Free First Officers
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SC states:. ."If you don't fly for the love of it then your probably in the wrong business, if you do you'll understand what these pilots are doing.". .. .So, if we are to be decently paid and treated as professionals we should hate flying?! Doing something you love and getting paid fairly for it are not mutually exclusive ideas.. .. .I understand these pilots are selling self respect for a job. Or, I don't understand! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" />
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Jed A1,. .. .I don`t know of any pilot that was born experienced on an aircraft type. Neither do you I would think.. .. .I understand that you do not want to follow up on this, but; how do you see inexperienced pilots becoming experienced pilots if you do not give them a chance to gain...experience? And if an airline can maintain its safety standards by employing, what you call inexperienced pilots, in the cockpit, I cannot see why not. It could well be that the candidates selected for the pprune/Astraeus scheme are all experienced pilots. Not on the B737, off course, but as pilots in general. But again, this is not only a question about hours in a log book, is it. It`s about the candidate you select for a scheme like this. And honestly Jed A1, I have no doubt that the Astraeus ops. management have gone through the selection process very carefully.
Join Date: Nov 2000
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Lima November-- on a slightly different note- your reply carries a banner for a web site that is faulty and has NO contact addresses. Can you email me regarding this? [email protected]. . . . <small>[ 16 March 2002, 09:52: Message edited by: lost soul ]</small>
Join Date: Aug 2000
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OK, so the company values captains to the tune of £75K a year, the company values f/o s. at £45K a year, the company puts a value of approx. £4K on a CTC placement.. .. .If there were to be enough of these placements the value of an f/o would soon become.......?? my guess about £20K, now tell me that this is good for your jobs!
Jet Blast Rat
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Hugmonster - the reason is that at the moment there are too many qualified pilots around. My solution to this, given that I don't have the hours to get a job in the climate, is to work elsewhere until the climate improves. Other peoples' solutions ae to get the hours where they can. They are not actually working for free from their own point of view as always having paid for flying, just from yours as a sometime paid pilot. The experience they are acquiring would cost them a fortune. Even to barely keep the licences up costs a huge amount, at least in the UK.. .. .In fact historically this is a very common way of gaining employment in any over-subscribed profession. Apparently it is still almost impossible to start any career in the BBC without some unpaid work as an intern/student first. Historically apprenticeships were unpaid, though living space and food were provided.. .. .Oh, and on your final point is irrelevant. It would not happen under the current system. The only first officers experienced enough for most airlines to promote to captain would not do so. We are considering a real situation that has occured, not a hypothetical one. It does bring up the issue that of course the seniority system should be dismantled.. .. .Amex, these people are still learning their job (I assume the ATPLs are frozen like my own), as am I though I probably have more hours than they do. See my above points about the value to them.. .. .Jabewar - you clearly didn't even bother to read the sentence of mine that you quoted, and just made up an interpretation that cannot possibly be put on it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> I am confused as to why you did so. It makes for a completely meaningless debate if you answer a point I did not make.. .. .Do you think that PPL flying instructors are selling self-respect for a job? Many do not get paid at all, others so little that the combined value they are getting between pay and logged hours is less than the value of the logged hours these pilots are getting. However they love the job and they gain the experience needed to get a good job later.
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- As I am sure you know, in Aviation we never stop learning, whether you have 5 hours or 20000 hours. Does it mean because we are then still learning the job (on top of enjoying it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ), we shouldn't get paid for it ?. .- From the last part of your reply, I see very well what is the value to them or should I say, I see the Value to them in a short sighted way.... .In doing so they are driving the Profession down, with the salaries with it and when years later, after their airline had gone broke (They always do <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ), I am not sure they will be so happy that some guy accept to pay to work, when they are now in the same situation as the more experienced pilots they undercut years earlier.. .But hey that's just great because we are only making ourselves cheaper and cheaper without anyone's help.
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"If you don't fly for the love of it then your probably in the wrong business, if you do you'll understand what these pilots are doing.". .. .So, SC what do you mean by this statement? I do understand the motivation of these pilots but believe they are misguided and do little for our collective welfare.. .. .I am not preaching from on high, I am out of work too. I have been out of work before. I did not, and will not, compromise myself for something that will come in due time. Patience is a virtue.. .. .As I said, getting paid as a professional is about principle and true entry level jobs have never been well paid. A PPL instructor, as I once was, typically is low time/experience and paid accordingly, with pay increasing with experience/qualifications.. .. .If it were possible to get all pilots on side with the idea of fair pay for the job (nobody working for free), what would happen to pay? . .. .Every industry has a minimum value it accepts for its' product/service. Professional pilots should as well!
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The comments thus far have been about those pilots that need to gain experience. It can also be looked at from a different perspective.. .. .I am now at a point where I am considered over qualified for many of the few jobs that are available in my neck of the woods. Perhaps I should offer to work for free to keep current and because I love my job.. .. .Small problem: loving my job does not pay the bills! When one is young and single, willing to do anything for this career seems like a worthwhile sacrifice, but as one moves forward other priorities come into play. The way we perceive ourselves as professionals early on, may well influence how others perceive our worth later. Don't be shortsighted, when one becomes a Senior FO working for poor wages, don't expect the Captain upgrade to bring a monetary windfall. Thin edge of the wedge as they say.. .. .Apparently I need a job! Too much time on my hands to rant atop my soapbox!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />
Join Date: Apr 2001
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At the risk of being scrutinized by a large number of fellow pilots, I'll tell you that I have done an internship for a major 135 outfit (cargo) in the US. So yes, I paid for it.. .. .It was not my job, but I sure worked incredibly hard, as if it were my job. I learned a lot. Flying turboprops in and out of places like LAX and small desert uncontrolled airports, hot, cold, bad weather, everything.. .. .I drew more experience from that than my time flying in Europe on both a Brasilia and a Boeing 757. The hours I put in my logbook during the internship aren't just hours, they're experience. 7 flight hours there were a lot more involving than a 7 hour flight on the 757 where everything is automated and you fly above the weather.. .. .I did not steal anyone's job there. The company doesn't need a first officer for the cargo flights. The amount of experience you gain there depends solely on your own person and I got a lot from it.. .. .So bla bla bla I have my CPL and I should be paid what I'm worth. So if you get your driving licence, you expect a great paying job as a taxi driver right away? Sorry but with just a CPL, you're not worth that much. It's true, there's no substitute for experience.. .. .If you do get a nice jet job with your 200 hours, then all the best to you!! Don't go saying that you DESERVE it though.. .. .Okay everybody, that's my tuppence worth, no egg throwing please! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />
Join Date: Nov 2001
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Iz (alles goed),. .. .I agree with you. There couldn't be a better place for experience then that part 135 operator.. .. .So if you want to throw eggs:. .. .soft boiled with pepper and salt.
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Funny, I have just started looking into "Paying for work scemes". There has been some very valuable comments (from both sides), though at the end of the day... Which low time pilot would not sell their sole for hours? . .. .If anyone can give me some companies to look into... please email me on [email protected].
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Jabewar, yes but you havehad a flying job. I assume you have a certain number of hours, enough to give you god prospects during the current recovery. These are I think people who are in a very different position.
Join Date: Jul 2001
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I think the people on this thread, who think that the likes of CTC and Astraeus are wrong, pretty obviously do not know the facts otherwise they definately wouldn't be commenting on them!. .. .If you still think you are right, ask yourself these questions:. .. .Would you: . .. .After spending nearly 60K on your flight training (two huge loans and two remortgages). Been offered a contract with a major UK airline, made redundant before starting due to Sept 11th. Worked in a shop for six months.And then a company like CTC came and offered to pay for your type rating, got you a job with a fantastic airline where you only got paid 1K per month. . .. .Would you say No? I don't think so!!!
Join Date: Sep 1999
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Strange post there, CSU.. .. .The more I think about this, the more I am convinced that it is totally wrong.. .. .I reiterate that I have nothing against schemes that provide sponsorship with the ultimate aim of a full, normal contract at the end of it. Nor am I opposed to having what used to be called Pilot's Assistants on the flight deck of an aircraft requiring only one crew member. However, as a non-required member of the crew, I do not see how any hours flown in such a capacity can be logged.. .. .Now to the crux of the matter - having pilots pay to fly your aircraft.. .. .The contractual, legal considerations are horrific. If both the crew AND the passengers are paying, who is legally your customer? If a paying pilot were not to get what he saw as sufficient flying, could he sue you? Quite probably. If he is not technically an employee but a customer, what form of insurance cover does he have? Is he covered by employers' liability schemes, or standard passenger compensation schemes or public liability insurance? Either of the latter will probably be thoroughly inadequate.. .. .I don't particularly care that you may say a "normally-employed" F/O is receiving training. Pilots learn every flight they do, whether a normal roster day, a checkride with a Training Captain, or in the Sim. That is not an adequate measure of the matter. However, if the primary purpose of the flight is public transport, then the pilots should be paid, and receive all the protection, insurance etc. etc. implicit by a standard employer/employee relationship.. .. .Anything else should be illegal.. .. .And to all low-hour pilots out there stuck in the old experience Catch 22, I sympathise, as I am sure all other pilots do. But we've all been there. You need patience. But don't screw your colleagues by trying to climb over their backs, encouraging unscrupulous employers, and degrading the profession, making yourself and your colleagues prostitutes into the bargain.. . . . <small>[ 18 March 2002, 01:13: Message edited by: HugMonster ]</small>
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You have it reversed, Huggy. Prostitutes get paid, so all profesional pilots are prostituting themselves <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />
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S. C.:. .. .Hug may have miss spoke as to the prostitute thing, however you don't seem bright enough to figure out that anyone " working " for no pay is in slavery.. .. .If you wish to allow some company to sodomize you financially that is O.K. with me.. .. .Just don't undercut other pilots, find a more suitable endeavour other than flying.. .. .The other very important factor is any company that saves money through slavery will in all likelyhood skimp everywhere else..Therefore safety is compromised.. .. .................. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> (Think about it S.C.,say no). . . . <small>[ 18 March 2002, 02:50: Message edited by: Cat Driver ]</small>
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Iz, what a hell is wrong with you??? How can you log time if you are not a required crewmember? People like you make me SICK!!. .. ."The hours I put in my logbook during the internship aren't just hours,". .. ."I did not steal anyone's job there. The company doesn't need a first officer for the cargo flights."
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Well dude, come along on one of our flights, we have about 250 barf bags in the seat pockets <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .Thanks for your informed view on things. The companies FAR135 approved manual states that the planes may be operated officially as two-pilot aircraft and such I'm able to log the flight time. Since the ops manual is FAA approved, it's the law. Thank you very much.