AC Pilots may be getting another big hit
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I quote from the “The Gazette” June 4, 2003
“In forcing the merger of the country’s two national carriers, the Federal Government pushed $6 Billion on to AC debt load rather then face the bankruptcy of CDN. Then it insisted AC could not lay off CDN employees, thus creating a single airline with impossibly bloated staff and management.
The Federal Government has been hanging back, hoping it will not have to deal with the political fallout of a collapse: with travelers stranded all over the world, the country’s air-transport net-work in tatters and AC employees stuck with a pension plan with a $1.3 billion deficit”
“In forcing the merger of the country’s two national carriers, the Federal Government pushed $6 Billion on to AC debt load rather then face the bankruptcy of CDN. Then it insisted AC could not lay off CDN employees, thus creating a single airline with impossibly bloated staff and management.
The Federal Government has been hanging back, hoping it will not have to deal with the political fallout of a collapse: with travelers stranded all over the world, the country’s air-transport net-work in tatters and AC employees stuck with a pension plan with a $1.3 billion deficit”
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Thanks to ex330 for his lucid and factual post however, the debate concerning the financial viability of Canadian Airlines is not relevant at this point. The first seniority list provided by Mr. Mitchnick included reference to the operational state of Canadian prior to the merger. Subsequently, the CIRB determined that his should have no bearing on the formation of the seniority list. Mr. Lordon went further by supplying specific guidelines for the development of the next list, and specifically directed that the Canadian’s financial circumstances should not be a consideration.
The CIRB based its decision to dispose of the Mitchnick award on the following items:
Later in the document, Mr. Lordon clearly states that the only viable solution is one based on ratios, not date of hire. Now we have the foundation for the Keller award, an award that appears to deviate substantially from the direction given in Mr. Lordon’s decision.
An interesting item, very close to the top of Mr. Lordon’s document, is Air Canada’s predisposition to immediately enhance the remuneration of the Canadian pilots to bring the up to par with their Air Canada counterparts. This was negotiated between the Company and ALPA (with the encouragement of ACPA). This expeditious enhancement of the Canadian pilots’ financial fortunes now is turned against the rest of the Air Canada pilots as Mr. Lordon points out that since all the pilots were being paid the same prior to ACPA becoming the sole bargaining representatives, that differential in pay rates should have no bearing on developing the subsequent seniority list.
From this point on, and this is at the beginning or the document, the decision appears to diverge from Mr. Lordon’s directions and revamp the rations in such a way as to disregard the prior status and positions of the Air Canada and Canadian pilots and merge the lists on arbitrary aircraft “groupings”.
There is a bounty of deviations to supply a basis to generate an appeal and thus, it appears likely that the work of Mr. Keller and committee is destined to join that of Mr. Mitchnick in the dustbin of failed Labour solutions. It does not help that both the committee nominees are filing dissenting opinions. We will be revisiting this list for some years to come. In the meantime, let us hope that we have an airline to apply the list to!
The CIRB based its decision to dispose of the Mitchnick award on the following items:
- the arbitrator’s conclusion, that the seniority rights of the Canadian pilots should be devalued as the result of the economic condition of an employer, is wrong and should be rejected as the governing principle for seniority integration under the Code
- the award contravened specific terms of the arbitration protocol
- the arbitration process was flawed and its deficiencies led to a miscarriage of justice
the construction of the actual seniority list was mishandled and the ‘variable ratio’ imposed was extreme and disproportionate even in light of the arbitrator’s own assessment of the equities - in any event, and in the alternative, no matter any other outcome of these proceedings, the Board should refer the ratio formulation found in the award to a panel, or another adjudicator, for review and correction subject to directions from the Board.1
Later in the document, Mr. Lordon clearly states that the only viable solution is one based on ratios, not date of hire. Now we have the foundation for the Keller award, an award that appears to deviate substantially from the direction given in Mr. Lordon’s decision.
An interesting item, very close to the top of Mr. Lordon’s document, is Air Canada’s predisposition to immediately enhance the remuneration of the Canadian pilots to bring the up to par with their Air Canada counterparts. This was negotiated between the Company and ALPA (with the encouragement of ACPA). This expeditious enhancement of the Canadian pilots’ financial fortunes now is turned against the rest of the Air Canada pilots as Mr. Lordon points out that since all the pilots were being paid the same prior to ACPA becoming the sole bargaining representatives, that differential in pay rates should have no bearing on developing the subsequent seniority list.
the collective agreements of the two groups were substantially similar: [124] The above agreement dated march 30, 2000, brought Canadian wage rates and benefits in respect of similar equipment type and active pilot status at Canadian to the levels of wage rates and benefits at Air Canada. One consideration urged on the Board in respect of the present matters was the enormous benefit conferred upon Canadian pilots by LOU 65. An examination of it shows that it was an arms length, freely concluded, collective agreement modification and extension. Importantly, it was concluded with the then independently represented ALPA bargaining unit. It was concluded well before the matter was referred to the arbitrator, although it does appear that the possible eventual consolidation of the separate bargaining units was contemplated at the time the LOU was signed. On March 30, 2000, although the merger between the airlines had commenced, the pilot bargaining units in question were still separately certified and operating quite independently. This situation was not altered until May 19, 2000 application by ALPA for a single employer declaration and the consequent Board orders. These included the August 3, 2000 order setting out the single employer declaration and that of October 17, 2000 declaring a single consolidated pilot bargaining unit to be the appropriate bargaining unit and giving Board approval to the process for determining consequential seniority issues set out in the June 29, 2000 agreement. However, it is clear that as of the date the matter was referred to arbitration by the parties in anticipation of a Board single employer declaration and bargaining unit consolidation order, the negotiated collective agreement rights of the two groups of pilots had become substantially similar, their collective agreement seniority rights were independent and conflicting and the Canadian pilots had expressly, in LOU 65, continued as a bargaining unit to pursue an independent course and had expressly chosen not to accept the seniority and end-tailing provisions of Article 22 of the Air Canada - ACPA agreement.”2
There is a bounty of deviations to supply a basis to generate an appeal and thus, it appears likely that the work of Mr. Keller and committee is destined to join that of Mr. Mitchnick in the dustbin of failed Labour solutions. It does not help that both the committee nominees are filing dissenting opinions. We will be revisiting this list for some years to come. In the meantime, let us hope that we have an airline to apply the list to!
1 Canadian Industrial Relations Board – Reason for decision -10 July, 2002
2 ..In the matter of Seniority Integration – Mr. MB Keller – Page 3 -16 June, 2003
2 ..In the matter of Seniority Integration – Mr. MB Keller – Page 3 -16 June, 2003
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'LET ME TELL YOU A FACT. When Canadian airlines management asked their pilot group to make concessions during their financial troubles, the answer was NO."
Gosh 330, I was with Canadian and I took 23% pay cut back there somewhere. Don't tell me I was the only one!
I was going to leave it at that but "fools rush in" as Elvis sang, and I must be one.
Under the new list I find myself just below an AC pilot who was hired 4 years after me. Under the old one it was 14 years so it's quite an improvement. I wasn't complaining however as I have learned over the years that there are much more important things in life. I know of what I speak because I ended up on the wrong end of a seniority arbitration for the first time in 1986 as an EPA pilot when CPair bought us. EPA wasn't in financial difficulty so it seems that that isn't always a factor. I might have ended up with date of hire but I might also have got cancer. Excuse me if I seem a little whimsical but I have seen a close cousin, age 48, die of that disease recently and it has reordered my sense of priorities somewhat.
Do you ever wonder what lies at the root of these disputes? Our spokesmen talk about preffered vacation and access to larger equipment but I think it all comes down to ego. As pilots we have big egos and it seems that we can only measure our sense of self worth relative to other pilots rather than the 95% of the world's population we are better off than.
So is the new list fair? Unlike you I have no idea. What I do know is that we are lucky enough to live in a country that has a system for resolving these disputes. It has produced a finding which one side thinks is fair and the other regards as a travesty and this was predictable. The process is not finished and will probably go on for years because, at it's heart it is an advocacy process and the lawyers will always assure us that there is a chance. We are a retirement scheme for them.
Time to stop rambling I guess. I would finish by saying to my AC compatriots that they should not be too upset. Since first getting dinged in 1986 I have enjoyed life immensely. If you are healthy and do not, then this will probably help.
Gosh 330, I was with Canadian and I took 23% pay cut back there somewhere. Don't tell me I was the only one!
I was going to leave it at that but "fools rush in" as Elvis sang, and I must be one.
Under the new list I find myself just below an AC pilot who was hired 4 years after me. Under the old one it was 14 years so it's quite an improvement. I wasn't complaining however as I have learned over the years that there are much more important things in life. I know of what I speak because I ended up on the wrong end of a seniority arbitration for the first time in 1986 as an EPA pilot when CPair bought us. EPA wasn't in financial difficulty so it seems that that isn't always a factor. I might have ended up with date of hire but I might also have got cancer. Excuse me if I seem a little whimsical but I have seen a close cousin, age 48, die of that disease recently and it has reordered my sense of priorities somewhat.
Do you ever wonder what lies at the root of these disputes? Our spokesmen talk about preffered vacation and access to larger equipment but I think it all comes down to ego. As pilots we have big egos and it seems that we can only measure our sense of self worth relative to other pilots rather than the 95% of the world's population we are better off than.
So is the new list fair? Unlike you I have no idea. What I do know is that we are lucky enough to live in a country that has a system for resolving these disputes. It has produced a finding which one side thinks is fair and the other regards as a travesty and this was predictable. The process is not finished and will probably go on for years because, at it's heart it is an advocacy process and the lawyers will always assure us that there is a chance. We are a retirement scheme for them.
Time to stop rambling I guess. I would finish by saying to my AC compatriots that they should not be too upset. Since first getting dinged in 1986 I have enjoyed life immensely. If you are healthy and do not, then this will probably help.
quidquid excusatio prandium pro
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Well said Mulligan, you don’t have to be an idiot to be a pilot, but it sure helps.
As someone else very wisely said, if all you hand-wringing cry-babies north of the border don’t get your sh@t together in a jiffy, there will be no airline to apply a seniority list to.
As someone else very wisely said, if all you hand-wringing cry-babies north of the border don’t get your sh@t together in a jiffy, there will be no airline to apply a seniority list to.
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It is a good thing for US Airlines (except may be Southwest and Jet Blue, I am not sure) that the US Government injected billions in help (which by the way Canadians airlines only received 200 milions can.) because you big braggart south would be all bankrupt.
You are the most protectionist country in the world and you brag about free enteprise as long it doesn't bite you back...
You are the most protectionist country in the world and you brag about free enteprise as long it doesn't bite you back...
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>>You are the most protectionist country in the world and you brag about free enteprise as long it doesn't bite you back...
Don't think we need anybody to protect us from the Canadiens, they are doing a good job of self-destructing on their own...
Don't think we need anybody to protect us from the Canadiens, they are doing a good job of self-destructing on their own...
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I have no love for AC. I worked for a couple of companys that were shut down by AC. AC has always run at a loss so they could under cut the competition. Just try to get a cheap seat on a flight where only AC fly out of, then you will see how they are only out to have a monopoly. They used to run a flight at the same time as Canjet, at a lower rate than Canjet, and all their other flights to the same destination were much higher priced. They had been told that they couldn't do this because it was against anti monopoly laws, but it was too late. Canjet went bust.
The sooner AC gets out of business the sooner a real company like WJ can take over, and the flying public will enjoy reasonable airfare, and the tax payer won't need to worry about another bailout.
The sooner AC gets out of business the sooner a real company like WJ can take over, and the flying public will enjoy reasonable airfare, and the tax payer won't need to worry about another bailout.
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Doesn’t take much research to show that Air Canada has been suckling at the governmental teets for a very long time, and probably qualifies as one of the most coddled, politically protected flying clubs in the history western aviation, reminiscent of the grossly inefficient Euro-carriers of yore. (Sabena springs to mind.)
The question is, will it be the pilots or the bean-counters who finally bury it?
The question is, will it be the pilots or the bean-counters who finally bury it?
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IMHO Air Canada's employees attitude will make or break the company in the long run. The competion in Canada is growing stronger while AC is struggling. Pax now have more choices and less patience for poor attitude .
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By the way, tell me when the Canadian Government has given AC any money? Of course, Canadian did not get anything from the government when it was still flying.
As far as this government is concerned they have no plan to bail out AC but they already have a plan for its liquidation and afterwards...This is no rumor. it is coming from officials at Transport Canada (like close to the minister-idiot) and Members of Parliament.
Remarks made by some from the USA are totally unfounded. No surprise when we know they gobbled up the propaganda from Bush and CNN. Of course US majors are the perfect examples of extremely well run Cie with AA, United, USAIR and Delta (to name a few) that are on the verge of Chap 11, in it or barely out of it. Once again, they would all be in Chap 11 if not for the billions the US gov. gave them. Yes, of course, for you, it is not taxpayers money and they never cried in front of the US gov to get it.
As far as this government is concerned they have no plan to bail out AC but they already have a plan for its liquidation and afterwards...This is no rumor. it is coming from officials at Transport Canada (like close to the minister-idiot) and Members of Parliament.
Remarks made by some from the USA are totally unfounded. No surprise when we know they gobbled up the propaganda from Bush and CNN. Of course US majors are the perfect examples of extremely well run Cie with AA, United, USAIR and Delta (to name a few) that are on the verge of Chap 11, in it or barely out of it. Once again, they would all be in Chap 11 if not for the billions the US gov. gave them. Yes, of course, for you, it is not taxpayers money and they never cried in front of the US gov to get it.
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It's sad to see that thousands and thousands of people's lives lie in waiting for the outcome of this...
MR. ACA pilot, don't forget that many others will lose their jobs too (as a result of the seniority list megers) with most likely more time under their belts with ACA than you.
Pilots need to look at the big picture here. Its not just your job in jeapordy, its the mech that fixes your plane, the groomer who cleans, the catering guy, the fueler, the ticket agent, the taxi driver etc.....
I think if ACA goes down because of Pilot's selfish wants, the Pilot as a profession will lose the credibility and respect it has gained over many decades. I can see little old ladies slapping their captain on the face saying "shame on you!"......
TG
I've gotta jump at this one, TG, cause you've hit on the crux of the matter with your post.
The major problem with AC is exactly the "thousands of people" you refer to. If it weren't for the dozens of hangers-on to every AC flight that goes airborne we'd be in fine shape, thank you very much. I will single out maintenance personnel as undeserving of the brush with which you paint them - they are professionals who have devoted a lifetime to excellence in their field and are bearing the brunt of the unskilled masses the same as the pilots are.
Honestly, shake your head, man! We have lead ramp attendants making more money - like 1.5 to 1.75 times as much as FIRST OFFICERS for %$#@ sakes. They make 2 to 3 times as much as their most senior counterpart at any of our competitiors. This scenario is played out many times over, be it flight attendants, customer service agents (there's an oxymoron if I ever saw one), or any other manner of un-skilled, under-educated, un-motivated, bitchy and lazy-assed "entitled" morons roaming these premises.
Our skilled labour groups, chiefly the pilots and the maintainers, subsidize this ridiculous compensation of the un-skilled. Fercrysakes, the fact that we actually HAVE such a thing as a "lead" ramp attendant outta give pause. Check last month's issue of "Horizons" - there's a guy in YVR celebrating 40 years with AC. He's a friggin' "lead" stockkeeper, of all things! Can anybody out there tell me if they've ever heard of a stockkeeper with 40 years seniority? If so, has he made "lead" yet? Honestly...somebody induce some reality, here, will ya? If it did nothing but sort out this pile of horse dung, liquidation would be well worth the effort.
Power set MCT against incredible drag,
skidoo
MR. ACA pilot, don't forget that many others will lose their jobs too (as a result of the seniority list megers) with most likely more time under their belts with ACA than you.
Pilots need to look at the big picture here. Its not just your job in jeapordy, its the mech that fixes your plane, the groomer who cleans, the catering guy, the fueler, the ticket agent, the taxi driver etc.....
I think if ACA goes down because of Pilot's selfish wants, the Pilot as a profession will lose the credibility and respect it has gained over many decades. I can see little old ladies slapping their captain on the face saying "shame on you!"......
TG
I've gotta jump at this one, TG, cause you've hit on the crux of the matter with your post.
The major problem with AC is exactly the "thousands of people" you refer to. If it weren't for the dozens of hangers-on to every AC flight that goes airborne we'd be in fine shape, thank you very much. I will single out maintenance personnel as undeserving of the brush with which you paint them - they are professionals who have devoted a lifetime to excellence in their field and are bearing the brunt of the unskilled masses the same as the pilots are.
Honestly, shake your head, man! We have lead ramp attendants making more money - like 1.5 to 1.75 times as much as FIRST OFFICERS for %$#@ sakes. They make 2 to 3 times as much as their most senior counterpart at any of our competitiors. This scenario is played out many times over, be it flight attendants, customer service agents (there's an oxymoron if I ever saw one), or any other manner of un-skilled, under-educated, un-motivated, bitchy and lazy-assed "entitled" morons roaming these premises.
Our skilled labour groups, chiefly the pilots and the maintainers, subsidize this ridiculous compensation of the un-skilled. Fercrysakes, the fact that we actually HAVE such a thing as a "lead" ramp attendant outta give pause. Check last month's issue of "Horizons" - there's a guy in YVR celebrating 40 years with AC. He's a friggin' "lead" stockkeeper, of all things! Can anybody out there tell me if they've ever heard of a stockkeeper with 40 years seniority? If so, has he made "lead" yet? Honestly...somebody induce some reality, here, will ya? If it did nothing but sort out this pile of horse dung, liquidation would be well worth the effort.
Power set MCT against incredible drag,
skidoo
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Quote [This scenario is played out many times over, be it flight attendants, customer service agents (there's an oxymoron if I ever saw one), or any other manner of un-skilled, under-educated, un-motivated, bitchy and lazy-assed "entitled" morons roaming these premises.]
Quote [Our skilled labour groups, chiefly the pilots and the maintainers, subsidize this ridiculous compensation of the un-skilled.]
Nice to see that you value your rear end in flight team Skidoo_Driver. Unmotivated, bitchy, even lazy-assed - some of the crew, maybe. Many F/a's though are hardworking, committed to delivering friendly professional customer care and a safe flight.
Nice to see that 6 weeks of initial training, being expected to deal with in-flight medical emergencies, cope with the unexpected emergency situation, and generally look after the safety of all guests on board qualifies us F/A's as 'un-skilled, uneducated labour'.
CRM at it's best
Gotta fly, I have to get back to something useful like making the flight deck coffee
Quote [Our skilled labour groups, chiefly the pilots and the maintainers, subsidize this ridiculous compensation of the un-skilled.]
Nice to see that you value your rear end in flight team Skidoo_Driver. Unmotivated, bitchy, even lazy-assed - some of the crew, maybe. Many F/a's though are hardworking, committed to delivering friendly professional customer care and a safe flight.
Nice to see that 6 weeks of initial training, being expected to deal with in-flight medical emergencies, cope with the unexpected emergency situation, and generally look after the safety of all guests on board qualifies us F/A's as 'un-skilled, uneducated labour'.
CRM at it's best
Gotta fly, I have to get back to something useful like making the flight deck coffee
quidquid excusatio prandium pro
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So let me get this straight; breguet thinks the Americans are to blame, skidoo thinks it’s the lead ramp rats, and now YYC is so pissed off she won’t bring coffee to the cockpit anymore. Sounds like attitudes prevalent in every other airline just before going bust.
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bug smasher,
I never say that it was the fault of the USA. By the way, watch CBC or read via the internet the layes edition of Canadian papers and you will see that AC is on its way out of the restructuring process. Some columnist are even surprised to see that so many financial institutions want to invest in AC. Well, of course, you will disregard anything that is not coming out of CNN or FoxNews or Bush....
I never say that it was the fault of the USA. By the way, watch CBC or read via the internet the layes edition of Canadian papers and you will see that AC is on its way out of the restructuring process. Some columnist are even surprised to see that so many financial institutions want to invest in AC. Well, of course, you will disregard anything that is not coming out of CNN or FoxNews or Bush....
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Quote [So let me get this straight; breguet thinks the Americans are to blame, skidoo thinks it’s the lead ramp rats, and now YYC is so pissed off she won’t bring coffee to the cockpit anymore. Sounds like attitudes prevalent in every other airline just before going bust]
'She' aint a she, and no, I'm not so pissed that I won't bring coffee to the flight deck anymore. But thanks for the giggle. Obviously the humour in this thread is somewhat in the eye of the beholder.
Happy Days
'She' aint a she, and no, I'm not so pissed that I won't bring coffee to the flight deck anymore. But thanks for the giggle. Obviously the humour in this thread is somewhat in the eye of the beholder.
Happy Days
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My 'ole man retires from AC in only a couple of weeks, after over 35 years service. Always been a huge union man. This time around he had very few words of wisdom: "50% of something is better than 100% of nothing". 'Nuff said by me anyway.
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Abject apologies YYC, aviation is a lot more gender-sensitive than it used to be. And that’ll be two sugars luv, stirred to the left thanks. 
According to CNN and Fox, breguet, attitudes in French Canada towards the US largely mirror those of the real French, and we all know how the French feel about us. Good luck though, if you do successfully emerge from restructuring, you’ll eventually have to face the low cost competition, and that could be another story entirely.
According to CNN and Fox, breguet, attitudes in French Canada towards the US largely mirror those of the real French, and we all know how the French feel about us. Good luck though, if you do successfully emerge from restructuring, you’ll eventually have to face the low cost competition, and that could be another story entirely.