Co-pilot saves the day!!!
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,598
Likes: 11
From: Down south, USA.
To the various laymen on these types of threads:
1) A copilot is roughly equivalent to a co-Captain, although there many exceptions to this generalization, depending on experience, airline, military squadron or company policies etc. Some corporate aviation dpts. (Part 91=general aviation) often allow pilots to fly in either seat. Many USAF C-141 squadrons allowed a pilot with 700+ hours in the right, to also fly under supervision in the left seat as First Pilot (also in Navy transport or patrol squadrons, known as 2P), but apparently this was not common in the C-130.
2) When on the ground in a two-person jet or turboprop cockpit, (in the US) normally the First Officer does the walk-around and after engine start until takeoff checks, for example, he/she does most of the checking and setting electrics, APU, pressurization, and hydraulics plus setting the flaps, trim, weight book for correct bug speed numbers....this is part of it. Also calls on various radios for IFR clearances, start + push/powerback, taxi clearances....even figuring weight and balance plus ensuring that no cargo pallets will shift, causing a crash.
This only describes some of the ground duties in the months when the cockpit is not hot...on the first of three, even six or seven flights in one long duty period, without rest or solid nutrition. When I was in the right seat in the blue sweatbox years ago, Captains sometimes said that it was the hardest cockpit job in the whole airline.
Our FOs on the older two-person machines are reportedly on average much busier than any widebody FE. Therefore the word copilot, as used by the media and most laymen, is often totally misleading and meaningless. And at the US regional airlines-all this work, up to 9 or more legs per day, for not much above the federal minimum wage, because the airline mgmt lobby group (RAA and the ATA) ganged up with certain court jurisdictions and many Congressmen ( a la Delta and COMAIR), possibly with certain White House and/or DOT "staff", to keep it this way.
1) A copilot is roughly equivalent to a co-Captain, although there many exceptions to this generalization, depending on experience, airline, military squadron or company policies etc. Some corporate aviation dpts. (Part 91=general aviation) often allow pilots to fly in either seat. Many USAF C-141 squadrons allowed a pilot with 700+ hours in the right, to also fly under supervision in the left seat as First Pilot (also in Navy transport or patrol squadrons, known as 2P), but apparently this was not common in the C-130.
2) When on the ground in a two-person jet or turboprop cockpit, (in the US) normally the First Officer does the walk-around and after engine start until takeoff checks, for example, he/she does most of the checking and setting electrics, APU, pressurization, and hydraulics plus setting the flaps, trim, weight book for correct bug speed numbers....this is part of it. Also calls on various radios for IFR clearances, start + push/powerback, taxi clearances....even figuring weight and balance plus ensuring that no cargo pallets will shift, causing a crash.
This only describes some of the ground duties in the months when the cockpit is not hot...on the first of three, even six or seven flights in one long duty period, without rest or solid nutrition. When I was in the right seat in the blue sweatbox years ago, Captains sometimes said that it was the hardest cockpit job in the whole airline.
Our FOs on the older two-person machines are reportedly on average much busier than any widebody FE. Therefore the word copilot, as used by the media and most laymen, is often totally misleading and meaningless. And at the US regional airlines-all this work, up to 9 or more legs per day, for not much above the federal minimum wage, because the airline mgmt lobby group (RAA and the ATA) ganged up with certain court jurisdictions and many Congressmen ( a la Delta and COMAIR), possibly with certain White House and/or DOT "staff", to keep it this way.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 7th May 2003 at 03:37.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
From: Arkansas
Some FO's are just as good and better than some captains. Some captains are just as good and better than some FO's.
Being captain does not mean the more experienced pilot is in the left seat. It means the more senior pilot is in the left seat. I've known great FO's, I've known weak FO's. I've known great captains, I've known weak captains.
I'm a right seat gray beard and have a lot more experience than most captains I fly with. The vast majority of the guys I crew with recognize and appreciate that, some do not.
My point is that most FO's have the same ability as the captain. My airline does not hire FO's, they hire captains. You get my drift.
By the way, the right seat makes me look 30 years younger. I don't even have to dye my hair.
Being captain does not mean the more experienced pilot is in the left seat. It means the more senior pilot is in the left seat. I've known great FO's, I've known weak FO's. I've known great captains, I've known weak captains.
I'm a right seat gray beard and have a lot more experience than most captains I fly with. The vast majority of the guys I crew with recognize and appreciate that, some do not.
My point is that most FO's have the same ability as the captain. My airline does not hire FO's, they hire captains. You get my drift.
By the way, the right seat makes me look 30 years younger. I don't even have to dye my hair.
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,598
Likes: 11
From: Down south, USA.
Acbus: You have a valid point about some FOs. I checked out as captain over four years ago in a twin-turbofan; but what the public often fails to realize is that many of us choose to fly planes with almost no automation (or so that we can hold a captain's seat), which also means much more work.
And many of our fellow pilots (at this company), before their shining 'debut' on the A-320, 757 etc, only flew the older planes which had a three-pilot cockpit, i.e. C-130, C-141, B-727, DC-10 etc, and many of them have no idea of what is involved: let's correct that-some have little idea what is involved in the old, two-pilot cockpits. This became very apparent during the merger.
And many of our fellow pilots (at this company), before their shining 'debut' on the A-320, 757 etc, only flew the older planes which had a three-pilot cockpit, i.e. C-130, C-141, B-727, DC-10 etc, and many of them have no idea of what is involved: let's correct that-some have little idea what is involved in the old, two-pilot cockpits. This became very apparent during the merger.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 8th May 2003 at 13:53.
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 160
Likes: 0
From: Two hundred baro
Thanks for setting me straight, Ignition Overide.
So your company has some pilots who "only flew the older planes which had a three-pilot cockpit, i.e. C-130, C-141, B-727, DC-10 etc"? So does mine.
But, Gosh, I didn't realise. Someone better tell the company. After four years on a 727, with three crewmembers, they should never have let me loose on the 757. After that length of time, I cannot have the faintest idea of "what is involved".
I guess maybe they already know. I am encouraged not to fly it It's got a magic box that lays down a pink string road for me to follow, in case I get lost. After all, there's one less person to ask where we're going.
And I can't fart and look all innocent.
So your company has some pilots who "only flew the older planes which had a three-pilot cockpit, i.e. C-130, C-141, B-727, DC-10 etc"? So does mine.
But, Gosh, I didn't realise. Someone better tell the company. After four years on a 727, with three crewmembers, they should never have let me loose on the 757. After that length of time, I cannot have the faintest idea of "what is involved".
I guess maybe they already know. I am encouraged not to fly it It's got a magic box that lays down a pink string road for me to follow, in case I get lost. After all, there's one less person to ask where we're going.
And I can't fart and look all innocent.
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Posts: n/a
It's a fact, based upon personal observation, that when the electronics give up and one has to revert to basics, some pilots are all-at-sea. They're usually the Approved School guys who've never flown the older kit, apart from a few hours basic Instrument Rating stuff in a light piston twin.
Apologies for digressing, but I did'nt start it !
Apologies for digressing, but I did'nt start it !
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,598
Likes: 11
From: Down south, USA.
Right Cat 1. My comments referred to a unique situation at my company during a very awkward merger in the late 80's, during which certain Merger Committee types arrogantly & ignorantly looked down on the 100-122 seat jets (one of our fleets) as "light-twins", to quote some of them, in order to protect every wide-body Captain seat while pleading their desperate case ("expectations") with the seniority list Arbitrator. My generalized comments might have been out of context. Those who have not experienced such a merger, in which only one company has widebody aircraft, might be surprised at the levels of self-righteousness which are often displayed by whichever group has the most to lose, in terms of potential earnings and assumptions made about career progression, when hired.
Pardon me if I implied anything about other airlines and their pilots, or any disrespect; if read that way, it was not intentional on my part. That "magenta highway" and VNAV is pretty nice, even if the autothrottles were on MEL a bit during my last month on the 757.
Pardon me if I implied anything about other airlines and their pilots, or any disrespect; if read that way, it was not intentional on my part. That "magenta highway" and VNAV is pretty nice, even if the autothrottles were on MEL a bit during my last month on the 757.
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 628
Likes: 0
From: Ireland
I have to admit I am a touch surprised at the length of and the discussion on this thread. Particularly the whole Captain/Co-Pilot/F/O thing.
I, in my innocence always assumed it was rather obvious. Any layman reading this or it seems some lesser experienced pilots may be a little confused.
This is my take on the whole Co-Pilot issue.
Airlines have a rank system, Captain, First Officer, Second Officer.
An aircraft may have a Pilot and and a Co-Pilot and even a third pilot. The Pilot is the Captain of the aircraft. That applies even to puddle jumpers like the Cessna 150. Even a student pilot is Captain when solo.
Terms like pilot flying and pilot not flying doesn't take away from the fact that only one of them can be the Captain/Pilot of the aircraft. When two four barred ranking Captains are on board one is the Captain/Pilot and the other is the Co-Pilot of the aircraft while both remain Captains in rank.
Confused????
No but suddenly I can see how some might be.
I, in my innocence always assumed it was rather obvious. Any layman reading this or it seems some lesser experienced pilots may be a little confused.
This is my take on the whole Co-Pilot issue.
Airlines have a rank system, Captain, First Officer, Second Officer.
An aircraft may have a Pilot and and a Co-Pilot and even a third pilot. The Pilot is the Captain of the aircraft. That applies even to puddle jumpers like the Cessna 150. Even a student pilot is Captain when solo.
Terms like pilot flying and pilot not flying doesn't take away from the fact that only one of them can be the Captain/Pilot of the aircraft. When two four barred ranking Captains are on board one is the Captain/Pilot and the other is the Co-Pilot of the aircraft while both remain Captains in rank.
Confused????
No but suddenly I can see how some might be.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
From: Arkansas
Corsair,
I believe the issue centers on the "amazement" that a first officer was able to land the jet without the captain.
It's not a question of who is in command but, "a first officer was able to land the jet without a captain??!!"
Come on....
I believe the issue centers on the "amazement" that a first officer was able to land the jet without the captain.
It's not a question of who is in command but, "a first officer was able to land the jet without a captain??!!"
Come on....
