Free First Officers
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Join Date: Jan 2000
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Free First Officers
Found this on the "Barnstormers" web page and I thought you all should read it.. ."Use free first officers for your transport aircraft. Reduce your operating expenses! We provide F/O's typed in the A/C of your choice. They will fly for your company NO SALARY or any other COMPENSATION, plus we pay a fee for your company.. .Contact Stephen Hoinville at . .EAGLE JET INTERNATIONAL AT mia.. .TEL 1-305-278-0012. .fAX 1-305-378-8925". .. .lets see if all the so called "unions" will stand around and do nothing, again...... .What is this profession coming to???. .Regards to all
Join Date: Aug 1999
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Where is the news in this? Foreign pilots have been doing this in the USA for years. Just to build time. The problem is getting them qualified, and insurance min. Lots of 135 outfits use these kids flying light twins up tp turbo props. Unions are not involved, they are not paid so no problem with INS. (as a matter of fact, the foreigner sometimes pays) And sometime low salary is paid in cash under the table.. .How would you stop it?
Join Date: Feb 2000
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Any company doing such a thing should be blacklisted and unable to find any pilots,paid or unpaid.. .There is an "airline" in MIA that has been doing this for years ( Gulfstream International) and I. .still fail to see how they are getting away with it. I believe they charge $18,000 for 200-250 hrs in the right seat of a B-1900. . .It is immoral and should be illegal!. .Don't work for these companies!!!
Yep, when my brother flew (recip) Twin Commanders a few years ago, carrying cargo all night long with three or four legs, he sometimes had British and/or European copilots. He told me that the young pilots paid his (former) Kansas City, MO company about $20 per hour, in order to acquire some multi hours. His company was called "Regional Southwest Air", or something very similar. It is possible that my brother was not given very accurate info about the company "requirements" to allow a second pilot fly. Many nights he flew solo, and what a grinding duty period! He was based at the downtown Kansas City Airport.. .. .Were these foreign pilots logging PIC time when they flew as second-in-command in the US?. .. .If somebody needs more info, send me a note and I will ask my Bruder to clarify.. . . . <small>[ 12 March 2002, 04:58: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]</small>
Join Date: Apr 1999
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Although some of my countrymen here might think differently, the Brits ARE european <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> . .. .Sorry IO, couldn't resist <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> . .. .On topic, how do you think you'll ever be able to stop it in the current climate? Minimum requirements go up and they still leave flight-school with just over 200 hours. All these CP's are then "ready" for it but nobody will give them a job unless they "pay" for their type. All this is wrong but will never change unless small operaters stop using these people too but they like the money to much <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
Join Date: Apr 2001
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Well, all I can say is that I am never recommending this career to my children. Working for free (out of desperation) may seem the right thing to do at the start. But by Christ,we later realise that this was the worst thing we could ever do. The training is expensive, the remuneration is poor. . .Until we all wake up and smell the coffee we get what we deserve.. .. .Have a nice day.
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RTO. .. .Frankly I don't care about your situation. But how would you like it if I came to your boss and asked him if I could do your job instead of you, for no wages, thereby putting you out of work.. .. .Then you would have no cash to pursue your chosen next career.. .. .Well some of us are trying to earn a living at this and resent those who would seek to undermine it.. .. .If you 'love to fly' then don't become an airline pilot, use your savings to buy a share in an aircraft. It may come as a surprise, but there are many professional pilots like me who never see an airport or aeroplane in between duties.. .. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 12 March 2002, 22:14: Message edited by: overstress ]</small>
Realistically what is the next step ? Captains paying for time on type ! How much would you pay for 500 hours in command of a B737NG.How would that improve your employment prospects in todays competative job market? Coming soon to an airline near you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
Join Date: Sep 1999
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Tough, but fair.. .. .RTO, think about it. Are you (a) advancing or (b) retarding the chances of airline pilots generally? Are pilots who do this (a) an asset or (b) a liability to flight safety?. .. .Low-budget employers either get pilots with a little experience, whom they have to pay living wages, or they get numpties with no experience and no assets worth a damn except a bit of paper, and they get money in the bank.. .. .Lack of regulation is killing the employment market. And with just a little less luck than hitherto, they will kill the punters as well.. .. .A used to work for a Flight Ops Director who had a pilot (just out of 509, ink hardly dry on a frozen ATPL) tell him he'd work for nothing, just to get the experience. Sent him away with a flea in his ear, telling him never, EVER to try pulling that stunt again. And good for him.. .. .The sort of company that would pull this stunt should be illegal. Not only for trying to get round actually paying their staff, but for trying to find ways to get cheaper, less-qualified staff than they ought to be employing.. .. .RTO, so you are finding it tough. I sympathise. No, really I do. I found it tough when I was starting out. Now, with 4,000 hours under my belt, including a significant amount of command time, I am still finding it tough. So what? How do you think I and the MANY like me, many much more experienced, like it when we see kids willing to fly for free?. .. .What about the two captains who used to fly for the same company as me, married to each other with a baby then about to be born, both made redundant - god knows how many hours in command and hours of training experience between them, both made redundant when the bank pulled the plug? You think you deserve a job before them? You think that encouraging the less scrupulous companies in their dangerous practices provides progress for our profession, for the industry?
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RTO, if you like to fly and think seriously about pursuing a career in aviation, then think SERIOUSLY about how you want that career to be and how YOU expect your future profession to be. Don't help to undermine the profession as it is today so that when you get a job, it'll be something totally different....
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RTO, I can sympathize with your situation, but believe me, most of us have been in the same situation when the job market dried up.. .The fact is , if NOBODY takes these unpaid jobs, these companies will be forced to actually employ. .somebody at a living wage.. . As a fellow Norwegian, I can understand that there aren't any flying jobs in Norway right now,. .but the cycle always repeats itself, and the supply/demand ratio will once again favor pilots looking for work.. .My recommendation is be patient, flight instruct . .if you can, and eventually your big break will come, and it won't be as a slave for a guy like . .T.C.
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As long as foreign pilots come to the USA and fly for free, dodge immigration until somehow they get a green card, problem will persist.. .I don't really understand how someone could abandon the allegiance to his or her native country. I wonder how many would want to stay if they had to serve a couple years in the military first. Interesting thought.
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This is a tricky one!!. .I agree with RTO that you do what you have to do to progress in this game,i think it is all too easy for us with jobs to judge.. . If i found myself in this situation i would prob pay for something like this if i could afford it , there prob isn't a guy on this site that wouldn't.. .The problem is there are too many non nationals flying for our airlines at present.. .It upsets me when i hear a foreign voice in a British aircraft , i think of all our guys working in offices etc who never stood a chance.. .I think if we want to point fingers here then we should start with CAA and BALPA not at guys trying to become a part of what we take for granted!. .Good luck RTO <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
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Two errors in your post, SkyGuy:-. .. .1) You say it is too easy for people with jobs to judge - what about those without jobs? I am currently unemployed (thanks, BoS) and IMHO schemes like the one described stink. The sort of people who use them think nothing about the consequences to the profession and the industry. It simply encourages the worst sort of employer to try to pay less than the going rate for a suitably-experienced pilot, and fill his aircraft with know-nothing numpties, just so the paperwork looks right. Safety? Damn safety.. .. .2) There are many people here who would never go in for such a scheme. I am one.
Join Date: Apr 1999
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Ach no, SkyGuy might be just another xenophobe, why is it that there's always someone who likes his borders so much that he thinks that anything foreign is to blame for his own misery. How sad, SkyGuy, don't you think that the situation would be even worse if ALL Brits flying all over the world were to be told to return to dear old England and try their luck here? I'm sure all our foreign colleagues would then stand a better chance of getting a job in their country. That will not solve anything though, its a global market my friend!. .. .Back to the topic: Unfortunately this situation won't change unless EVERY LAST pilot, looking for a job, will say: "Pay you mister boss, no way." But with so many hundreds looking for jobs there will always be some who will take the offer and fork out the money. Sad but true. .. .And RTO, if you could come over here (UK) and find a job, your welcome to it. Even if it was just to annoy Skygod. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />
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Its all a matter of market forces - as individuals we can all try to make a certain stand, but the fundamentals of the market will always apply. Now if BALPA/ALPA/IFALPA or governments change the nature of the market that is another thing..... .. .In the UK Monarch, Sabre, UKLeisure(now A2000), Airtours, Easyjet and others have all had guys in the RHS for 6 months for free, with the carrot of a contract at the end. I should know - I was one of them. . .. .I'm not saying it's right - but I didn't dwell on the morality too much at the time, and the break it got me now has me in the left seat of a 737 aged 33. Did I feel exploited ? A bit. Do I recommend the scheme to 200 hour guys now - of course I do! That's capitalism. The alternative system didn't work too well apparently.. .. .Or look at it another way. Other "professions" also have "nasty hoops" to them (Junior House Doctors for one) - and lets not forget David Beckham was once a YTS trainee !!!!
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So Mr "I don't like non-brits flying british aircraft", you're telling us if you were unemployed you wouldn't apply abroad? I think that if you were grounded as long as a lot of us are, you would say yes to a company calling from Mongolia to come fly for them without blinking.. .Here in Belgium, I estimate 60 or even 70% of all pro-pilots are out of a job. And that while a lot of local companies employ expats, and a heluvva a lot of em are.... guess what Brits. And do you see me blow up about it, no. It's just tough luck, that's how the free market works. Just think that if we would apply your theory of each pilot can only fly at a company in his own country, yours would be overflowing with you're nationals who've been flying all over the world and have an enormous amount of experience among them. . .You can bet that when some foreign airline offers me my first jet-job I will accept it with both hands without feeling sorry for the national pilots, as long as the company is sound and they pay me what I'm worth offcourse. . .That said, I do think that recruiters should employ local people if they are available instead of fleeing into cheap labour.. .Which brings us to the will-fly-for-free guys. I spent a lot of money on getting where I am right now (which is nowhere actually) and I'm not planning to just give all that away for free. I am convinced that I am a quality pilot (I hope each pro-flyer thinks that of himself) and think that if someone wants quality, he has to pay for it. I haven't heard of another job anywhere in the world where one works for free or even has to pay! The only reason this abuse persits is because we all share one thing, our passion for flying. Some 'clever' business men take advantage of this, IMHO these people should stick to selling used cars and stay far away from aviation. . .. .If you are a pilot whose job is very dear to him, try not to give in to the temptation, even if you have the money. It's the only way we can preserve our precarious quality of life.