French ATC - are they on strike on Monday, 2nd?
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Slim20 and ferris,
I am glad to see that the "bending" rule is rejected not only by the French. If more people had had the b*lls to fight for their right maybe we would have less whining and more living a decent life.
I am glad to see that the "bending" rule is rejected not only by the French. If more people had had the b*lls to fight for their right maybe we would have less whining and more living a decent life.
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I listened to an in depth report on national public radio over here (US) regarding the French ATC strike. It appears that what the French government wants is 1) to increase the length of time someone works to qualify for a state pension from 40 years to 42 years. 2) to increase the contributions an individual makes to the pension fund - I did not catch exactly how much more was being proposed.
So, from the country that defined the 35 hour work week I guess an extra 24 months on the job is just too much time away from the beach, mountains, and countryside for them to stomach...
Ozzy
So, from the country that defined the 35 hour work week I guess an extra 24 months on the job is just too much time away from the beach, mountains, and countryside for them to stomach...
Ozzy
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I don't know any details about this particular dispute, but from your own post you appear to have missed the point. Is it OK for an employer to arbitrarily change your conditions? I can understand people getting upset over this sort of thing. It seems to be happening all over the place.
It doesn't matter about the detail. Would you like your contract written in pencil?
It doesn't matter about the detail. Would you like your contract written in pencil?
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The French just don't get it do they.
Why are they on strike?- because they are having to work longer to get their pensions.
Why must the government make them work longer for a pension? - because the government cant afford the pension bill.
Why cant the government afford the pension bill? - because it doesn't have enough money.
Why doesn't it have enough money coming in? - because the French economy is weak.
Why is the French economy weak? - lack of inward investmnent.
Why is their a lack of inward investment in the french economy? - because the workers are always on strike.
Why are they on strike?- because they are having to work longer to get their pensions.
Why must the government make them work longer for a pension? - because the government cant afford the pension bill.
Why cant the government afford the pension bill? - because it doesn't have enough money.
Why doesn't it have enough money coming in? - because the French economy is weak.
Why is the French economy weak? - lack of inward investmnent.
Why is their a lack of inward investment in the french economy? - because the workers are always on strike.
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Well it will be interesting to see what happens in the UK, when the UK govt. and some of the largest UK companies (who are in exactly the same position ) get around to addressing the problem!
Ohcirrej
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Hey Ferris,
I think you missed the point here! As Flowman has pointed out, something has to be done regarding pensions in France. A strike that will effect people in other countries is NOT a valid way of addressing a problem like this (IMHO). It's a little more than "employer writing contract in pencil".
As you said as well, Aviation isn't in the best condition at the moment, and the number of flight cancellations from British carriers (and not just BA!) surely causes economic problems here, and for other Foreign operators as well. Also, given the French's response to the whole fiasco on British beef and the subsequently forgotten EU fine imposed that was never paid, it is understandable industrial action like this causes uproar.
And, as Point 7 so eloquently put (who loves ya P7?), it does seem that any day ending in a Y is a good day for a strike.
I think you missed the point here! As Flowman has pointed out, something has to be done regarding pensions in France. A strike that will effect people in other countries is NOT a valid way of addressing a problem like this (IMHO). It's a little more than "employer writing contract in pencil".
As you said as well, Aviation isn't in the best condition at the moment, and the number of flight cancellations from British carriers (and not just BA!) surely causes economic problems here, and for other Foreign operators as well. Also, given the French's response to the whole fiasco on British beef and the subsequently forgotten EU fine imposed that was never paid, it is understandable industrial action like this causes uproar.
And, as Point 7 so eloquently put (who loves ya P7?), it does seem that any day ending in a Y is a good day for a strike.
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If you (as clearly stated) have so little concern for the Frenchmen's plight, why should they have any for you or anyone else? What a strange argument.
British beef is snubbed, so it's OK to slag the French (on a totally unrelated issue)? Grow up.
You've been over there too long.
British beef is snubbed, so it's OK to slag the French (on a totally unrelated issue)? Grow up.
You've been over there too long.
Ohcirrej
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You said it youself. You don't know any details regarding this dispute, yet this doesn't stop you contaminating this thread with your usual inflamatory insight.
As this isn't an Economic Forum, we shant go into the ins and outs of the pending French national pension bill which is the cause of this action. However, to wrongly imply that I have no concern for what is going on, is an assumption you have grossly innacurate. That wasn't French slagging, that was an opinion you dolt (your opinions again, are something YOU freely share with others).
And to have the audacity to imply I have been here to long indicates that you knew me before I came here. Once again, YOUR WRONG! Aside from knowing me though my brother, you don't know me from Adam. And if you're implying that me being here for over 5 years has "changed" me, well, it isn't me who needs to grow up bozo.
Go back to sticking you nose into things you have a slight bit of knowledge about.
(This was going to be a private message, but I felt I would post it to reveal to everybody how wrong you are!!)
As this isn't an Economic Forum, we shant go into the ins and outs of the pending French national pension bill which is the cause of this action. However, to wrongly imply that I have no concern for what is going on, is an assumption you have grossly innacurate. That wasn't French slagging, that was an opinion you dolt (your opinions again, are something YOU freely share with others).
And to have the audacity to imply I have been here to long indicates that you knew me before I came here. Once again, YOUR WRONG! Aside from knowing me though my brother, you don't know me from Adam. And if you're implying that me being here for over 5 years has "changed" me, well, it isn't me who needs to grow up bozo.
Go back to sticking you nose into things you have a slight bit of knowledge about.
(This was going to be a private message, but I felt I would post it to reveal to everybody how wrong you are!!)
Kaffir Lime Leaf Junkie
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You might be interested in this:
Quote:
-Jeudi 5 juin, il sera quasiment impossible d'accéder à la Ville rose.
Plusieurs unions départementales des syndicats CGT, CFDT, FO, UNSA, FSU
et Solidaires ont décidé d'une « opération ville morte ». L'objectif est simple: bloquer tous les accès à Toulouse pour qu'il n'y ait aucune activité au coeur de la ville. Même si bon nombre de commerçants, qui se plaignent de la désaffection des clients habituels les jours de manifestation, risquent d'en subir les conséquences.
« Cette action est symbolique, elle illustre la situation bloquée dans laquelle s'est empêtré le gouvernement », lâche Joseph Bellanca, secrétaire général de l'Union départementale FO.
Dès 8 heures du matin, des barrages seront mis en place sur le
périphérique et aux entrées de Toulouse, pour bloquer les automobilistes qui souhaitent rallier le centre ville.
L'aspect logistique n'a pas encore été déterminé mais les organisations syndicales comptent sur la participation des routiers et peut-être des transports urbains. En effet, les syndicats des transports devraient rejoindre les grévistes dès le mardi 3 juin, avec des perturbations àprévoir à la SNCF et dans les transports en commun.
PAS D'ACCES AU CENTRE VILLE
Cette nouvelle action a été décidée lors d'une réunion intersyndicale mardi soir, qui faisait suite à la manifestation interprofessionnelle, place Arnaud Bernard.
Après les manifestations « traditionnelles » de ces derniers jours, les syndicats ont choisi par cette nouvelle action, de passer à la vitesse supérieure pour montrer leur détermination.
« Notre but n'est pas d'embêter les gens, mais nous voulons nous faire entendre », poursuit Joseph Bellanca. « Au contraire, pour que les gens évitent de passer des heures dans les embouteillages, mieux vaut les informer et qu'ils prennent leurs dispositions pour jeudi »
Tous les secteurs en grève sont invités à participer à cette action qui ne devrait pas dépasser la journée et pourrait se transformer en manifestation dans l'après-midi.
Pour les syndicats toulousains, le message adressé au gouvernement est clair: « Ne jouez pas le pourrissement de la situation. »
Unquote.
Basically, the city of Toulouse is being blocked today, "operation dead city"
The ringroad is strategically closed off at all junctions in a very orginised way by the various union factions.
Who pay the penalties?
- School/Univeristy students who are in the middle of their exams.
- out-off town workers (incl.many hospital staff)
- shopkeepers in the city
- etc.
I can not see the sense in that.
If the problem (which is a matter of opinion) is created by the governement, hitting the populatioon will not resolve this.
unfortunately the French way of negotiation is a little different from other countries.
The management (or governement) imposes something and will not bedge until the "subjects" revolt. THEN some negotiation might start.
I love the country and (most of) its people but not this confrontationalism.
On-On
P.S. I often attempt to compare it with my UK time when electricity workers/water workers and miners were striking. That was a pain in the @rse but nothing compared with the French "solutions".
Quote:
-Jeudi 5 juin, il sera quasiment impossible d'accéder à la Ville rose.
Plusieurs unions départementales des syndicats CGT, CFDT, FO, UNSA, FSU
et Solidaires ont décidé d'une « opération ville morte ». L'objectif est simple: bloquer tous les accès à Toulouse pour qu'il n'y ait aucune activité au coeur de la ville. Même si bon nombre de commerçants, qui se plaignent de la désaffection des clients habituels les jours de manifestation, risquent d'en subir les conséquences.
« Cette action est symbolique, elle illustre la situation bloquée dans laquelle s'est empêtré le gouvernement », lâche Joseph Bellanca, secrétaire général de l'Union départementale FO.
Dès 8 heures du matin, des barrages seront mis en place sur le
périphérique et aux entrées de Toulouse, pour bloquer les automobilistes qui souhaitent rallier le centre ville.
L'aspect logistique n'a pas encore été déterminé mais les organisations syndicales comptent sur la participation des routiers et peut-être des transports urbains. En effet, les syndicats des transports devraient rejoindre les grévistes dès le mardi 3 juin, avec des perturbations àprévoir à la SNCF et dans les transports en commun.
PAS D'ACCES AU CENTRE VILLE
Cette nouvelle action a été décidée lors d'une réunion intersyndicale mardi soir, qui faisait suite à la manifestation interprofessionnelle, place Arnaud Bernard.
Après les manifestations « traditionnelles » de ces derniers jours, les syndicats ont choisi par cette nouvelle action, de passer à la vitesse supérieure pour montrer leur détermination.
« Notre but n'est pas d'embêter les gens, mais nous voulons nous faire entendre », poursuit Joseph Bellanca. « Au contraire, pour que les gens évitent de passer des heures dans les embouteillages, mieux vaut les informer et qu'ils prennent leurs dispositions pour jeudi »
Tous les secteurs en grève sont invités à participer à cette action qui ne devrait pas dépasser la journée et pourrait se transformer en manifestation dans l'après-midi.
Pour les syndicats toulousains, le message adressé au gouvernement est clair: « Ne jouez pas le pourrissement de la situation. »
Unquote.
Basically, the city of Toulouse is being blocked today, "operation dead city"
The ringroad is strategically closed off at all junctions in a very orginised way by the various union factions.
Who pay the penalties?
- School/Univeristy students who are in the middle of their exams.
- out-off town workers (incl.many hospital staff)
- shopkeepers in the city
- etc.
I can not see the sense in that.
If the problem (which is a matter of opinion) is created by the governement, hitting the populatioon will not resolve this.
unfortunately the French way of negotiation is a little different from other countries.
The management (or governement) imposes something and will not bedge until the "subjects" revolt. THEN some negotiation might start.
I love the country and (most of) its people but not this confrontationalism.
On-On
P.S. I often attempt to compare it with my UK time when electricity workers/water workers and miners were striking. That was a pain in the @rse but nothing compared with the French "solutions".
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IFTB.
Strikes are not pleasant for anyone, however;
Jerricho: Wow, a bit too close to the bone, was I?
That made me laugh!! I know you, but I don't know you???
French slagging, whether an opinion or not, is French slagging. Maybe you should PM ill-tempered rants? After all, who's the dolt? I didn't fail ATC training the first time round.
Focussing on the details of the dispute doesn't change the priciples involved. And that is something I do know a bit about.
Strikes are not pleasant for anyone, however;
The management (or governement) imposes something and will not bedge until the "subjects" revolt. THEN some negotiation might start.
Once again, YOUR WRONG! Aside from knowing me though my brother, you don't know me from Adam.
That wasn't French slagging, that was an opinion you dolt
Focussing on the details of the dispute doesn't change the priciples involved. And that is something I do know a bit about.
Ohcirrej
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Well, if airing dirty laundry in public.......................
"At least I didn't fail ATC training first time round".......what, this makes you more of a man? Yeah, I'll be the first to admit I was very immature and stupid back then. But, I did something about it! Who needs to grow up here? And remind me why they referred to you as "Kastanza" or what ever the hell it was?
The principles involved are this.........there is a deficit in the French Pension system. The government has proposed a bill it believes will solve this. Those workers who don't agree with what has been proposed are taking action. Now, as others have stated here, if nothing is done to address this deficit, what occurs when people start retiring? I haven't heard any different proposals to fix the problem, just a strike. We could argue all day over the rights and wrongs of industrial relations (as I did at Uni.....uneducated, right!), this isn't the place.
I think the crux of the origin of this thread needs to be re-stated. French domestic problems are causing turmoil through Europe. And people are airing their concerns/opinions with regard to the Aviation industry. IMHO, this isn't slagging.
"At least I didn't fail ATC training first time round".......what, this makes you more of a man? Yeah, I'll be the first to admit I was very immature and stupid back then. But, I did something about it! Who needs to grow up here? And remind me why they referred to you as "Kastanza" or what ever the hell it was?
The principles involved are this.........there is a deficit in the French Pension system. The government has proposed a bill it believes will solve this. Those workers who don't agree with what has been proposed are taking action. Now, as others have stated here, if nothing is done to address this deficit, what occurs when people start retiring? I haven't heard any different proposals to fix the problem, just a strike. We could argue all day over the rights and wrongs of industrial relations (as I did at Uni.....uneducated, right!), this isn't the place.
I think the crux of the origin of this thread needs to be re-stated. French domestic problems are causing turmoil through Europe. And people are airing their concerns/opinions with regard to the Aviation industry. IMHO, this isn't slagging.
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>Well it will be interesting to see what happens in the UK, when
>the UK govt. and some of the largest UK companies (who are in
>exactly the same position ) get around to addressing the
>problem!
Too right. There is no getting away from the fact that everyone has to save more for their retirement. In future the ratio of people working vs retired won't allow a system based on taxing one group to pay another.
It's quite scary how much money you need to save during your 40 year working life in order pay for 25-30 years of quality retirement.
My preference would be to force everyone to make some provision for their retirement but allow them (within limits) to choose how they do it.
>the UK govt. and some of the largest UK companies (who are in
>exactly the same position ) get around to addressing the
>problem!
Too right. There is no getting away from the fact that everyone has to save more for their retirement. In future the ratio of people working vs retired won't allow a system based on taxing one group to pay another.
It's quite scary how much money you need to save during your 40 year working life in order pay for 25-30 years of quality retirement.
My preference would be to force everyone to make some provision for their retirement but allow them (within limits) to choose how they do it.
Ohcirrej
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Someone buy that man a beer!
In an attempt to get back to the origin of the thread (and apologies to all for all above), Cwatters, I couldn't agree more. Making a provision for ones future should be paramount. Not turning around at what ever age and saying "Oh great, now what do I live on?".
IMO, it seems unfair that the "Arbitration" used by the French for their disputes effects all of Europe like this.
In an attempt to get back to the origin of the thread (and apologies to all for all above), Cwatters, I couldn't agree more. Making a provision for ones future should be paramount. Not turning around at what ever age and saying "Oh great, now what do I live on?".
IMO, it seems unfair that the "Arbitration" used by the French for their disputes effects all of Europe like this.
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So when they hand you your leaving cheque, and it's half what it should be, the explaination being "we've got a bit of a pension shortfall, so you won't be getting your entitlements"; that will be OK with you, then? A dispute involving ATS will, inevitably, affect others. Perhaps that is the point?
ps. Jerricho. The nickname was a reference to physical appearance (and if the shoe fits.....
). But isn't that sort of thing a bit childish, schoolboy sort of stuff? Oh, that's right, you can't distinguish. Maybe the Canuks will help you.
ps. Jerricho. The nickname was a reference to physical appearance (and if the shoe fits.....
). But isn't that sort of thing a bit childish, schoolboy sort of stuff? Oh, that's right, you can't distinguish. Maybe the Canuks will help you.
Kaffir Lime Leaf Junkie
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Jerricho:
""IMO, it seems unfair that the "Arbitration" used by the French for their disputes effects all of Europe like this.""
Totally agree with you.
However, does the arbitration as it is conducted in the UK exist in France?
(And that's a question)
""IMO, it seems unfair that the "Arbitration" used by the French for their disputes effects all of Europe like this.""
Totally agree with you.
However, does the arbitration as it is conducted in the UK exist in France?
(And that's a question)
Ohcirrej
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You got me there. I don't know if arbitration as such exists.
There have been several strikes here over the past year (firefighters, Tube drivers), but I don't recall them having the same impact on the European economy.
Ok Ferris, dazzle me with your wisdom. Pension shortfall of $65 billion, the government has proposed one solution. Can you come up with one? You used to be a Union Rep. How would you deal with this one?
BTW Childish, schoolboy stuff. Inferring in a PM "you better hope our paths don't cross" is very mature now, isn't it?
There have been several strikes here over the past year (firefighters, Tube drivers), but I don't recall them having the same impact on the European economy.
Ok Ferris, dazzle me with your wisdom. Pension shortfall of $65 billion, the government has proposed one solution. Can you come up with one? You used to be a Union Rep. How would you deal with this one?
BTW Childish, schoolboy stuff. Inferring in a PM "you better hope our paths don't cross" is very mature now, isn't it?
Prince of Darkness
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Couple of points I should address here on the French ATC strikes.
ferris
At least you admit your ignorance. Well yes, most employers are within their rights to change the T&Cs of employment at any time, typically you know that up front when you accept a position with them. They do in effect, hold all the cards - just the way it is. Happens all the time. But as I see this, the French government is at the proposal stage, not the implementation stage.
You know about not focussing on details? But isn't the devil in the details? Can we say "bandwagon"?
Hmmm maybe if the strike doesn't have the intended effect France will just close up shop altogether rather than only the 8 weeks in the summer.
Ozzy
ferris
I don't know any details about this particular dispute, but from your own post you appear to have missed the point. Is it OK for an employer to arbitrarily change your conditions?
Focussing on the details of the dispute doesn't change the priciples involved. And that is something I do know a bit about.
Hmmm maybe if the strike doesn't have the intended effect France will just close up shop altogether rather than only the 8 weeks in the summer.
Ozzy
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Ferris
quote
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"So when they hand you your leaving cheque, and it's half what it should be, the explaination being "we've got a bit of a pension shortfall, so you won't be getting your entitlements"; that will be OK with you, then?"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Surely what the French government are saying is: " We will have a pension shortfall unless we do something about it, this is our proposal..."
Makes sense to me. It is then up to the unions to make a counter proposal. If they have a better idea lets hear it because this will affect all of us eventually. Simply saying "NON" does not solve the problem, it makes it worse if anything.
Anyway, getting back to my original question (and maybe there is potential for a poll here) do you Ppruners favour:
a) doing nothing
b) going on strike
c) sulking
d) paying higher contributions
e) working longer
f) receiving a smaller pension
flowman
quote
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"So when they hand you your leaving cheque, and it's half what it should be, the explaination being "we've got a bit of a pension shortfall, so you won't be getting your entitlements"; that will be OK with you, then?"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Surely what the French government are saying is: " We will have a pension shortfall unless we do something about it, this is our proposal..."
Makes sense to me. It is then up to the unions to make a counter proposal. If they have a better idea lets hear it because this will affect all of us eventually. Simply saying "NON" does not solve the problem, it makes it worse if anything.
Anyway, getting back to my original question (and maybe there is potential for a poll here) do you Ppruners favour:
a) doing nothing
b) going on strike
c) sulking
d) paying higher contributions
e) working longer
f) receiving a smaller pension
flowman
Last edited by flowman; 6th Jun 2003 at 05:42.