Age 60 rule status?
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Tampa Florida USA
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Age 60
I find it quite incredible, that some of the former contributor's feel that those who complain about the older pilots being 'forced' to retire at age 60 are supposedly being selfish.
You all personally benefited from other pilots retiring ahead of you,but now you want those junior to you to not benefit in the same way, you feel that you are 'special' and you shouldn't have to comply with the same rules that moved you up.
You want the choice to continue flying? rent an aircraft, fly for a non-sked, whatever. I liked the idea of a retiree being given the option to return at the bottom of the FO'S list at first, except that would deny some very deserving young pilot his chance for many years.
At my airline we have furloughed a substantial number of pilots and shrunk steadily since 9-11 Prior to that date I had been awarded a Captains seat finally after waiting 14 years. I lost my award without even going to training with the cut-backs, I am now starting my 17th year with this company and I cannot hold a
left seat anywhere in our system on any aircraft even on reserve
And yet most of the Captains I fly with have not had to wait even a third of the time myself and others of my seniority have,and there are thousands of other pilots in similar predicaments that do not deserve to have their aspirations, and what they truly deserve put on a further hold, that was induced initially by 9-11
and hard economic times.
But now we're supposed to swallow a further delay imposed by the pure selfish greed of those who don't know when to move on.
But this forty year old 'young buck' only speaks for himself.
You all personally benefited from other pilots retiring ahead of you,but now you want those junior to you to not benefit in the same way, you feel that you are 'special' and you shouldn't have to comply with the same rules that moved you up.
You want the choice to continue flying? rent an aircraft, fly for a non-sked, whatever. I liked the idea of a retiree being given the option to return at the bottom of the FO'S list at first, except that would deny some very deserving young pilot his chance for many years.
At my airline we have furloughed a substantial number of pilots and shrunk steadily since 9-11 Prior to that date I had been awarded a Captains seat finally after waiting 14 years. I lost my award without even going to training with the cut-backs, I am now starting my 17th year with this company and I cannot hold a
left seat anywhere in our system on any aircraft even on reserve
And yet most of the Captains I fly with have not had to wait even a third of the time myself and others of my seniority have,and there are thousands of other pilots in similar predicaments that do not deserve to have their aspirations, and what they truly deserve put on a further hold, that was induced initially by 9-11
and hard economic times.
But now we're supposed to swallow a further delay imposed by the pure selfish greed of those who don't know when to move on.
But this forty year old 'young buck' only speaks for himself.
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Carbon Life Form, my brother in law spent about 16 years on the engineers seat and then 3 or 4 more on the second pilots seat before making first pilot. I never heard him complain once. He once told me that the main requirement for getting senior was your birthday and the state of the economy when and if you got hired. Getting hired in the time frame he did was also quite a feat, not at all like getting hired in the 80's or 90's when massive amounts of pilots were retained.
You state that you do not deserve to have your aspirations and what you "TRULY DESERVE" put on hold. Thats quite an arrogant statement from someone who was hired at an inexperienced 23 years old. My brother in law also told me that the only pilots that get truly senior are those inexperienced youngsters hired at 23 but at the start of a hiring boom. The more experienced older aviators that get hired have a much shorter career and less senior career and are outlasted by the youngsters.
I think this is really a generational thing. The younger generation has this sense of entitlement that I have never quite understood.
If you want to place blame on someone, don't do it on your fellow aviator, but place it on your parents for your birthday and whoever is leading the country for the state of economic affairs.
This goofy trip we call life is so very short, maybe you should relax and enjoy it before it is over. I would also like to add I hope the state of the economy turns around quickly and that you regain your first pilots seat.
Good luck.
You state that you do not deserve to have your aspirations and what you "TRULY DESERVE" put on hold. Thats quite an arrogant statement from someone who was hired at an inexperienced 23 years old. My brother in law also told me that the only pilots that get truly senior are those inexperienced youngsters hired at 23 but at the start of a hiring boom. The more experienced older aviators that get hired have a much shorter career and less senior career and are outlasted by the youngsters.
I think this is really a generational thing. The younger generation has this sense of entitlement that I have never quite understood.
If you want to place blame on someone, don't do it on your fellow aviator, but place it on your parents for your birthday and whoever is leading the country for the state of economic affairs.
This goofy trip we call life is so very short, maybe you should relax and enjoy it before it is over. I would also like to add I hope the state of the economy turns around quickly and that you regain your first pilots seat.
Good luck.
Join Date: May 2002
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Carbon Life Form
I think you may be coming into this debate half way down the track. There are many of us here who joined when retirement was at 65 but were forced to retire at 60. We LOST five years at the top end that could have made an enormous difference to our final pension etc. You are simply being asked to work another five years, according to your planning, (60), you will now reap the same benefit, if you work to 65, that we all lost. Who is being selfish?
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Actually, dudly I was hired at 24 and was a Flight Engineer for four
years, and then a reserve FO for three, working up to 767 FO currently.
Your brother was hired in a different era, where everyone expected to upgrade at the glacial rate he experienced, the environment was much different and pay and conditions were far superior <relatively>
Notwithstanding his achievement, simply because more pilots
were hired in the 80's and 90's does not mean those pilots are
any less capable.
Contrary to your statement I did not say 'I do not deserve to have my aspirations and what I truly deserve put on hold'
If you reread my submission it says there are thousands of other pilots in similar predicaments that do not deserve to have their aspirations, and what they truly deserve put on a further hold, by
the greed of others who benefited from the same law they want to change.
I suspect you moved up
at a much more satisfactory rate than your brother or pilots of my generation at my Airline.
A common thread with those that criticize myself and my peers is
indeed a much more rapid rise through the ranks. Perhaps it's not me that feels this sense of 'entitlement'
Life, indeed is short dudly.
years, and then a reserve FO for three, working up to 767 FO currently.
Your brother was hired in a different era, where everyone expected to upgrade at the glacial rate he experienced, the environment was much different and pay and conditions were far superior <relatively>
Notwithstanding his achievement, simply because more pilots
were hired in the 80's and 90's does not mean those pilots are
any less capable.
Contrary to your statement I did not say 'I do not deserve to have my aspirations and what I truly deserve put on hold'
If you reread my submission it says there are thousands of other pilots in similar predicaments that do not deserve to have their aspirations, and what they truly deserve put on a further hold, by
the greed of others who benefited from the same law they want to change.
I suspect you moved up
at a much more satisfactory rate than your brother or pilots of my generation at my Airline.
A common thread with those that criticize myself and my peers is
indeed a much more rapid rise through the ranks. Perhaps it's not me that feels this sense of 'entitlement'
Life, indeed is short dudly.
Join Date: Mar 2000
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Those who bit@h and moan because they do not 'move up' as quickly as they think is appropriate, have an alternative...they can quit and join another company where their prospects might be brighter.
IF they stay with their original company, they will just have to wait their turn, like it or not...and many won't.
Aw....poor babies
IF they stay with their original company, they will just have to wait their turn, like it or not...and many won't.
Aw....poor babies
Join Date: Jan 2003
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In the Philippines, the authorities have already gone over the age issue. They passed legislation 5 years ago (1998) allowing pilots over 65 to fly, but DOMESTIC ROUTES ONLY. Wanna know why? Because PAL then was on strike and the only way they could get their planes off the ground with any measure of safety (as they only had a handful of ab-initio pilots then working for them inside) was to reactivate the RETIRED PILOTS!
Sure, the retired guys could still fly domestic up to the age of 65. But what about those guys flying international? Will they be "demoted" and returned to domestic flying after reaching 60? Wouldn't that upset the balance of new guys coming in? Maybe ALPA could use this as a case study for resolving this issue.
Sure, the retired guys could still fly domestic up to the age of 65. But what about those guys flying international? Will they be "demoted" and returned to domestic flying after reaching 60? Wouldn't that upset the balance of new guys coming in? Maybe ALPA could use this as a case study for resolving this issue.
Join Date: May 2002
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In the UK, provided that you pass the medical, you can fly commercially to age 65. Many companies have earlier mandatory retirement dates typically 55 or 60 tied to their company pension schemes.
Under ICAO treaty between virtually every country in the world, pilots licences of visiting or overflying commercial aircraft are acceptable up to age 65.
Unfortunately, the French will not allow Captains to fly over or into France, over the age of 60. This is due to pressure from unions on their government, and the way their state pension scheme rules are constructed.
The result, for a UK Captain, is that you become virtually useless to the average major UK airline which obviously needs its crews to be able transit France. You are therefore unemployable. Pilot employment contracts normally state that retirement will be at 60 (although BA has 55).
As from December 2006 it will be illegal to compel anybody to retire purely due to age alone, under age discrimination directives agreed by all EU leaders at the EU summit in Berlin last November. The French were at the same summit in Berlin, and are signed up to the same date in Dec 2006. If they fail to comply, the French government will find themselves facing the Europian Commission at the EU Court, and every pilot (and others affected) will be able to sue for loss of earnings and damages from Dec 2006.
Under ICAO treaty between virtually every country in the world, pilots licences of visiting or overflying commercial aircraft are acceptable up to age 65.
Unfortunately, the French will not allow Captains to fly over or into France, over the age of 60. This is due to pressure from unions on their government, and the way their state pension scheme rules are constructed.
The result, for a UK Captain, is that you become virtually useless to the average major UK airline which obviously needs its crews to be able transit France. You are therefore unemployable. Pilot employment contracts normally state that retirement will be at 60 (although BA has 55).
As from December 2006 it will be illegal to compel anybody to retire purely due to age alone, under age discrimination directives agreed by all EU leaders at the EU summit in Berlin last November. The French were at the same summit in Berlin, and are signed up to the same date in Dec 2006. If they fail to comply, the French government will find themselves facing the Europian Commission at the EU Court, and every pilot (and others affected) will be able to sue for loss of earnings and damages from Dec 2006.
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Carbon Life Form, actually I was in the Fighter Pilot community most of my working life. I do have several family members that went the airline route however. I guess those that went to the airlines tied their star to a particular company and hung on for the ride. Being an employee is always tough when some shyster management type self destructs the company due to his ineptitude. You are just along for the ride and have not much say other than to quit. It seems the airline biz has an over abundance of the shyster type managers.
Nobody has come up with the situation whereby a Captain who wants to retire at 60 ( or 55), because he's had enough of the tribulations of the Airline business, is prevented from continuing to fly, say in GA.
I had the problem of being offered a job as a Be 320 captain, until they realised I was TOO OLD !! As someone has already mentioned, I could not fly over France.
That was 4 years ago.
I now spend my time teaching aerobatics (most of the time) and doing long distance walks ( 200+ miles) and anything else that keeps the blood pumping.
It's got nothing to do with supposed deteriorating health. Its all to do with how quickly Jacques can get down to his yacht in St.Trop !
Sleeve.
I had the problem of being offered a job as a Be 320 captain, until they realised I was TOO OLD !! As someone has already mentioned, I could not fly over France.
That was 4 years ago.
I now spend my time teaching aerobatics (most of the time) and doing long distance walks ( 200+ miles) and anything else that keeps the blood pumping.
It's got nothing to do with supposed deteriorating health. Its all to do with how quickly Jacques can get down to his yacht in St.Trop !
Sleeve.
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Sleeve Wing
Were do I sign? Sounds bloody marvelous to me! I guess even us old duffers can still cut the mustard, keep the blood pumping and the marbles clicking? – and will continue to be able to do so for very many more years – eh? (insh-allah). Pity about all these blunty, politicians (here on Pprune and in Paris/Brussels/Strasbourg) who reckon we’re as useless and pathetic as they are!
Poor old Jaques, eh, sitting around at home (or on the boat), thinking he'd got one over the "rosbifs" and waiting patiently to die!!
Were do I sign? Sounds bloody marvelous to me! I guess even us old duffers can still cut the mustard, keep the blood pumping and the marbles clicking? – and will continue to be able to do so for very many more years – eh? (insh-allah). Pity about all these blunty, politicians (here on Pprune and in Paris/Brussels/Strasbourg) who reckon we’re as useless and pathetic as they are!
Poor old Jaques, eh, sitting around at home (or on the boat), thinking he'd got one over the "rosbifs" and waiting patiently to die!!
Anotherpost75
'Spose "being as old as the hostie you feel" is a bit tacky really but, seriously, I just didn't want and wasn't ready to suddenly pack up doing what I'd wanted to do since about the age of 7 or 8.
Sure I feel for the young guys waiting impatiently in the righthand seat but why should that stop me leaving an Airline and getting a GA job. By the time 60 comes, I'd say he's welcome to it !!
Just because some Johnnie Foreigner, or anyone else for that matter, who's made a small fortune out of his country's airline, wants to spend it doing something else shouldn't have any influence on the rest of us.
If we're fortunately still in good health and wish to continue, albeit in some other facet of the business, the Medical should be the only criteria.
I personally had had enough of the " heavy" stuff. All I wanted was to fly somebody's nice turbo-twin now and again; I just needed to fly for me for a change and maybe make a few bob on the side.
I've actually been lucky enough, having put together a few lapsed ratings before I retired, to now be involved in all kinds of light aircraft flying, from MTP, to instructing and examining, to film work. Most rewarding.It's just that I would have liked the choice.
Rgds, Sleeve.
'Spose "being as old as the hostie you feel" is a bit tacky really but, seriously, I just didn't want and wasn't ready to suddenly pack up doing what I'd wanted to do since about the age of 7 or 8.
Sure I feel for the young guys waiting impatiently in the righthand seat but why should that stop me leaving an Airline and getting a GA job. By the time 60 comes, I'd say he's welcome to it !!
Just because some Johnnie Foreigner, or anyone else for that matter, who's made a small fortune out of his country's airline, wants to spend it doing something else shouldn't have any influence on the rest of us.
If we're fortunately still in good health and wish to continue, albeit in some other facet of the business, the Medical should be the only criteria.
I personally had had enough of the " heavy" stuff. All I wanted was to fly somebody's nice turbo-twin now and again; I just needed to fly for me for a change and maybe make a few bob on the side.
I've actually been lucky enough, having put together a few lapsed ratings before I retired, to now be involved in all kinds of light aircraft flying, from MTP, to instructing and examining, to film work. Most rewarding.It's just that I would have liked the choice.
Rgds, Sleeve.
