View Poll Results: At what age do you think airline pilots should forced to stop piloting?
No age limit subject to medicals and competency
752
54.22%
They should stop flying at 65
297
21.41%
They should stop flying at 60
317
22.86%
No opinion
21
1.51%
Voters: 1387. This poll is closed
The new law on "ageism" - where does it leave pilots and crew who want to carry on!?
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An interesting thread,
Another issue connected to it is that of CRM. If a captain moves to the right seat to continue for another couple of years, especially if he/she is a training captain with considerable time and experience under their belt, he could be the best asset a captain has, or conversely could be the worst nightmare! It's down to individuals I guess. Should be interesting to see when it happens. (My employer has the first one in a month or two)
PP
Another issue connected to it is that of CRM. If a captain moves to the right seat to continue for another couple of years, especially if he/she is a training captain with considerable time and experience under their belt, he could be the best asset a captain has, or conversely could be the worst nightmare! It's down to individuals I guess. Should be interesting to see when it happens. (My employer has the first one in a month or two)
PP
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ICAO! Bah humbug!!! 
Another organization like the UN.
Political job placement body, full of itself. Run by self-absorbed politicos with little 'real world' experience employing lots and lots and lots of doctorate level educated punters mostly from the third world.
Not to be confused with any regulatory authority. AND, certainly not to be confused with any progressive, forward thinking authority.
(snicker, snicker)
There. That's got that off.
Honestly, we surely must retire at some point. How else do we get to enjoy it? Do the things we've been dreaming of and planning for all these years. Whatever that magic age, enjoy life after aviation cause it sure as 'ell ain't much to enjoy these days.
IMHO
Another organization like the UN.
Political job placement body, full of itself. Run by self-absorbed politicos with little 'real world' experience employing lots and lots and lots of doctorate level educated punters mostly from the third world.
Not to be confused with any regulatory authority. AND, certainly not to be confused with any progressive, forward thinking authority.
(snicker, snicker)
There. That's got that off.
Honestly, we surely must retire at some point. How else do we get to enjoy it? Do the things we've been dreaming of and planning for all these years. Whatever that magic age, enjoy life after aviation cause it sure as 'ell ain't much to enjoy these days.
IMHO
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Dusk2Dawn, does this answer your questions?
Age Discrimination Law – The Slow Drag to 2006
The European Directive on Equal Treatment (Council Directive 2000/78/EC) was passed on the 27th of November 2000. The deadline for implementation by individual EU states is 2006.
Council Directive 2000/78/EC - Full Text.
Analysis of the EU Directive on Equal Treatment
Age Discrimination Law – The Slow Drag to 2006
The European Directive on Equal Treatment (Council Directive 2000/78/EC) was passed on the 27th of November 2000. The deadline for implementation by individual EU states is 2006.
Council Directive 2000/78/EC - Full Text.
Analysis of the EU Directive on Equal Treatment
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From another point of view.
My husband retired last year after a long career as a fast jet pilot in the Air Force, and latterly as a 747 Training Captain. He has always had many interests outside of aviation, and although he busier now, he seems to have regressed in years as he wallows in the pleasure from his various hobbies. We do have a share in an aerobatic aircraft so that he can occasionaly indulge himself in what he refers to as real flying, the reason for his initial interest in flying, as opposed to "truck driving" with hours spent with a "numb bum" in the cruise.
He has enjoyed his careers, but is now much more relaxed as he also has the time to spend with the children, and grandchildren. No more long trips, and the aftermath zombie moods!
On the other hand, our young nephew is a junior First Officer on the 747, and although he enjoys it, he also NEEDS the income from his job to cover his family expenses. Yes, my husband has been lucky careerwise, but he also saved for retirement, and so does not NEED to go to work for another income. So as he says, he thinks it unreasonable to prolong his numb bum syndrone at the expense of blocking a younger persons job prospect.
There are others who have not been as fortunate as us, and for those, I fully agree that they should be able to continue working. But for those in a similar situation as ourselves, enjoy the sailing, golfing, travelling, kitcar building, pub lunches, undisturbed romantic interludes etc etc., and LEAVE THE JOBS FOR THOSE WHO REALLY NEED THEM.
My husband retired last year after a long career as a fast jet pilot in the Air Force, and latterly as a 747 Training Captain. He has always had many interests outside of aviation, and although he busier now, he seems to have regressed in years as he wallows in the pleasure from his various hobbies. We do have a share in an aerobatic aircraft so that he can occasionaly indulge himself in what he refers to as real flying, the reason for his initial interest in flying, as opposed to "truck driving" with hours spent with a "numb bum" in the cruise.
He has enjoyed his careers, but is now much more relaxed as he also has the time to spend with the children, and grandchildren. No more long trips, and the aftermath zombie moods!
On the other hand, our young nephew is a junior First Officer on the 747, and although he enjoys it, he also NEEDS the income from his job to cover his family expenses. Yes, my husband has been lucky careerwise, but he also saved for retirement, and so does not NEED to go to work for another income. So as he says, he thinks it unreasonable to prolong his numb bum syndrone at the expense of blocking a younger persons job prospect.
There are others who have not been as fortunate as us, and for those, I fully agree that they should be able to continue working. But for those in a similar situation as ourselves, enjoy the sailing, golfing, travelling, kitcar building, pub lunches, undisturbed romantic interludes etc etc., and LEAVE THE JOBS FOR THOSE WHO REALLY NEED THEM.
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Stability Jane , Problem is that a lot of people aren´t in a similar situation to yourselves.....Those of us with 20 +yrs to go are looking at the current situation re:reducing pensions, increasing taxes, reducing state entitlements and worrying about our futures. Many of us currently working are paying your husbands´ pension now. With the demographic problems Europe is facing ,our generation will not have that luxury. We may have to work until 60-65 to enjoy retirement.....
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Stability Jane.
Was your husband 55,56, 60 or 65yrs old when he retired?
Good for him, he deserves every second!
The point of the mattter, is that some, do not have the good fortune of retiring and enjoying this well deserved benifit. The above mentioned age limitations, are a mixture of labor contracts and age limitations imposed by the various governing bodies. My point of view is that if, FAA or JAA or any other authority, stipulates the age at which one should hang up one's wings. Then that should be the limit, and not the one imposed by labor contracts or the various countries, that are presured into modifying this imposition.
If you are fit, why not have the benifit of continuing?
Was your husband 55,56, 60 or 65yrs old when he retired?
Good for him, he deserves every second!
The point of the mattter, is that some, do not have the good fortune of retiring and enjoying this well deserved benifit. The above mentioned age limitations, are a mixture of labor contracts and age limitations imposed by the various governing bodies. My point of view is that if, FAA or JAA or any other authority, stipulates the age at which one should hang up one's wings. Then that should be the limit, and not the one imposed by labor contracts or the various countries, that are presured into modifying this imposition.
If you are fit, why not have the benifit of continuing?
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Maxy101 and MPH, you both make very valid points, and I agree with them.
As I said, we have been very lucky, not just with the pension provision, but also with the small income we derive from savings, and the few investments we have made over the years.
There are many who have not been as fortunate, and provided they meet the medical, and skill criteria, they should be allowed to continue working. And, as Maxy101 said, because of changing conditions the younger ones will probably need to continue working for longer.
However, ONLY for those in a similar situation to ourselves, I would strongly recommend storing the working clothes. Hopefully it might also create some vacancies, and further, allow the younger people to get on the pension ladder sooner.
You can't take it with you!
As I said, we have been very lucky, not just with the pension provision, but also with the small income we derive from savings, and the few investments we have made over the years.
There are many who have not been as fortunate, and provided they meet the medical, and skill criteria, they should be allowed to continue working. And, as Maxy101 said, because of changing conditions the younger ones will probably need to continue working for longer.
However, ONLY for those in a similar situation to ourselves, I would strongly recommend storing the working clothes. Hopefully it might also create some vacancies, and further, allow the younger people to get on the pension ladder sooner.
You can't take it with you!
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With news that a 55 year old BA hostess has asked for her job back. It may be close to a "test case" since a goodly number of employers are entering into the spirit of the proposal - before it becomes law.
It is hoped that BA will see the writing on the wall. Thus giving experienced staff more time at work if they want it.
It is already thought that they will be hard pressed to produce a case against the EU directive when it comes into force. In fact, they just might not have a choice.
It is hoped that BA will see the writing on the wall. Thus giving experienced staff more time at work if they want it.
It is already thought that they will be hard pressed to produce a case against the EU directive when it comes into force. In fact, they just might not have a choice.
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PPruNe Pop
Now steady on, I too read that story, and I don't see much similarity between pilots continuing beyond age 55, and cabin crew continuing!!
As a professional pilot, I hold a qualification, and a licence to operate. I am required to DEMONSTRATE my competence in my job every 6 Months, and I am also subject to a stringent medical to determine my medical fitness for flying duties every 6 months!
It can easily be argued that age should not be a barrier to my continued employment!
Presumably that is why I could (if I wished) cease employment with my current employer at age 55, and find gainful employment with another airline!
Perhaps not the case for cabin crew!!
I see very little similarity to my position, and that of someone with no qualification, no licence, no 6 monthly competency check, and no medical!
If pilots want to carry on, let's argue that case, but be very careful about linking it to cabin crew
Now steady on, I too read that story, and I don't see much similarity between pilots continuing beyond age 55, and cabin crew continuing!!
As a professional pilot, I hold a qualification, and a licence to operate. I am required to DEMONSTRATE my competence in my job every 6 Months, and I am also subject to a stringent medical to determine my medical fitness for flying duties every 6 months!
It can easily be argued that age should not be a barrier to my continued employment!
Presumably that is why I could (if I wished) cease employment with my current employer at age 55, and find gainful employment with another airline!
Perhaps not the case for cabin crew!!
I see very little similarity to my position, and that of someone with no qualification, no licence, no 6 monthly competency check, and no medical!
If pilots want to carry on, let's argue that case, but be very careful about linking it to cabin crew
Last edited by Tandemrotor; 19th Jul 2003 at 19:10.
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TandemRotor
I was not attempting to offer an opinion, merely stating what was reported, the effect that might have, and how BA might react. It applies equally to other airlines too of course.
I am fully aware of the requirements of pilots and you are right, age should not be a barrier under the EU. What BA and other airlines, and the CAA, think about that is another matter - as I indicated at the beginning of the thread.
However, you seem to be distancing pilots from cabin crew, which is not the point. ALL workers. Cabin crew, ground crew, handlers, fuellers, C&E, dispatchers and anyone from all sections of the airline industry, from all walks of life even, will have the same options of employment continuance as anyone else. How that will be resolved in our industry in particular remains to be seen.
Please continue the debate. It has a long way to go yet.
I was not attempting to offer an opinion, merely stating what was reported, the effect that might have, and how BA might react. It applies equally to other airlines too of course.
I am fully aware of the requirements of pilots and you are right, age should not be a barrier under the EU. What BA and other airlines, and the CAA, think about that is another matter - as I indicated at the beginning of the thread.
However, you seem to be distancing pilots from cabin crew, which is not the point. ALL workers. Cabin crew, ground crew, handlers, fuellers, C&E, dispatchers and anyone from all sections of the airline industry, from all walks of life even, will have the same options of employment continuance as anyone else. How that will be resolved in our industry in particular remains to be seen.
Please continue the debate. It has a long way to go yet.
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Thank you for that common sense answer! As I don't 'love' any young ones, I propose doing my best not to be forcibly retired at just 55 when I have many years left of productive (and safe) aviation left in me! And may I ask from the benefit of what experience do you speak?
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Cabin crew in Oz have no mandatory retirement age either.
But our 'competencies' as you say, are tested every 6 months. Fail your Emergency Procedures, and you don't have a job.
We are grateful that you fly competently, but when the sh
t hits the fan- it's hard to evacuate a jumbo by yourself! 
But our 'competencies' as you say, are tested every 6 months. Fail your Emergency Procedures, and you don't have a job.
We are grateful that you fly competently, but when the sh
t hits the fan- it's hard to evacuate a jumbo by yourself!
PPRuNe Playmate of the Month
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I thought the following extract from a paper presently in preparation for circulation at work might be of interest:
The DTI has issued a further consultation paper on its proposals for outlawing age discrimination so as to comply with the European Employment Directive 2000/78/EC. Legislation implementing the Government's proposals will come into force on 1 October 2006.
The Government intends to outlaw direct and indirect discrimination on the basis of age in employment and vocational training. Retirement ages that employers set for employees will be unlawful, unless objectively justified. The Government is, however, consulting on whether the legislation should provide for employers, exceptionally, to be able to justify mandatory retirement ages if their particular circumstances made it appropriate and necessary. The Government is also consulting on whether to have a default age of 70 at or after which employers could require employees to retire without having to justify their decision. It should be noted, however, that the Government is not committed to including either of these proposals in its final legislation.
The Government intends to outlaw direct and indirect discrimination on the basis of age in employment and vocational training. Retirement ages that employers set for employees will be unlawful, unless objectively justified. The Government is, however, consulting on whether the legislation should provide for employers, exceptionally, to be able to justify mandatory retirement ages if their particular circumstances made it appropriate and necessary. The Government is also consulting on whether to have a default age of 70 at or after which employers could require employees to retire without having to justify their decision. It should be noted, however, that the Government is not committed to including either of these proposals in its final legislation.
Grandpa Aerotart
An interesting article on where 'age 60' first appeared!
Age 60 and that moron Quesada
Having had to defend, from 'management' and a grossly dishonest young Captain, one of my pilots, a Captain, who had passed 60 in a international corporate jet operation I can assure you that it only applies (age 60) to Part 121/RPT style ops.
I'm 41 and while I probably will be able to afford to retire at 55 I reserve the right to continue for as long as I'm able to from a medical/standards point of view or for as long as it's still fun.
I can't see myself wanting to go much past 60 no matter how much fun I'm still having...if for no other reason than there are other things I'd like to do as well...long distance sailing for one...and I want to do those while I'm still fit enough...flying wise I'll just hop into my Bonanza when the mood takes.
Chuck.
Age 60 and that moron Quesada
Having had to defend, from 'management' and a grossly dishonest young Captain, one of my pilots, a Captain, who had passed 60 in a international corporate jet operation I can assure you that it only applies (age 60) to Part 121/RPT style ops.
I'm 41 and while I probably will be able to afford to retire at 55 I reserve the right to continue for as long as I'm able to from a medical/standards point of view or for as long as it's still fun.
I can't see myself wanting to go much past 60 no matter how much fun I'm still having...if for no other reason than there are other things I'd like to do as well...long distance sailing for one...and I want to do those while I'm still fit enough...flying wise I'll just hop into my Bonanza when the mood takes.
Chuck.
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FAA Part 135 Consolation Prize
No age limit to fly Part 135 air taxi, air cargo.
Also, there's no age limit for Flight Engineers at Part 121 air carriers. Some captains approaching age 60 are pursuing F/E vacancies on the few remaining 74-classics, DC8s and 72s still in operation.
Also, there's no age limit for Flight Engineers at Part 121 air carriers. Some captains approaching age 60 are pursuing F/E vacancies on the few remaining 74-classics, DC8s and 72s still in operation.
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MachD. Obviously not the same planet as you.
If you want to work until you are 60 or whatever, why try to join a company that stipulates an earlier retirment age, then if you get a job with them, moan about the retirment age that you knew about before you applied.
I guess you must be the sort of person that applys to join a men only club then complain that there are no women.
If you want to work until you are 60 or whatever, why try to join a company that stipulates an earlier retirment age, then if you get a job with them, moan about the retirment age that you knew about before you applied.
I guess you must be the sort of person that applys to join a men only club then complain that there are no women.