Bomb in shoe joke lands AF pilot in hot water

[VFE]

Must admit to being slightly appalled at the holier than thou remarks being posted here by people pretending to be whiter than white. Oh to be perfect eh!

A similar scenario nearly happened to me when I was checking in for a flight from MCO to LGW last year. When asked if there were any dangerous items inside my baggage my French flying instructor friend who was seeing me off joked: "good job you don't have that rocket launcher in your suitcase still VFE!"

Now my arse nearly dropped and I gave the prat one helluva an evil I can tell you. The check in staff member looked concerned for a moment and then carried on checking my baggage. I don't think she actually heard my mate to be honest otherwise I'm pretty sure it woulda been 'touch-your-toes-time' for VFE that day. Thank god it wasn't persued otherwise I might still be jammed up in the USA or who knows - maybe even Guantanamo Bay!

This Air France pilot made an ill-judged crack just like my French flying instructor mate did. I know it was inappropriate but for someone to post here that they "deserve all they get" is a tad Draconian to say the least. Seems like some security staff are hell bent on coming 'the big I am' when it comes to pilot security which is sad when you think about as it's most probably born out of jealousy at the end of the day.

I'm not saying security should be relaxed for one minute but for gods sake use discretion and be mature about it. I feel sorry for the Air France guy, he'll probably lose his job, house, and maybe even his licence as a result of blurting out an ill thought wise crack.

Very sorry tale indeed and a lesson for us all - SLF included.

VFE.

[newarksmells]

some factual information

The pilot was arrainged today on 2 Felony counts and IF found guilty faces up to 11 years in jail. He is currently free on $7,500 bail with his next appearance on August 22nd...

And now for my personal thoughts...

How was security to know he was a real pilot? Forged papers and uniforms are very easy to get. But in reading your comments, the majority of posters seem to think security was wrong to hold this guy...presumably because of language difficulties. Has everybody forgot about the Middle-Eastern co-pilot who cut the engines while the Pilot went to the bathroom?

And I know comments like security personnel have a low IQ, are rednecks etc are prevalent here...just from reading the posts. If that's true, they're still smarter than the pilot. They slept in their own bed last night. And if the security folks are so stupid, who translated Shoe Bomb from French to English for them?

Let's face it, this particular piot was stupid beyond belief. If he wasn't, he wouldn't be facing 2 felony charges like he is now. And that is AFTER the evidence has been provided to a judge.

Newark

[paulo]

Are there any airports that choose not to screen people in 'convincing' outfits?

[bluecrane]

Identification is the key

The solution is proper identification. If it is possible to identify a skymarshal and let him get onboard with his gun, it must be possible to identify a flight deck crewmember and let them through without a big security show.

Thought number 2: What would the reaction be, if the same thing had happened to a US crew in Paris?

[prattbrat]

rollingthunder

I have respect for any true professional, especially those who deal skillfully with complex events in dangerous environments (read: any flight). In any group there will be some prats.

I see, the guy (read prat) conducted himself professionally while dealing skillfully in a dangerous environment by joking he had a bomb in his shoes. That one was a complex event.


No wonder you have respect for him. (pun intended)

Usually I prefer to put women on a pedestal, and look up their skirts.

[Tripower455]

Identification is the key
The solution is proper identification. If it is possible to identify a skymarshal and let him get onboard with his gun, it must be possible to identify a flight deck crewmember and let them through without a big security show.

Absolutely! This is the crux of the issue, and has been for almost 15 years.........

[newarksmells]

and

how do you account for false paperwork, IDs and uniforms if anybody who looks like a pilot is allowed to bypass security?

The fact they caught a pilot who now has 2 felonies against him and who will probably end up on the Darwin Awards is immaterial.

What's to stop a potential terrorist dressing like a pilot with fake IDs and bypassing security according to the posts i have just read?

Newark

[Loose rivets]

Some time ago, wrote a light hearted comment on the early days of airport security. Sadly, what I experience and read about now, makes me glad that I had the best of days: this bullying by wannabe police officers has become wholly unacceptable.

A while back a U.S. airline had a luckless passenger that made the mistake of saying that (his friend's) violin?-case, contained a machine gun. It was an obvious reference to the days of Capone, and was the unguarded - and no doubt foolish - words of an ordinary nervous passenger. Bravado shows itself in strange ways, but this does not make this young chap a potential hijacker. When he had gained his freedom, the airline told him that he was banned for life. He is probably still paying back the fine.

The security people, the police and the airline, had no right whatsoever in treating this man as they did. There is no doubt in my mind, that had he had the wherewithal (hard cash ) to take this to the higher echelons of the legal profession, he could have successfully fought, and won, a case on the grounds of violation of human rights. Sending a man to jail - even just police cells - for a nervous joke, is not on.

In the case of the AF pilot: well, he clearly should have known better. But to haul him off - to the determent of hundreds of passengers - is nothing short of crazy...who are they punishing? It seems to me, that the answer is everyone...except the bas****s that are guilty of a crime. Okay, we must never forget the bewildering horror of 9/11, but the answer is the same: we must not punish a continuous stream of innocent passengers and hard working aircrew.

It takes a long time to become a police officer, and even then it takes the wisdom of Solomon to be a good one. We cannot allow this continued bullying of aircrew by inexperienced (to put it politely) "officers" to continue. When I wrote the original comment, I suggested that we should not hurt the investors and operators by inappropriate action. Now I am suggesting, that not to take very determined action, will ultimately hurt the industry a great deal more.

Clearly the first line of attack must be via a stepped up effort on the part of the Pilots, c/c and engineer's unions. They have done good work on safety issues in the past, with the rider that they, as a band of people, tend to be rather....and I'm struggling for a good word here.....gentlemanly. We have to have an established set of rules governing aircrew access to their aircraft, that is the same world-wide. If there is any action taken that goes beyond the standard, then they should have to explain this to appropriate governing bodies. Every single time. And perhaps the local government should have to compensate the airline and passengers where no good cause is found for the delay.

Time and time again, I find myself talking to, and hearing of, people with good jobs that can no longer stand the hassle and delays caused by airport security. Some have already given up their jobs, others are trying to find a way to do so. My experiences are obviously the very small tip of the iceberg. Further, a large number of the internal passengers in the U.S. are on work related jorneys. The delays are not just hurting a vacation, but whole companies. This has not reversed, or even stopped increasing...it's getting worse, and they are our bread and butter.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

To have inconveninced so many passengers and cost the Airline such an unnecessary loss is reverse terrorsim.

The pilot could have been charged with the offense of being stupid and allowed to fly the trip.

After all where would he have gone?

Chuck E.

[robmac]

Guys,

I suggest we probably wrap this thread up for now, as it is beginning to come together as an info guide to the potential terrorist.

robmac

[mgerrard]

Apparently it wasn't just the bomb joke that cause a problem.

He apparently refused to take off his shoes and then tried to walk around the metal detector. When he was stopped from doing that then he made the bomb joke.

I do agree with the comments about TSA staff though, but the bigger problem is the idiots at higher levels(GW Bush and John Ashcroft to name but two). They are just trying to cover their rear ends with the public after 9/11 and they are the ones who hand the orders down.

Unfortunately, it's like a game of Chinese whispers and the translation from English to Spanish doesn't help matters.

[ZQA297/30]

I suspect that bloodymindedness has more than a little to do with this incident (possibly by both parties).

Mere hours before this incident, at JFK, my F/O politely asked if they were going to put some carpet in the screening area since everyone was padding around on the cold floor in their socks, and he received a very hostile reply to the effect that higher ups are in charge of that, move on and shut up.
The poor purser, who was right behind him, was selected for random check.

I refuse to be convinced that any would-be terrorist would announce to security that there was a bomb in his shoe and thereby attract extra attention, so that no matter what bad taste- it would have been obvious that this was an attempt at an ironic joke.
I suspect that the Freedom Fries Factor crept in there too.
No doubt it could have been handled in a less heavy handed way.
Hope it doesn't deteriorate into a childish tit for tat game.

[John Barnes]

The biggest threat to security is the security staff itself. With about three braincells in total that have to be shared with immigration as well you understand why we have to take off our shoes!! But what do you expect when your avarage pay for a security staff member at an international airport barely matches the minimum wage level ( In China!!)

[CaptainJurassic]

As Jim Croce once said:

You don't tug on Superman's cape
You dont' spit into the wind,
You don't pull the mask of the old Lone Ranger

And you certainly don't mess around with the mental midgets and mini Hitlers in the TSA.

Actually, that last bit wasn't really in the song, but you get my drift. As one very familiar with Government mentality, I issue a plea to all aviators to NEVER EVER try to dazzle these people with your flashing wit. It will all end in tears every time.

Be careful out there..

[Devils Advocate]

Uhm, seeing how we've got one on the flight deck already ( making sure to procure the exact same type as that one, so that it's a like-for-like situation ), next time you head off for work why not pop a fire axe in your flight bag ?

I can see it now.......

Security nerd - "What the hell is this ?!"

Pilot - "It's my personal fire axe. It's precisely the same as the one we already have on the flightdeck."

Security nerd - "But you can't take this through security, it's not allowed."

Pilot - "But as I say, there's already one on the flight deck which is exactly the same as this - this is simply a backup to that one - in that it's always handy to have two of everything, e.g. should one break, etc ... a bit like why we have two or more engines."

Security nerd - "But it's not allowed !"

Pilot - "But there's already one there that's the exact same as this - so why can't I have my own personal one as well ?"

Security nerd - "You're taking the P out of us, aren't you ?!"

Pilot - "I'm saying nothing."

etc...........

Oh yes, there's hours of esoteric fun to be had with this ( ok, probably not ).

[maninblack]

Three weeks ago my wife and two children flew to the US to visit their respective parents/grandparents.

On arrival in "The Country Formerly Known as Land of the Free." the two children were seperated from their mother by a "security goon" and had an explosives sniffer pointed at them.

When the six year old became hysterical at having a "gun" pointed at him and screamed for his mother the said goon ordered my wife to keep away from the children and then started shouting at her and the crying child.

I do hope this intellectual pygmy feels proud of himself for following the rules, to the letter, without the need to ever worry his tiny brain with the concept of "interpretation" "common sense" and that he displayed that customer first attitude that characterises much of the United States. My wife is disenchanted with the US these days because of oafs like this and she is a citizen.

[Tan]

Cargo Boy

An excellent realistic post...I love your idea of shutting down the system worldwide...An idea whose time has come.

[Tripower455]

An excellent realistic post...I love your idea of shutting down the system worldwide...An idea whose time has come.

It's ironic that this is precisely what it took for the feds to start screening passengers in the first place! I guess that we have to be careful what we wish for.

I bet that not ONE of the guys who originally staged the SOS for screening ever though that they would be treated as passengers on their own airplanes.

[Flash2001]

Coupla comments here:

Robmac

Do you really believe that anything that anything that is generally known to the pilot community is unknown to the terrorists?

Given the quality of security person that is described on these pages, do you want to give him any options at all?

[CarltonBrowne the FO]

All the points Tripower and others have made are valid; it is ridiculous to screen crews, while most other airport employees can go airside without being subject to it.
Make it fair to everybody. Screen everyone.