biggin air show
Guest
Posts: n/a
I've just got in from the Biggin show where I saw the last couple of seconds of the accident flight. It seemed to go into the trees at a pretty steep angle and there was a big pall of smoke - it was fairly apparent that it was unlikely to be survivable. It was a lot more than 100yds from the crowd line as has been reported though, right over the opposite side of the runway to where the crowd was. I could see the fire engines doing their job very quickly but we tried to leave asap. It's a pretty sobering experience to see one of your fellow flyers lose their life in front of your eyes like that, I just wanted to get out of there. All the airfield exits were sealed for about 50 minutes though stopping anyone leaving to allow the emergency services free access to unclogged roads outside. The stewarding and organisation of access routes was excellent, I have to say, despite the heavy traffic. The on airfield "Air Fair" radio station was brilliant keeping you informed why we weren't being allowed to leave - preventing a lot of frustration, and stewards were walking up and down from car to car keeping people informed. 10/10 to the organisers in very unfortunate circumstances.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Whitesail
No consolation on such a dreadful day, but 1996 was as bad; I think I'm correct in remembering that the Mosquito at Barton and the P-38 at Duxford were lost on the same day.
Things seemed to improve after that - we all felt that accidents seem to come in concentrated little patches - but last year was awful and this last couple of months has just been unbelievable.
A point made at the display pilot's conference earlier this year was that it's not newbies or hooligans who are having accidents, but experienced, careful pilots.
What a dreadful weekend.
No consolation on such a dreadful day, but 1996 was as bad; I think I'm correct in remembering that the Mosquito at Barton and the P-38 at Duxford were lost on the same day.
Things seemed to improve after that - we all felt that accidents seem to come in concentrated little patches - but last year was awful and this last couple of months has just been unbelievable.
A point made at the display pilot's conference earlier this year was that it's not newbies or hooligans who are having accidents, but experienced, careful pilots.
What a dreadful weekend.
Guest
Posts: n/a
I've just got back from Biggin and saw it go in. I was in the farmers field in Addington just accross the valley from Biggin. I was queing for an Ice cream with the kids as it (Aircobra ?) flew over, I turned my back and the noise of the engine made me turn back, I saw it nose down, it then went behind some trees and I waited for what seemed an eternity for it to come out. All that emerged was that dreadfull pall of firery smoke.
My Dad saw the whole thing (a non Pilot) he says the Aircraft did a "stall turn" and as soon as the nose was pointing down he knew it was in trouble.
As John Farley says, someone had a quick end doing what they love. Not much consolation for his family, but some. My thoughts are with his family, friends and the two other professional display pilots (Mustang and Spit I think) who had to climb to about 1500' and circle the field.
A sad sad day.
edit for spelling
[This message has been edited by New Bloke (edited 03 June 2001).]
My Dad saw the whole thing (a non Pilot) he says the Aircraft did a "stall turn" and as soon as the nose was pointing down he knew it was in trouble.
As John Farley says, someone had a quick end doing what they love. Not much consolation for his family, but some. My thoughts are with his family, friends and the two other professional display pilots (Mustang and Spit I think) who had to climb to about 1500' and circle the field.
A sad sad day.
edit for spelling
[This message has been edited by New Bloke (edited 03 June 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
Sincere condolences to Ken and Jonathon's family.(Names have been released)
Having watched Clive land with the gear up, shortly after we landed in the morning, and then Ken spiral into the dirt with Jonathon onboard at the end of the show, i felt physically sick.
It was a very bad day, from which a lot of lessons will be learnt, the only thing any of us can do who were there and watched Saturdays incidents is let Rod Dean (CAA SRG) and jet warbird driver know how these unnecessary accidents occured and get him to re-visit SOP's in his own hobby house!
I could not believe my ears after being told of todays tragic accident, as the Cobra was being flown very well yesterday with no hint of being close to his "DA" limits.
A tragic weekend, with sad consequences but I for one will be voicing my concerns to RD in the hope that, maybe with others a fresh look at displays will happen?
I cannot comment on the Cobra accident at all, but both incidents on Saturday should never have happened.
The AAIB will no doubt come to the same conclusion in its report, from which we await the release of before full conclusions and remedies can be implemenmted.
What a CR** weekend.
God bless you all, and say hello to Norman and Mark for me!
Having watched Clive land with the gear up, shortly after we landed in the morning, and then Ken spiral into the dirt with Jonathon onboard at the end of the show, i felt physically sick.
It was a very bad day, from which a lot of lessons will be learnt, the only thing any of us can do who were there and watched Saturdays incidents is let Rod Dean (CAA SRG) and jet warbird driver know how these unnecessary accidents occured and get him to re-visit SOP's in his own hobby house!
I could not believe my ears after being told of todays tragic accident, as the Cobra was being flown very well yesterday with no hint of being close to his "DA" limits.
A tragic weekend, with sad consequences but I for one will be voicing my concerns to RD in the hope that, maybe with others a fresh look at displays will happen?
I cannot comment on the Cobra accident at all, but both incidents on Saturday should never have happened.
The AAIB will no doubt come to the same conclusion in its report, from which we await the release of before full conclusions and remedies can be implemenmted.
What a CR** weekend.
God bless you all, and say hello to Norman and Mark for me!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Ivchenko / Man on Fence.
I dont know the rules as you guys obviously do, but I was with the Red Arrows (groundcrew) for a while a few years back and my understanding of the rules then were that passengers could not be carried on displays. Yet I noted that the back seat was occupied on one Reds aircraft on the Saturday display. Maybe the rules have changed - I dont know, but in the light of the Vampire tragedy it would appear to be common sense not to carry a passenger unless it was absolutely necessary, would it not?
I dont know the rules as you guys obviously do, but I was with the Red Arrows (groundcrew) for a while a few years back and my understanding of the rules then were that passengers could not be carried on displays. Yet I noted that the back seat was occupied on one Reds aircraft on the Saturday display. Maybe the rules have changed - I dont know, but in the light of the Vampire tragedy it would appear to be common sense not to carry a passenger unless it was absolutely necessary, would it not?
Guest
Posts: n/a
I've just got back from Biggin where I saw the whole appalling thing. My hands are still shaking as I type this.
The P-63 Kingcobra was flying a tailchase display with and A-4 Syraider and a P-47 Thunderbolt. The formation had split up and the P-63 peeled off into a tight loop but appeared to stall pulling out of it. The aircraft then pitched nose down violently and although the pilot attempted to recover, he ran out of altitude and crashed among trees about 50 yards from the tower, 20 yards from parked GA aircraft on the apron and 20 yards from the main road. There was a massive expolsion, the fireball must have gone up 200-300 feet, and although the emergency services were on the scene in seconds it was painfully obvious that the pilot could not have survived.
My sincere condolences to the pilots family, friends and colleagues at the Fighter Collection, and those colleagues here on PPrune, too.
(The pilot has been named elsewhere but I shall not disclose the name as I don't know if this was official)
The P-63 Kingcobra was flying a tailchase display with and A-4 Syraider and a P-47 Thunderbolt. The formation had split up and the P-63 peeled off into a tight loop but appeared to stall pulling out of it. The aircraft then pitched nose down violently and although the pilot attempted to recover, he ran out of altitude and crashed among trees about 50 yards from the tower, 20 yards from parked GA aircraft on the apron and 20 yards from the main road. There was a massive expolsion, the fireball must have gone up 200-300 feet, and although the emergency services were on the scene in seconds it was painfully obvious that the pilot could not have survived.
My sincere condolences to the pilots family, friends and colleagues at the Fighter Collection, and those colleagues here on PPrune, too.
(The pilot has been named elsewhere but I shall not disclose the name as I don't know if this was official)
Guest
Posts: n/a
I'd like to congratulate the Biggin Hill AFS who appeared to arrive at today’s scene within seconds of the incident. Thanks also to Air Traffic who was theire normal very professional and friendly self’s even during these very sad times.
Do we have any Biggin ATCO's lurking?
Please, no more accidents.......ever.
Do we have any Biggin ATCO's lurking?
Please, no more accidents.......ever.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Foxxxy, I think as with all aircraft accidents, it's way too early to speculate on what caused them from the comfort of your PC chair. Do you really believe the usual made-up bull**** from the media which suggested the Vampire had flown over the crowd four times before crashing? Do it once and you get a verbal warning. Do it twice and you get told to go away in no uncertain terms. Three times? Nahh. Four times? No wonder people don't like flying.
And ranting about 'Rod Dean and his hobby house' will not prevent aircraft accidents, this sounding more like a personal vendetta against the CAA rather than informed opinion. Of anybody working at the Belgrano, Rod would be the first to suggest changes to the SOP's where they were needed. What will help to prevent accidents is to learn from whatever errors/failures contributed in the first place and to act on those lessons. And as I have said before, the pages of this forum are not the place for un-informed peeps to be airing their views. I await the AAIB reports with interest. Nuff said really!
My Condolences to Ken, Jim and the other pilot's respective families. (name not released yet).
And ranting about 'Rod Dean and his hobby house' will not prevent aircraft accidents, this sounding more like a personal vendetta against the CAA rather than informed opinion. Of anybody working at the Belgrano, Rod would be the first to suggest changes to the SOP's where they were needed. What will help to prevent accidents is to learn from whatever errors/failures contributed in the first place and to act on those lessons. And as I have said before, the pages of this forum are not the place for un-informed peeps to be airing their views. I await the AAIB reports with interest. Nuff said really!
My Condolences to Ken, Jim and the other pilot's respective families. (name not released yet).
Guest
Posts: n/a
I have recently returned from Biggin. I was in the crowd right opposite the crash site. The Cobra appeared to be pulling up for a loop having just broken off from the tailchase ( as No 3 ). The wind was towards the crowd-line and he appeared to be getting very close to the line because of this. As he approached near to the vertical it seemed to me that he realized his proximity to the crowd and pulled round to his right (crowd left). It was then a fast sequence of movements - it seemed to me that he may have autorotated through a little more than 360 degrees such that his final track was approx 20 deg off the display line heading away from the crowd. He then impacted in a steep nose down attitude only just beginning to pull out of the dive. As previous reporters have said, the impact was well over 100 yards away from the crowd, probably more like three to four hundred metres away. I was stunned and felt sick to the pit of my stomach to see a fellow aviator die like that. My thoughts are with his friends and family.
[This message has been edited by pietenpohl (edited 04 June 2001).]
[This message has been edited by pietenpohl (edited 04 June 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
I am sorry to say the gutter press are out again.
This form the Sky News website
"Journalist Benedict Parsons, from Crondall, Hampshire, said: "He tried to show off in front of the crowds. It looked as if he was trying to keep up with two far more powerful aircraft. The aircraft looked under-powered for the manoeuvres it was trying to do."
So thats it then....
Or was he just trying to get his name in the papers
This form the Sky News website
"Journalist Benedict Parsons, from Crondall, Hampshire, said: "He tried to show off in front of the crowds. It looked as if he was trying to keep up with two far more powerful aircraft. The aircraft looked under-powered for the manoeuvres it was trying to do."
So thats it then....
Or was he just trying to get his name in the papers
Guest
Posts: n/a
I witnessed the Vampire crash. The Vamp was tucked close in under the Vixen's tail as they turned out, and suddenly the Vamp just fell away. It looked like it may have been a highspeed stall, or savage turbulence from the Vixen.
I have digital photos. Does anyone know the email address of the AIB please?
My heartfelt condolences to the families of the deceased.
To the pilots who died. There should be a word which means, "Sorry" and "Thankyou" together....but words just aren't enough.
I am very upset.
I have digital photos. Does anyone know the email address of the AIB please?
My heartfelt condolences to the families of the deceased.
To the pilots who died. There should be a word which means, "Sorry" and "Thankyou" together....but words just aren't enough.
I am very upset.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Stonebird
Their URL is below, the contact details are on there.
http://www.aaib.detr.gov.uk/index/index.htm
MOTF
Guest
Posts: n/a
Zlin 526, you must be on something, as i cannot see anything in my post that relates to anything you have said in your's.
If you were not there, and did not see it happen, and you were not another display pilot or any other pilot waiting to line up and depart then wind your neck in!
If you were not there, and did not see it happen, and you were not another display pilot or any other pilot waiting to line up and depart then wind your neck in!
Guest
Posts: n/a
One of the things I found most distressing was the video image on the news last night, not the plume of smoke so much. The idea that someone has taken a video and then presumably is on the ‘phone to the BBC asking how much will they get for it.
Well done Stonebird for your sensitive and proper enquiry.
Again my heart goes out to the family and friends of all three pilots and the pilots of the two remaining warbirds forced to circle the field while the emergency services attended their friend and colleague. What must have be going through their minds I can only imagine.
Well done Stonebird for your sensitive and proper enquiry.
Again my heart goes out to the family and friends of all three pilots and the pilots of the two remaining warbirds forced to circle the field while the emergency services attended their friend and colleague. What must have be going through their minds I can only imagine.