Free First Officers
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
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Why is that folks who have climbed the ladder are always so keen to pull it up after them?. .. .Why not let young guns have a chance at the RHS of a jet in the UK. After all, they present no threat if they are no good, and are good for the airline and us pilots if there are. The selection and training (here in the UK) is extremly tough and uncompromising. Probably more so than for DEP who have some experience.. .. .I have made redundant twice in my 3 years in the business but I dont resent these guys taking a golden chance if they manage to get it. Remember, you can always apply rather than sitting at home and whinging............ . . . <small>[ 13 March 2002, 17:42: Message edited by: jetgirl ]</small>
Join Date: Aug 2000
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Isn't this vertually the same thing that the outfit down in Southampton (ATP Academy or such like) have been doing in the UK for years, free FO's for six months and then the airline decides whether they want to give them a contract.. .. .It always seemed pretty shoddy to me.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: U.K
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I got started on the ATP scheme a few years ago. Yes i did fly for 6 months without being paid, but they were the best 6 months of my life because i knew i had made it into the big time and was now playing with the big boys in big aeroplanes.... .Look you do what you have to do in this game to progress to your final goal whatever that might be, all i know is that there are still guys i know out there flying tomohawks and warriors and some have given up on this whole thing.. .Do i deserve to be here over them .....No BUT i saw a chance and i ran with it............ and would advise any other guys suffering from this moral dilema to do the same! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />
Join Date: Sep 1999
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The xenophobic aspect has been done (and discredited many times. Not interested in that.. .. .As for the "pay to fly" argument, there is a big difference between having F/O's pay to fly your aircraft, undercutting qualified, available pilots on the one hand, and having people fly for six months for allowances only prior to a full contract (instead of being bonded) on the other.. .. .If people are so self-interested that they will climb over the backs of their professional colleagues, then I hope never to have to rely on them for real. I suspect that, in an emergency, such a person would only be interested in saving themselves, leaving all others in the burning fuselage.. .. .Whoever asked "Who is threatened", my reply is that if, to cut costs, a small airline will employ numpties instead of qualified, experienced pilots, then everyone is threatened.
ENTREPPRUNEUR
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The 60s
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Nothing like Pay For Training to start an argument amongst pilots.... .. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Surrounded by aluminum, and the great outdoors
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There are several outfits in the U.S. who offer "internships" to foreign students, who then operate as first officers on FAA 135 flights, and pay for the privilege..it's all legally set up, but disgusting at best...then the co-pilots go home, the lucky ones get jobs at their "hometown airlines", then turn around and clamor for job protection....how strange... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: uk
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Skyguy,. .. .If I was your employer, it would make sense for me to make you redundant, you are after all costing me money. I would then save the cost of your salary by taking on another 'fly for free' 6 month trial-ee'.. .. .I was pleased to note your agreement with the concept and it is refreshing to see that people like yourself are more than happy to stand aside to allow new starter's a chance to get a little flight time! I just hope that things reach the stage where I can get captains the same way.. .. .What a load of b*****cks!. . . .In the end we all just look after no.1. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" />
I think it a little unfair to criticize the CTC 6 month placement scheme. It is a successful well established risk/cost sharing exercise. To the mutual benefit of all involved. . .. .It is indeed perhaps an ideal model for the future in replacement of the traditional 'full' airline sponsorships. Which might never return post Sept11th.... .. .WWW
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Buying your own job (but is it a job since you do pay for it), is just like digging your own grave. Sorry but I can't agree or justify it, that is really stealing someone's employment, which could have been yours later.. .Very Sad indeed that such programme exist <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 14 March 2002, 13:02: Message edited by: AMEX ]</small>
Join Date: Sep 1999
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WWW, I am not qure what difference Sept 11th. makes to airline sponsorship schemes.. .. .And this sounds nothing like the PPRuNe/Astraeus scheme.. .. .There is a big, BIG difference between (on the one hand) replacing traditional bond schemes with sponsorship schemes and (on the other hand) having F/O's pay to fly your aircraft. One you end up with a full, normal contract of employment, good training and experience. The other, they use you simply to make up numbers, then kick you out and get some other numpty with more money than sense.. .. .Yes, by all means pursue what avenues you can to further your fledgling career. But PLEASE don't undercut your colleagues, steal their jobs and, ultimately short-change yourself by going for such a scam as this.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver Island
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If a company has pilots flying for free to save money where else do they skimp? Maintenance? Training? Safety considerations such as forcing pilots to cut corners?. .. .Abrahm Lincoln saw the evil in slavery and fixed the problem.. .. .Why do we still ignore the same usuery of our fellow pilots in 2002? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> . .. .Something to think about.. .. ...................... . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />
In the US, the first "pay for training" concept was initiated by Flight Safety Inc and Comair, a Delta Airlines regional partner. It is an interesting fact (to me) that the training, which had cost about the same as a B-737 or DC-9 (maybe F-100 etc) jet type rating, was for left seat turboprop simulator training and was created so that the successful trainee was not allowed to have the type rating, thereby preventing him/her from having a much more competitive resume/C.V., which theoretically could have allowed a few Brasilia First Officers to jump ship. . .. .What a deal for the trainee, paying the about same price but receiving no rating.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Caribbean
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Inexperienced co-pilots earning little or no money whilst gaining experience.. .. .Experienced drivers sat at home unemployed.. .. .No further comment. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Join Date: Jun 2000
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Working for free is WRONG!!. .. .When I started out I had this arguement with my Dad. He said it was worth it to get my initial hours and move on....whatever it takes. I didn't buy it. I had already worked hard to get a commercial licence and deserved to be paid for my services. I didn't expect much, it was the principle. A few years later he agreed.. .. .Some have mentioned a moral dilema, implying they disagree with 'slave labour'. Others don't care, and will do anything to 'get ahead'. Why not pad the log book? Others do. Whatever it takes to get a break. I have met and worked with some such amoral types and wouldn't put my wife and kids on an airplane they were flying!. .. .If I question the ethical/moral make up of pilots that fly free, what about the companies that employ based only on the salary cost. Where else do they compromise? Where do the savings go? You can bet the executives have fancy cars and homes!. .. .Bottom line is, we pilots must value the product we bring to an airline; our skills and commitment etc. Airlines can, and do, pay fair market rates for all other costs of doing business, why not staff? Compromising yourself during the tough times doesn't make life any better during the good times.. .. .Love your job/career but remember you are a "professional". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />
Jet Blast Rat
Join Date: Jan 2001
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It strikes me that the only decent argument advanced so far against this scheme, given that it developed in a free market, is the safety aspect. Now if this organisation is working in accordance with FARs then the safety problem can only be solved by the FAA. The FARs must be too lenient. Otherwise this must be safe, as the pilots used comply with FARs.. .. .We cannot use some notion of "you could pay me to work instead". You have been undercut in the marketplace. That is the law of supply and demand. If you don't fly for the love of it then your probably in the wrong business, if you do you'll understand what these pilots are doing.
Join Date: Sep 1999
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Not that simple, SC. I certainly fly for the love of it, and I can't for the life of me understand why these pilots do it.. .. .Pilots should be paid what they're perceived to be worth. If pilots value themselves this low, who else would value them higher?. .. .If, on the other hand, they show some self-respect and professionalism, then both their self-esteem and the value others put on their services would be correspondingly higher.. .. .But as long as they prostitute themselves, they can expect to be treated no better. These pilots are responsible for dragging down the profession, for creating prostitutes of the rest of us.. .. .What next? If a captain earns, say, £60k and a relatively senior F/O offers to do the job for £40k, you think he should be allowed to do so? You would shrug your shoulders, say "Well, that's supply and demand" and tell the skipper to get out of his seat and go collect his cards?. . . . <small>[ 16 March 2002, 00:49: Message edited by: HugMonster ]</small>
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Sorry SC, I fail to see your point. Are you not training to be a PROFESSIONAL pilot, someone whose profession is to fly COMMERCIAL aircrafts.. .Well, if you do then I am sure that sooner or later you will realise that your employer, unless you work for The Salvation Army, has invested a lot of money in order to get a financial return, hopefully rated as a profitable one. Professionals in any area are expected to work to the highests standards but they are also expecting to be rewarded accordingly and believe you mem, these Professionals are not the only one who love what they do for a living..... . . . <small>[ 16 March 2002, 01:01: Message edited by: AMEX ]</small>