Official : British Airways Retires Concorde (merged)
Controversial, moi?
Anybody know if Mr. Branson has made any approaches to Air France with a view to purchasing their aircraft?
The fact they will be available several months before October will give him cause for joy because he will then be able to show BA how it should be operated.
Very odd that he hasn't made any bookings for simulator time yet.
He is serious about operating them isn't he?
The fact they will be available several months before October will give him cause for joy because he will then be able to show BA how it should be operated.
Very odd that he hasn't made any bookings for simulator time yet.
He is serious about operating them isn't he?
Paxing All Over The World
M.Mouse, clearly this is not a serious post.
Any negotiations and legal contracts would take four to six months. The Certification would (I think) have to be redone by VS, to demonstrate that they could operate the a/c in the approved manner. Therefore, the a/c (BA or AF) would have to leave service and be out for some weeks as a minimum.
Booking simulator time is irrelevant as its use will be declining and, by the time it is needed for the 'new' crews, no one else would be using it.
Looks like another personal jab at RB, for no purpose. Standard pprune behaviour.
Any negotiations and legal contracts would take four to six months. The Certification would (I think) have to be redone by VS, to demonstrate that they could operate the a/c in the approved manner. Therefore, the a/c (BA or AF) would have to leave service and be out for some weeks as a minimum.
Booking simulator time is irrelevant as its use will be declining and, by the time it is needed for the 'new' crews, no one else would be using it.
Looks like another personal jab at RB, for no purpose. Standard pprune behaviour.
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Perhaps it's because RB spends all his time making personal jabs at BA in order to get cheap publicity? If the negotiations need four months then he can still have the Air France aircraft under new ownership before the BA aircraft retire so why isn't he forging ahead right now instead of bleating on? Quite how VS would re-certify the aircraft with no manufacturer support whatsoever is an interesting question, one that suggests that the aircraft would be out of service significantly longer than a few weeks minimum (ie permanently).
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See no reason for BA not to be willing to sell to VS, other than perhaps loss of prestige. Would not look very good, if VS was able to safely and economically operate the Concorde.
Like someone else said, BA was essentially given the aircraft by the Goverment. That means they belong to the people, since they bore the cost of development and one could argue, perhaps even the cost for the first few years, until BA went private.
BA does not wish to sell, for whatever reasons, but imho they should be forced to. The Concorde is a technical marvel with many years left to fly, believe BA was saying with upgrades she could go to 2010 or beyond.
"In museums to stay, no way BA"
Like someone else said, BA was essentially given the aircraft by the Goverment. That means they belong to the people, since they bore the cost of development and one could argue, perhaps even the cost for the first few years, until BA went private.
BA does not wish to sell, for whatever reasons, but imho they should be forced to. The Concorde is a technical marvel with many years left to fly, believe BA was saying with upgrades she could go to 2010 or beyond.
"In museums to stay, no way BA"
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There is now an excellent FAQ on the BA Online Media Centre about the retirement. It's great to see them waking up and going on the offensive against the bearded moron.
The relevant quotes I think are these:
and......what made me laugh.....
Full Text
The relevant quotes I think are these:
British Airways predecessors paid the manufacturers more than Ł155 million for the Concorde fleet (source:1977/78 Report and Accounts) and over the following 27 years of operation British Airways has invested more than Ł1 billion in the fleet.
The Concorde book value was written down to nil in 1979 and subsequent capital investments to 1983 were also written off to nil. (source: 1987 Prospectus on British Airways privatisation)
In March 1984 the government ended its involvement with Concorde when British Airways assumed full responsibility for Concorde support costs. British Airways Board paid Ł16.5 million to acquire the government’s stock of spare parts and was released from the profit share scheme under which the government collected 80 per cent of Concorde operating surpluses.
In 1987 the government privatised British Airways and collected more than Ł900 million for selling its interest in the airline, including Concorde.
The Concorde book value was written down to nil in 1979 and subsequent capital investments to 1983 were also written off to nil. (source: 1987 Prospectus on British Airways privatisation)
In March 1984 the government ended its involvement with Concorde when British Airways assumed full responsibility for Concorde support costs. British Airways Board paid Ł16.5 million to acquire the government’s stock of spare parts and was released from the profit share scheme under which the government collected 80 per cent of Concorde operating surpluses.
In 1987 the government privatised British Airways and collected more than Ł900 million for selling its interest in the airline, including Concorde.
Did British Airways offer to sell a redundant Concorde to a music industry figure?
We have not offered to sell Concorde to anyone.
We have not offered to sell Concorde to anyone.
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Branson won't do it if the business case does not add up. I would imagine the team he speaks of is doing just that, and they would need a good few weeks to figure it out.
It would seem unlikely to me that one airline could justify the cost, it would need at least two, or three.
At the end of the day, without the support of Airbus the aircraft is consigned to the museum. I always thought some rich Saudi would buy a few and run it as a larger executive jet, irrespective of the cost.
It would seem unlikely to me that one airline could justify the cost, it would need at least two, or three.
At the end of the day, without the support of Airbus the aircraft is consigned to the museum. I always thought some rich Saudi would buy a few and run it as a larger executive jet, irrespective of the cost.
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Rod Eddington - Question Time Appearance
Eddington maintained the reasons for retiring the aircraft were:
1) It was not economic to keep the aircraft flying
2) It did not make a profit
3) Airbus was withdrawing it's support
Given that Airbus have announced they WOULD support Virgin with spare parts etc, only 1 & 2 above actually apply to BA.
Eddington, from watching his performance, must believe himself to be the final authority on whether Concorde should be retired. However if they genuinely cannot make a profit from this service then he is right to withdraw it from service.
Personally, I think it is a massive publicity stunt by BA and they will moth-ball the aircraft, only to reintroduce the service when economic conditions are more favourable.
1) It was not economic to keep the aircraft flying
2) It did not make a profit
3) Airbus was withdrawing it's support
Given that Airbus have announced they WOULD support Virgin with spare parts etc, only 1 & 2 above actually apply to BA.
Eddington, from watching his performance, must believe himself to be the final authority on whether Concorde should be retired. However if they genuinely cannot make a profit from this service then he is right to withdraw it from service.
Personally, I think it is a massive publicity stunt by BA and they will moth-ball the aircraft, only to reintroduce the service when economic conditions are more favourable.
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I am sure Concorde is not making a profit at the moment, but it is hardly suprising
Eddington seems to be doing what the Tory's did when they were closing the railway lines in the 80's
'
1) He has changed the time (supposedly at US business peoples request) from its normal 10.30 to 18.30. BA1 was busier that BA3 (in my limited experience)
2) Where have all the charters gone. Goodwood et al seemed to contribute very nicely to BA's Concorde profitability but these do not seem to have got going again
3) BA have reduced the in-flight service, reduced the cabin staff and stopped the nice little touches that made it fun as well as practical.
All in all, a general run down in the service. Little by little he has killed it off.
I'm afraid I can't see BA moth-balling the aircraft, it would cost a lot to maintain the crews, parts, inventory, engineering etc for their eventual return, and with Air Chance giving up the ghost, I am sure AIrbus would (rightly) charge more.
Eddington seems to be doing what the Tory's did when they were closing the railway lines in the 80's
'
1) He has changed the time (supposedly at US business peoples request) from its normal 10.30 to 18.30. BA1 was busier that BA3 (in my limited experience)
2) Where have all the charters gone. Goodwood et al seemed to contribute very nicely to BA's Concorde profitability but these do not seem to have got going again
3) BA have reduced the in-flight service, reduced the cabin staff and stopped the nice little touches that made it fun as well as practical.
All in all, a general run down in the service. Little by little he has killed it off.
I'm afraid I can't see BA moth-balling the aircraft, it would cost a lot to maintain the crews, parts, inventory, engineering etc for their eventual return, and with Air Chance giving up the ghost, I am sure AIrbus would (rightly) charge more.
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Answering the question "where have all the charters gone?"
This got a bit lost in the aftermath of the Paris crash, but a couple of weeks before BA put out the word that some cracks had been found in the spars of the Concorde fleet and they were no longer doing charters. I had been talking to BA about a charter at this time. They said they were concentrating exclusively on the transatlantic flights henceforth, to reduce the number of rotations.
This got a bit lost in the aftermath of the Paris crash, but a couple of weeks before BA put out the word that some cracks had been found in the spars of the Concorde fleet and they were no longer doing charters. I had been talking to BA about a charter at this time. They said they were concentrating exclusively on the transatlantic flights henceforth, to reduce the number of rotations.
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The BA charter programme was still going stong up until the day the fleet was grounded. They may not have been taking any more bookings for aircraft but were going ahead with the current bookings well into 2001. After this they planned to scale them back to protect airframe life, but not stop them as they are a very good revenue stream. The "round the bays" only used half an aircraft reference flight.
BA could have taken the risk with charters over the past year but did not want to do this and face letting people down....or worst not have a standby for the BA001!
The issue was they they only had 5 aircraft and needed 6 to do charters along with the BA003/4, at certain times they had only 3 aircraft servicable. eg 1 in 3 month check and 1 in a week long service check. If another went tech they were in trouble, hence the BA002 re-timings we seen.
This year there was big gap in the 3 monnth check requirements (as they only had 5 aircraft not 7) ,so charters would have been very possible.
Over the past 2 weeks I have seen BA flying all 4 servicable aircraft (C,D,E,G) regulary, so should be flying charters NOW!!!! and making some more money to off-set the Ł84M write of costs
During the day 3 aircraft are kicking about LHR doing nothing ahead of the BA001 departure at 18:30
They could easily be flying "round the bay" trips from the 10:30 slot, and then if the aircraft behaves during the short flight, it has been given a run out ahead of the evening's BA001, either as the main or standby.
Come on BA, you know what the public and your shareholder want. I hope they do not simply wait utill October to do just a few token flights around the UK
BA could have taken the risk with charters over the past year but did not want to do this and face letting people down....or worst not have a standby for the BA001!
The issue was they they only had 5 aircraft and needed 6 to do charters along with the BA003/4, at certain times they had only 3 aircraft servicable. eg 1 in 3 month check and 1 in a week long service check. If another went tech they were in trouble, hence the BA002 re-timings we seen.
This year there was big gap in the 3 monnth check requirements (as they only had 5 aircraft not 7) ,so charters would have been very possible.
Over the past 2 weeks I have seen BA flying all 4 servicable aircraft (C,D,E,G) regulary, so should be flying charters NOW!!!! and making some more money to off-set the Ł84M write of costs
During the day 3 aircraft are kicking about LHR doing nothing ahead of the BA001 departure at 18:30
They could easily be flying "round the bay" trips from the 10:30 slot, and then if the aircraft behaves during the short flight, it has been given a run out ahead of the evening's BA001, either as the main or standby.
Come on BA, you know what the public and your shareholder want. I hope they do not simply wait utill October to do just a few token flights around the UK
Rebel PPRuNer
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Perhaps AF could loan their Concs to BA from May to October to increase aircraft availability? But then BA might run lots of flights and the French public might ask why their birds were retired early... couldn't have that!
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Just thought I would add my tuppence worth by announcing to the world at large that if nothing else, the early demise of the long sleek thing has given me a much needed kick up the derrier and made me go out and book a flight. In August I and Mrs Lawyerboy will be flying off to NY for a few days. Not sure I could live with myself if I'd let the opportunity slip.
If the Music Industry Figure comes along and resurrects concorde then so be it; I suppose it'll simply mean I get another chance at some point in the future.
Yours rather amazed that he's about to fly on the damn thing,
LB.
If the Music Industry Figure comes along and resurrects concorde then so be it; I suppose it'll simply mean I get another chance at some point in the future.
Yours rather amazed that he's about to fly on the damn thing,
LB.
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I too am doing the same thing....not booked yet but just sorting out a date to go.Sod the cash,it's a small price to pay....I too could not live with myself if I missed yhe opportunity.
And as much as I admire Branson,even if he did manage to operate it,it's just not the same as the BA experience!
777
And as much as I admire Branson,even if he did manage to operate it,it's just not the same as the BA experience!
777
Too mean to buy a long personal title
The radio news was repoting this morning that Branson is meeting Airbus today. (I'd thought that it was tomorrow, but same difference.) http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0...323915,00.html has a reference to this. We shall no doubt have to wait and see, and then decipher the spin from all sides.
[Edited to add:]
It sounds like it was a very one sided conversation. http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/030521/80/e0imt.html
[Edited to add:]
It sounds like it was a very one sided conversation. http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/030521/80/e0imt.html
Last edited by Globaliser; 22nd May 2003 at 02:20.
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There should be no room for spin on this one. If Airbus are true to their reasoning then the answer to RB will be a resounding "Non" - perhaps RB should go back and talk to Virgin Atlantic about what they could do with a business jet and follow the LH/PrivatAir model.
There is a lot of sentimentality around about Concorde, but if the manufacturer says that's it, then that's it.
There is a lot of sentimentality around about Concorde, but if the manufacturer says that's it, then that's it.
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Just to play devils advocate, I wonder if BA/AF Concorde flight crews are being forced re negotiate their contracts to prevent a "jumping ship " in the event that bearded one did purchase a few Concordes.I would have thought that would be a way of making life very difficult or at least helping put a fly in the ointment and induce a delay in resurrecting the supersonic service.
If I was Concorde crew and was perfectly happy flying her I'd certainly jump ship if it meant going back to flying jumbos......
If I was Concorde crew and was perfectly happy flying her I'd certainly jump ship if it meant going back to flying jumbos......
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Concorde flight crews are on the same contract as every other BA pilot and are not renegotiating them on an individual basis. Given that Concorde is arguably the most senior fleet in the company, most of the pilots could easily gain a command on just about any other fleet in the company, with much better pay than they'd get at Virgin and a final salary pension scheme to boot. I don't think BA are too worried about pilots jumping ship. Sadly the Flight Engineers are in a much worse position as there are no more F/E jobs within BA. I'm sure some would be tempted to follow the aircraft if they kept flying, but as that isn't going to happen for all the sound reasons previously stated this is a fairly hypothetical argument.
Hand Solo
Virgin face many difficulties, most discussed at length already, in trying to resurrect Concorde, and it will not happen.
If however, by some miracle it did, a lack of current, trained crews would not be a problem.
The F/Os would be extremely unlikely to move, for the reasons you've outlined. Far too much to lose. Commands on other fleets, combined with longevity pay and a FSS pension, mean they would have to be mad to leave BA for a less certain future at Virgin. So plan on at least a couple going!
The E/Os would go like a shot, having no alternative other than re-deployment to a desk.
The Captains have their FSS pensions safely crystallised and could all resign and draw them immediately. All have demonstrated a preference for job satisfaction over salary by bidding onto Concorde in the first place (now resolved with the new pay deal), several are within their last eighteen months in BA with none having more than three years left to go when Concorde stops. Most would lose relatively little by leaving early.
In short, whilst BA could retain the F/Os, it has little hold over the Captains, should a more interesting option become available, even if it was back into the RHS.
My fear would be, far from Virgin not being able to recruit sufficient crews, that I get trampled to death in the rush to apply!
Interesting day-dreaming, but as you say, it isn't going to happen!
Regards
Bellerophon
Virgin face many difficulties, most discussed at length already, in trying to resurrect Concorde, and it will not happen.
If however, by some miracle it did, a lack of current, trained crews would not be a problem.
The F/Os would be extremely unlikely to move, for the reasons you've outlined. Far too much to lose. Commands on other fleets, combined with longevity pay and a FSS pension, mean they would have to be mad to leave BA for a less certain future at Virgin. So plan on at least a couple going!
The E/Os would go like a shot, having no alternative other than re-deployment to a desk.
The Captains have their FSS pensions safely crystallised and could all resign and draw them immediately. All have demonstrated a preference for job satisfaction over salary by bidding onto Concorde in the first place (now resolved with the new pay deal), several are within their last eighteen months in BA with none having more than three years left to go when Concorde stops. Most would lose relatively little by leaving early.
In short, whilst BA could retain the F/Os, it has little hold over the Captains, should a more interesting option become available, even if it was back into the RHS.
My fear would be, far from Virgin not being able to recruit sufficient crews, that I get trampled to death in the rush to apply!
Interesting day-dreaming, but as you say, it isn't going to happen!
Regards
Bellerophon
Too mean to buy a long personal title
Buried at the bottom of today's Sunday Times article about "VS to buy BA, BA to buy VS" was this:-
I wonder whether "last week" means the week just finished, or the week before that - and if the former, whether Airbus told him that if AF pulls out, support costs become prohibitive for any small fleet, but if someone takes over the AF fleet then support costs can stay at current levels?
Branson has written to Jean-Cyril Spinetta, the Air France chairman, offering to buy the airline’s Concordes, which are to be retired in October. “We would be keen to either work with you in operating your Concordes from the UK or to acquire your Concordes outright,” he wrote last week.
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Air France cease their services next week, with flights to museums already planned.
Check out
the latest Concorde news.
Check out
the latest Concorde news.