaving KLM uk over the last few years of its existance (i.e. before it was ruined by the Dutch). His rostering style leaves a lot to be desired, but he certainly knows his stuff. If you want any life at all in the future, make sure you know your agreements inside out because you can be sure HE will look for every loophole there is. A typical statement is "I will roster that duty, because it is legal and I can..."
Great for management...Cr*p for pilots. Give it a few months and you will see what I mean!!!
This Gentleman (PB) was single handedly the cause of at least 100 pilots leaving KLM uk over the last few years of its existance (i.e. before it was ruined by the Dutch). His rostering style leaves a lot to be desired, but he certainly knows his stuff. If you want any life at all in the future, make sure you know your agreements inside out because you can be sure HE will look for every loophole there is. A typical statement is "I will roster that duty, because it is legal and I can..."
Great for management...Cr*p for pilots. Give it a few months and you will see what I mean!!!
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Skyclamp, you are quite correct. Moral and motivation could'nt get any lower and this is the companys' way of addressing the problem. The stupidity demonstrated by this company has to be seen to be believed ! I have never seen so many worn out pilots.
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I will roster that duty because it's legal, and I can.
Hmmm, when the pilots working there joined in the first place, they surely knew what the legalities were (are), so why are they so surprised now?
When they joined, they asked for work, did they not?
Now that they actually might be (are) working to the legal rule, and the regulations permit same, the company would be in breach of their duty to shareholders to do otherwise.
Oh, boo hoo......
When they joined, they asked for work, did they not?
Now that they actually might be (are) working to the legal rule, and the regulations permit same, the company would be in breach of their duty to shareholders to do otherwise.
Oh, boo hoo......
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Yup, got to agree. And not just for pilots. For anyone working, governed by a contract that has clauses dealing with scheduling - the rules are there in black and white. You know them if you've read the contract and management is bound to work within the rules. A good manager will mitigate within the rules on behalf of the employee as much as is possible - i.e. not seek to apply the worst case scenario just because he/she can. That would make a lousy manager.
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411a -
The problem is that regulations governing prevention of crew fatigue are written in a manner broad enough to cover many different types of operation - night charter, night mail, long haul heavy crew etc. etc.
The problem is that many crewing departments roster to the legal maxima designed to cover operations different to those for which they are rostering. Yes it is legal, but it isn't sensible.
Besides, the regulatory authorities may well state fundamental principles to be observed in the avoidance of crew fatigue. However, because these principles may well not be phrased in terms of strictly defined limits but as broad principles, rostering departments may well find it easier to adhere to the former.
In the UK, CAP 371 has an important preamble in this respect. The CAA has at least twice, to my knowledge, issued Notices to AOC holders for not respecting these principles.
Besides, if your operation depends on high utilisation of your professional workforce, it pays to keep them happy. A confrontational attitude on the part of rosterers is almost always counter-productive.
Besides, if anyone in rostering asks me to do something that is patently absurd, but then claims "well, it's legal", the quick riposte is "well, so's my shagging your wife/girlfriend" - what's legal isn't always sensible.
The problem is that regulations governing prevention of crew fatigue are written in a manner broad enough to cover many different types of operation - night charter, night mail, long haul heavy crew etc. etc.
The problem is that many crewing departments roster to the legal maxima designed to cover operations different to those for which they are rostering. Yes it is legal, but it isn't sensible.
Besides, the regulatory authorities may well state fundamental principles to be observed in the avoidance of crew fatigue. However, because these principles may well not be phrased in terms of strictly defined limits but as broad principles, rostering departments may well find it easier to adhere to the former.
In the UK, CAP 371 has an important preamble in this respect. The CAA has at least twice, to my knowledge, issued Notices to AOC holders for not respecting these principles.
Besides, if your operation depends on high utilisation of your professional workforce, it pays to keep them happy. A confrontational attitude on the part of rosterers is almost always counter-productive.
Besides, if anyone in rostering asks me to do something that is patently absurd, but then claims "well, it's legal", the quick riposte is "well, so's my shagging your wife/girlfriend" - what's legal isn't always sensible.
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Neo,
Can absolutely agree that a contented professional work force affects a companies bottom line in a beneficial way, without a doubt.
Also would agree that short haul is a demanding task for many pilots. My comments were directed at those few individuals who, for reasons known only to themselves, always seem to find fault with the schedule/roster.
Suspect that in many cases, no roster would be acceptable to these guys, as it interferes with their 'social' life.
To those, I can only say...if it is not to your satisfaction, then make room for someone else to do your job.
Can absolutely agree that a contented professional work force affects a companies bottom line in a beneficial way, without a doubt.
Also would agree that short haul is a demanding task for many pilots. My comments were directed at those few individuals who, for reasons known only to themselves, always seem to find fault with the schedule/roster.
Suspect that in many cases, no roster would be acceptable to these guys, as it interferes with their 'social' life.
To those, I can only say...if it is not to your satisfaction, then make room for someone else to do your job.
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411A, you clearly have never worked a roster written by the gentleman in question. My airline, before it was split apart by the present owners, used to have almost 470 pilots and I would guess 1500 cabin crew or so. It isn't sour grapes, but every single person in this company, or colleagues who used to work with us but chose to move elsewhere, will concur that this person went out of his way to make rosters miserable for all. Example, friends of mine..pilot and a cabin crew member on a married roster, almost always managed to get their days off split apart...why? Because he could. He would roster the most absurd amounts of duty time, involving positioning here there and everywhere, for minimum flying time..."you are being fully utilised as you are working on company business.." I mean, spending two days positioning to do an airport standby on the third was not exceptional. In his eyes, that was "efficient!"
He has an answer for everything, as the Easy pilots will find out, so it is almost pointless arguing. On our company website, if a query was made, he would always answer it speedily, but in such a way that no-one would understand a word of it. Politician Speak is one way to put it!
When he left, I can't imagine there was much money in the pot for his leaving present!
He has an answer for everything, as the Easy pilots will find out, so it is almost pointless arguing. On our company website, if a query was made, he would always answer it speedily, but in such a way that no-one would understand a word of it. Politician Speak is one way to put it!
When he left, I can't imagine there was much money in the pot for his leaving present!
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For those of you who moan about a crappy roster I give you this to contemplate.
I worked for 14 years earning an 'ok wage', doing crappy shifts when the organisation I worked for changed the shifts for the benefit of the staff and made them much worse.
During this period I had cause to take a career break thinking I would get my job back no problem, considering I never moaned or complained about hours, and in fact took my pounds worth of flesh in doing as much overtime as possible and staff appraisals showed I was apparently an all round good guy.
It never dawned on me at any point that when I tried to return to work for said organisation that the company were happier to spend thousands of money training a 19 year old school leaver for two years, than giving a 33 year old with 3 children to support and 14 years experience a position of employment.
Must have upset someone eh... I wish I knew who
My point is. For those of you who wish to go an earn money elsewhere or continually moan about working conditions that you accepted be very careful.
To quote that the grass is always greener on the other side is an understatement. I bet you would enjoy working crappy hours affecting your social life than not having a social life.
Cheers McIce
I worked for 14 years earning an 'ok wage', doing crappy shifts when the organisation I worked for changed the shifts for the benefit of the staff and made them much worse.
During this period I had cause to take a career break thinking I would get my job back no problem, considering I never moaned or complained about hours, and in fact took my pounds worth of flesh in doing as much overtime as possible and staff appraisals showed I was apparently an all round good guy.
It never dawned on me at any point that when I tried to return to work for said organisation that the company were happier to spend thousands of money training a 19 year old school leaver for two years, than giving a 33 year old with 3 children to support and 14 years experience a position of employment.
Must have upset someone eh... I wish I knew who
My point is. For those of you who wish to go an earn money elsewhere or continually moan about working conditions that you accepted be very careful.
To quote that the grass is always greener on the other side is an understatement. I bet you would enjoy working crappy hours affecting your social life than not having a social life.
Cheers McIce
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He is back. (411a).
Don't rise to him.
We on the forum understand legal limits and agreements
and the difference between the two.
The 'Guvnor' would have loved this thread.!
Seriously though, I think that all UK pilots are now working
flat out regardless of which scheduled airline they work for.
Competition is tough and Easy started the fares war.
Don't rise to him.
We on the forum understand legal limits and agreements
and the difference between the two.
The 'Guvnor' would have loved this thread.!
Seriously though, I think that all UK pilots are now working
flat out regardless of which scheduled airline they work for.
Competition is tough and Easy started the fares war.
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If the airlines are going to work everyone flat out that's fair enough, but they need to invest money and effort into doing it in a way that benefits everyone.
If you don't believe there are good and bad ways of rostering maximum duties ask any of the ex- GO people who now work at Easyjet, they'll explain it to you.
I have seen first hand the long term combined effect of appalling rostering and flying club 'systems' - it can become a personal assault on ones health, relationships and general well being.
There is no question, it is clearly a flight safety issue.
Working hard is fair enough but when it comes with a 'screw you' attitude it becomes unacceptable behavior and should be dealt with as such.
People like McIce need to raise their standards because there is no good reason for crap rostering in this day and age. The fact is that many of the top managements continue to pay themselves undeserved large bonuses rather than improve the safety and efficiency of their companies.
If you don't believe there are good and bad ways of rostering maximum duties ask any of the ex- GO people who now work at Easyjet, they'll explain it to you.
I have seen first hand the long term combined effect of appalling rostering and flying club 'systems' - it can become a personal assault on ones health, relationships and general well being.
There is no question, it is clearly a flight safety issue.
Working hard is fair enough but when it comes with a 'screw you' attitude it becomes unacceptable behavior and should be dealt with as such.
People like McIce need to raise their standards because there is no good reason for crap rostering in this day and age. The fact is that many of the top managements continue to pay themselves undeserved large bonuses rather than improve the safety and efficiency of their companies.
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PB working at Easyjet in Rostering?
If it is true then best of luck guys.
Any mention of his contribution at KLMuk in previous postings is quite true.
Don't mind working to CAP 371 - it is how it is applied is the important bit.
If it is true then best of luck guys.
Any mention of his contribution at KLMuk in previous postings is quite true.
Don't mind working to CAP 371 - it is how it is applied is the important bit.
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We often hear comparisons with other jobs. Sure everyone gets worked as hard as possible nowadays as accountants are now in charge. However, to take accountants as an example, if they are tired they may make a mistake with some accounting paperwork. In our business if we make a mistake we can kill a lot of people in the aircraft and many others at the crash site, and some of those may be accountants. It doesn't make sense for pilots to be worked right up to the limit all the time for our, and their sakes.
Furthermore the limits are arbitrary. We are all different in the way we may suffer overwork on any particular day. It also depends on where you are flying to and from, as some places are easier to cope with than others, the weather, and many others factors.
Furthermore the limits are arbitrary. We are all different in the way we may suffer overwork on any particular day. It also depends on where you are flying to and from, as some places are easier to cope with than others, the weather, and many others factors.
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This chap is popular then!!???
Some of my fellow rostering/crewing bods need to remember CAP371 sets out the max, not the norm for flight crew.
Roster to the max and expect morale to fall and disruption to increase.
Its not rocket science chaps!!
Some of my fellow rostering/crewing bods need to remember CAP371 sets out the max, not the norm for flight crew.
Roster to the max and expect morale to fall and disruption to increase.
Its not rocket science chaps!!