Amazing unprofessionalism in Africa
ATC watcher
It is a legit question if time permits. I was topping some buildups a few days ago, and of course at the worst possible time came the "descend and maintain" clearance. That would have put us in harms way. I asked for and recieved at pilots discretion clearance. Otherwise I would have had to decline the clearance and I suppose taken penalty vectors waaaaay off course.
It is a legit question if time permits. I was topping some buildups a few days ago, and of course at the worst possible time came the "descend and maintain" clearance. That would have put us in harms way. I asked for and recieved at pilots discretion clearance. Otherwise I would have had to decline the clearance and I suppose taken penalty vectors waaaaay off course.
ATC Watcher,
No wind-up.
I've been flying for nearly 40 yrs, been a mil pilot & ATCO and have had an ATPL since '73. Flown all over the world as a captain with two major airlines.
I stand by my comments.
No wind-up.
I've been flying for nearly 40 yrs, been a mil pilot & ATCO and have had an ATPL since '73. Flown all over the world as a captain with two major airlines.
I stand by my comments.
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>>Are you guys really ATPL rated or you're having a wind up.?
the R/T phraseo whether ICAO or FAA is clear ; there is no " now" in the book. you might asume or think what you like but not following the book will get you one day in trouble.<<
May I assume that you don't fly international long haul for a living?
the R/T phraseo whether ICAO or FAA is clear ; there is no " now" in the book. you might asume or think what you like but not following the book will get you one day in trouble.<<
May I assume that you don't fly international long haul for a living?
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In the last 30+ years, have flown almost exclusively out of the USA/Europe (except for flights to/from, of course) and one could only wish for the consistancy of ATC services that, for example, most of Europe/USA provides.
From the days on 6624 (AM, no sideband then in the BOM FIR) until today in many far away locals, it sometimes is very difficult deciding just what ATC really expects.
From the days on 6624 (AM, no sideband then in the BOM FIR) until today in many far away locals, it sometimes is very difficult deciding just what ATC really expects.
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BIG PARTYR
Opps, sorry, Canada good as well.
Oddly enough, mostly approached North America from the Pacific side, via HNL.
Sometimes a rather big problem is rushing up to TOD only to find that you can't get a word in edgewise.
Younger First Officers (PF) have problems with this, so just usually suggest for them to close the taps to slow down, then descend when they can, spoilers if required.
Opps, sorry, Canada good as well.
Oddly enough, mostly approached North America from the Pacific side, via HNL.
Sometimes a rather big problem is rushing up to TOD only to find that you can't get a word in edgewise.
Younger First Officers (PF) have problems with this, so just usually suggest for them to close the taps to slow down, then descend when they can, spoilers if required.
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411A
Why is it you always have to put in a dig about how crap F/Os are? Any F/O who has passed all his training should know how to get back on profile if high. Perhaps your airline has a problem with selection/ training? But let's not get into a slanging match about good/ bad F/Os and Captains as the point is not relevant to this post.
Regarding the comments about descending, I think an important point on phraseology is the use of the word 'to'. This word should not be included in a descent from one flight level to another (or indeed a climb.) It should only be used for a descent 'to' an altitude/ height. Hear plenty of 'to' flight levels and it's just a mistake waiting to happen................
PP
Sometimes a rather big problem is rushing up to TOD only to find that you can't get a word in edgewise. Younger First Officers (PF) have problems with this, so just usually suggest for them to close the taps to slow down, then descend when they can, spoilers if required.
Regarding the comments about descending, I think an important point on phraseology is the use of the word 'to'. This word should not be included in a descent from one flight level to another (or indeed a climb.) It should only be used for a descent 'to' an altitude/ height. Hear plenty of 'to' flight levels and it's just a mistake waiting to happen................
PP
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Pilot Pete,
Certainly no 'dig' at First Officers.
Was referring to the guys/gals under training.
As they have just come from the sim, where they had enough to do without worring about descent technique....if they are never told, how else are they expected to learn?
When they are released to line flying, they will certainly be told sixteen different ways (by sixteen different line Captains) how to do it, the training Captain's job is to give 'em a clue in the right direction.
Certainly no 'dig' at First Officers.
Was referring to the guys/gals under training.
As they have just come from the sim, where they had enough to do without worring about descent technique....if they are never told, how else are they expected to learn?
When they are released to line flying, they will certainly be told sixteen different ways (by sixteen different line Captains) how to do it, the training Captain's job is to give 'em a clue in the right direction.
Pegase Driver
Gee, you are making my day,
West Coast : asking for a pilots discreation or a delay in executing a clearance for any legitimate reason ( E.G BUIDUP ) is perfectly OK. we are not taling about those.
Basil : Airspace is not designed for your confort : For inbound EDDF as you mention the coordination point is FL 240 85 NM before airport. This was done to keep you clear of EDDL,EDDK,EBBR traffic all within 30 NM
If you coming above FL320, your top of descent is likely to be way off what your FMS say. asking systemeatically " rignt now ?" is really pissing us off. as we have something else to do as to reapeat all our clearances twice.
Airbubba : No I do not fly international longhaul for a living, ( that mean I am no expert in Procedural and oceanic control
). But I fly IR since 1967 , and control Upper airspace since 1973 (for a living) so I have heard my share of bad R/T, beleive me.
411A : What ATC really expect is some form of following the procedures and the phraseo. Of course not the whole ATC word is at the same level. In some countries ( e,g India, Africa, South Am etc,, ) salries of controllers are less than a 100 USD a month .
Do not expect miracles .
Now why am I so bitchy about this ? : an example : some time ago I had 3 outbounds EHAM and 2 inbounds opposite on top of my usal load of overflight and EGLL deps . all was under control and nicely planned until one guy questioned a descent : " Do we really have to leave now ? " - Affirm, -was my reply before switching to another problem . Then the guy took 30 seconds to vacate and did so with 300 ft/min. When I realised, I had to level off 1 outbound and turn away 30 deg the other : answer of the bloke : you did not specify a rate, so it is my discretion !.
Some guys have apparently a problem with receiving clearances they do not like , and / or consider ATC as bothering their freedom to fly. If you want freedom buy yourself a glider, but do not come in my airspace. It is full of restrictions.
Now a glass of wine to cool down...
West Coast : asking for a pilots discreation or a delay in executing a clearance for any legitimate reason ( E.G BUIDUP ) is perfectly OK. we are not taling about those.
Basil : Airspace is not designed for your confort : For inbound EDDF as you mention the coordination point is FL 240 85 NM before airport. This was done to keep you clear of EDDL,EDDK,EBBR traffic all within 30 NM
If you coming above FL320, your top of descent is likely to be way off what your FMS say. asking systemeatically " rignt now ?" is really pissing us off. as we have something else to do as to reapeat all our clearances twice.
Airbubba : No I do not fly international longhaul for a living, ( that mean I am no expert in Procedural and oceanic control
). But I fly IR since 1967 , and control Upper airspace since 1973 (for a living) so I have heard my share of bad R/T, beleive me.411A : What ATC really expect is some form of following the procedures and the phraseo. Of course not the whole ATC word is at the same level. In some countries ( e,g India, Africa, South Am etc,, ) salries of controllers are less than a 100 USD a month .
Do not expect miracles .
Now why am I so bitchy about this ? : an example : some time ago I had 3 outbounds EHAM and 2 inbounds opposite on top of my usal load of overflight and EGLL deps . all was under control and nicely planned until one guy questioned a descent : " Do we really have to leave now ? " - Affirm, -was my reply before switching to another problem . Then the guy took 30 seconds to vacate and did so with 300 ft/min. When I realised, I had to level off 1 outbound and turn away 30 deg the other : answer of the bloke : you did not specify a rate, so it is my discretion !.
Some guys have apparently a problem with receiving clearances they do not like , and / or consider ATC as bothering their freedom to fly. If you want freedom buy yourself a glider, but do not come in my airspace. It is full of restrictions.
Now a glass of wine to cool down...
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some yrs back, S. of Karachi, we were a bit in front of SQ for a crossing point, F370, SQ instructed to descend to 330... long argument, in the course of which SQ asked us would we mind them crossing astern of us visual!!! (Daylight, VMC.) We weren't interested in that and the argument with Karachi ATC continued - eventually we picked him up visually steaming steadily in from nine o'clock - at the last moment he obeyed Karachi's increasingly urgent instructions, last seen in a gentle descent 500 or 1000 metres astern of us.
There is nothing you can say to people like that, and nothing constructive you can do about it.
There is nothing you can say to people like that, and nothing constructive you can do about it.
In Australia the phrase "When ready............." is used if the descent point is to be left up to the pilot. Standard descent profiles have been agreed between ATC and operators for various aircraft types ,these can of course be varied if required.
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Slight diversion of the thread……
Metro man.
I am always bemused by this statement in the OZ context.
‘Standard descent profiles have been agreed between ATC and operators for various aircraft types’
I’ve never worked for an operator who has been involved in any discussion leading to any agreement of this nature, yet I am constantly exhorted to ‘resume standard profile’ or words to that effect.
Yes, I’m talking heavies here.
I’m sure that Qantas talks to CASA / Air Services when they introduce a new type, and Ansett, in their day probably did likewise. Perhaps Virgin are now amongst the realms of the Godly, The rest of us mortals are never consulted on anything.
What exactly are these ‘standard profiles’? They’re not published.
(Yes, I know what ATC think my ‘standard profile’ is in the aircraft I fly, but that’s because I chased the info, not because it’s published, or agreed to by my employer.)
Snooze
Metro man.
I am always bemused by this statement in the OZ context.
‘Standard descent profiles have been agreed between ATC and operators for various aircraft types’
I’ve never worked for an operator who has been involved in any discussion leading to any agreement of this nature, yet I am constantly exhorted to ‘resume standard profile’ or words to that effect.
Yes, I’m talking heavies here.
I’m sure that Qantas talks to CASA / Air Services when they introduce a new type, and Ansett, in their day probably did likewise. Perhaps Virgin are now amongst the realms of the Godly, The rest of us mortals are never consulted on anything.
What exactly are these ‘standard profiles’? They’re not published.
(Yes, I know what ATC think my ‘standard profile’ is in the aircraft I fly, but that’s because I chased the info, not because it’s published, or agreed to by my employer.)
Snooze
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I'm a bit out of touch, but I'll have a go.
Standard profiles arose because even though AN and QF operated the same types, they operated them differently. This caused sequencing problems (and as they went everywhere in pairs- in the true spirit of competition- something had to be changed).
The "resume standard profile" I think you are referring to is actually "resume profile speed" or "resume normal speed" which releases you from a speed restriction, but means you must still comply with STAR speeds etc.
Someone more current may correct me.
Standard profiles arose because even though AN and QF operated the same types, they operated them differently. This caused sequencing problems (and as they went everywhere in pairs- in the true spirit of competition- something had to be changed).
The "resume standard profile" I think you are referring to is actually "resume profile speed" or "resume normal speed" which releases you from a speed restriction, but means you must still comply with STAR speeds etc.
Someone more current may correct me.
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I think what has been said about standard profile above is correct - eg the QF 767-300, used a standard descent speed of current mach no./300kts, and the QF 767-200 with Pratt's used 320kts (something to do with maintaining the profile with Ansetts 767-200's with GE engines). (now i think it just reverted to 300kts with Ansett being no longer)
Also does it have something to do with the Flight plan you file ? Don't you nominate a descent speed in your flight plan ?
Also does it have something to do with the Flight plan you file ? Don't you nominate a descent speed in your flight plan ?
Humus Motor
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Well, I heard some 'amazing unprofessionalism' in Europe last year. On intermediate approach to a Very Big Airport (which has featured in these threads before) - and the controller lost the plot. Clearly and undoubtedly. There were stammers, rapid reversals of vectors and altitudes, voice-pitch raised to falsetto and sentences hauntingly halted in the middle.
This actually wasn't the unprofessional bit though - another gentleman from a very major European airline interrupted the controller (who, incidentally was sequencing me and an Alitalia on to parallel runways, and was beginning to get it sorted out) with an absolute diatribe of .. well, abuse frankly. He told her what he thought of her "poor performance", her airport, how often it was happening there, just how "unimpressive" she was, how he was going to report her ...blah blah..
The upshot was that no contolling took place, and I got a nice view of Alitalia sliding underneath. This character's bluster and pomposity practically finished the poor girl off - her voice was actually trembling when she got back to me with a profuse apology- (He didn't get one though) - and made a very uncomfortable few moments become quite frightening.
Why do some people think that they are the arbiters of the air, and elect themselves judge and jury? - and why do they always open fire at the least propitious moment, thereby missing such a golden opportunity to keep their mouths firmly shut? And why can't they realise that the venue for such conversations is on the ground, using a telephone?
I wonder how he speaks to his wife ...................
This actually wasn't the unprofessional bit though - another gentleman from a very major European airline interrupted the controller (who, incidentally was sequencing me and an Alitalia on to parallel runways, and was beginning to get it sorted out) with an absolute diatribe of .. well, abuse frankly. He told her what he thought of her "poor performance", her airport, how often it was happening there, just how "unimpressive" she was, how he was going to report her ...blah blah..
The upshot was that no contolling took place, and I got a nice view of Alitalia sliding underneath. This character's bluster and pomposity practically finished the poor girl off - her voice was actually trembling when she got back to me with a profuse apology- (He didn't get one though) - and made a very uncomfortable few moments become quite frightening.
Why do some people think that they are the arbiters of the air, and elect themselves judge and jury? - and why do they always open fire at the least propitious moment, thereby missing such a golden opportunity to keep their mouths firmly shut? And why can't they realise that the venue for such conversations is on the ground, using a telephone?
I wonder how he speaks to his wife ...................
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When I learnt to fly the choices were:-
1. "Descend to (or climb to) ....." Which meant that within one minute you were expected to leave the altitude or flight level you had been maintaining, or
2. "When ready (or "At pilot's discretion"), descend and maintain ....."
It seemed pretty straight forward and I believe that this is the way it still is....
It still works for me.
1. "Descend to (or climb to) ....." Which meant that within one minute you were expected to leave the altitude or flight level you had been maintaining, or
2. "When ready (or "At pilot's discretion"), descend and maintain ....."
It seemed pretty straight forward and I believe that this is the way it still is....
It still works for me.
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amazing Unprofessionalism in Africa
Being a crewmember of the airline concerned, I would like to follow up on this. I really need the callsign to get to the bottom of this. Can anyoune help???
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GMC
I am glad to see that you intend to get to the bottom of this and stick to the original story. It would be interesting to hear the other side of our national airline.
In the original post a date is given and it was within a certain FIR. This would narrow it down somewhat.
Is this sector, somewhere in the middle of the flight, during the Captain rest period which would leave an F/O resposible for the alledged argument about descent! Could this possibly be?
In the original post a date is given and it was within a certain FIR. This would narrow it down somewhat.
Is this sector, somewhere in the middle of the flight, during the Captain rest period which would leave an F/O resposible for the alledged argument about descent! Could this possibly be?
Props are for boats!
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When I was operating King Airs in the Carib, I listened to many different airlines on Centermer and other frequencies. And 99.9% percent of the time ATC is good and attemps to plan ahead by asking traffic to descend or climb when on converging tracks, same level. And 99.9% of the time the crews comply politely with no quarms. Obviously the climb request sometimes cant be done due fuel implications, and its the luck of the draw who gets called first to do so or asked to descend. But hey these guys have a job to DO and someone has to give out there, not ATC.
In Australia theres alot of OCTA flying no radar only procedural. And its up to the Pilots in most cases to organise there own seperation. Common sense must prevail. Its Airmanship actually really, good airmanship should lead to good proffesionalism.
Regards
Sheep
In Australia theres alot of OCTA flying no radar only procedural. And its up to the Pilots in most cases to organise there own seperation. Common sense must prevail. Its Airmanship actually really, good airmanship should lead to good proffesionalism.
Regards
Sheep
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I can certainly remember the call sign, however I am loathe to post it on an open forum for fear of provoking a witch hunt. Rest assured the incident was certainly reported by us (MOR) and Niamey informed the SAA crew that they were also taking reporting action. The incident took place roughly half way along South African`s route, and we got the impression that the pilot we heard on the ATC/126.9 frequency was the captain acting as HP with the FO operating the radio for routine calls. I must stress this is pure conjecture based on gut instinct (eg the voice of the belligerent pilot seemed to come from an older man).