Buzz v Ryanair at the 11th Hour!
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Heavy Glider
Asset stripping is not clever. Buzz is not being turned around it is being liquidated. True, some staff are being offered jobs, but this is because Ryanair needs pilots and not because of any legal or moral obligation toward the staff. The clever part of this take-over is in the way KLM is being manipulated by Ryanair. KLM have no pride, they are now doing most of the dirty work for Ryanair in advance of the sale.
Also I fail to see why airfares should be inversely proportional to the size of the airline. I think it more likely that, heaven forbid, when Ryanair have a virtual monopoly they will raise fares. This will not be good for passengers.
Asset stripping is not clever. Buzz is not being turned around it is being liquidated. True, some staff are being offered jobs, but this is because Ryanair needs pilots and not because of any legal or moral obligation toward the staff. The clever part of this take-over is in the way KLM is being manipulated by Ryanair. KLM have no pride, they are now doing most of the dirty work for Ryanair in advance of the sale.
Also I fail to see why airfares should be inversely proportional to the size of the airline. I think it more likely that, heaven forbid, when Ryanair have a virtual monopoly they will raise fares. This will not be good for passengers.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Sorry guys it may be painful, but some facts have to be stated:
1. If FR and the service it offers is so cr@4P why will 14 million passengers fly with it this year ?
2. If its so badly managed why will it be the most profitable airline in the world this year ?
3. Why does it have one of the best pilot pay/roster packages in the industry ?
Its called success ! Successful airlines will prosper, old fashioned Dinosaurs with staff who long for the 1930's culture and attitudes will not. We have to change and adapt, or we become nothing more then DoDo's.
People have short memories, airlines come and go (they always have and always will), you might work for the greatest outfit in the World but if it doesn't make a profit it has no right to exist.
This arguement will never be popular with pilots, because quite rightly they are concerned with technical excellence in their field, but you need to have an airline to sell that excellence to.
If we are not careful the British/US airline pilot will become a thing of the past, as is the British/US merchant seaman. We need to be flexible and realistic in these diifercult times.
OK you can now do your worst, my tin hat is in place.
1. If FR and the service it offers is so cr@4P why will 14 million passengers fly with it this year ?
2. If its so badly managed why will it be the most profitable airline in the world this year ?
3. Why does it have one of the best pilot pay/roster packages in the industry ?
Its called success ! Successful airlines will prosper, old fashioned Dinosaurs with staff who long for the 1930's culture and attitudes will not. We have to change and adapt, or we become nothing more then DoDo's.
People have short memories, airlines come and go (they always have and always will), you might work for the greatest outfit in the World but if it doesn't make a profit it has no right to exist.
This arguement will never be popular with pilots, because quite rightly they are concerned with technical excellence in their field, but you need to have an airline to sell that excellence to.
If we are not careful the British/US airline pilot will become a thing of the past, as is the British/US merchant seaman. We need to be flexible and realistic in these diifercult times.
OK you can now do your worst, my tin hat is in place.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don’t think that it is unreasonable for me to expect my employer to honour my contract of employment. If that makes me a dinosaur so be it, remember dinosaurs ruled the Earth for 1000 million years, we have been here only 3 million. Furthermore they didn’t leave such a mess.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just what are the terms of your contract,inquisitor? If it's that your employer can never make you redundant,then I'm sure we would all like that.
From where I am sitting,it would appear that KLM will shut down the airline with or without Ryanair.If RYR do not buy it,600 will lose their job's.If they do,200 will lose them and what's more,those offered job's will earn more money.Surely that's better than shutting the door's with all out of work? Isn't it? Having been made redundant before,I know what it's like and sympathise with those affected,but it is a business after all,and one that as has been said before is doing very well.Those on here that truly believe that it will eventually close are not living in the real world.Like it or not RYR are here to stay.
The 'where the hell is HHN' issue is well and truly tiresome.When will people realise that,as has been said before on this thread,that people will vote with their feet.The routes to and from HHN are very successful so it tends to dis-prove all the nonsense spoken about this.
I think people should wake up to the fact RYR are here to stay,and are every bit as proffessional as any other airline and that it also employ's many people who enjoy working for them,who earn an extremely good wage and that number include's myself!
From where I am sitting,it would appear that KLM will shut down the airline with or without Ryanair.If RYR do not buy it,600 will lose their job's.If they do,200 will lose them and what's more,those offered job's will earn more money.Surely that's better than shutting the door's with all out of work? Isn't it? Having been made redundant before,I know what it's like and sympathise with those affected,but it is a business after all,and one that as has been said before is doing very well.Those on here that truly believe that it will eventually close are not living in the real world.Like it or not RYR are here to stay.
The 'where the hell is HHN' issue is well and truly tiresome.When will people realise that,as has been said before on this thread,that people will vote with their feet.The routes to and from HHN are very successful so it tends to dis-prove all the nonsense spoken about this.
I think people should wake up to the fact RYR are here to stay,and are every bit as proffessional as any other airline and that it also employ's many people who enjoy working for them,who earn an extremely good wage and that number include's myself!
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: UK
Age: 46
Posts: 642
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This started as an interesting thread as to what may happen to Buzz in its dying hours, but has developed into the usual pissing match that occurs whenever the word "Ryanair" is typed into this website.
For those who are in ignorant bliss, the matter about contracts is like this. Buzz employees who were told they are keeping their jobs were to be TUPE'D into a new company called Buzzaway, which Buzz would then sell to Ryanair. Buzzaway would then operate a number of Ryanair services, in Ryanair colours, but under Buzzaways AOC. Ryanair have then said you are not to sign the Buzzaway contract of employment you are to sign a different Ryanair contract and if you dont you will have dismissed yourself and will not get any redundancy. There is no getting away from Ryanair have acted illegally.
Is it not to late for the deal to be scrubbed and a more descent and upstanding business person to come in and take over Buzz? If I was as such and had the money I would do the following:
1. KLM take the 146s of my hands - they seemed quite happy to do this for Ryanair.
2. Initial operation for the summer would be with the 6 737s from ILFC, possibly get hold of the first two 737s as well (see below).
3. Get a new marketing team in. Its harsh but the present incumbents failed to get enough people on the planes.
4. Start limited scale operation by late April so as not to lose slots. Initial routes to Berlin, Murcia, Paris, Frankfurt (with a strong "flying to the heart of Frankfurt not the Hahn) campaign, Bergerac, Poitiers, Limoges, Jerez, Bordeaux and Marseille.
5. Full operation to start again by mid May (say for May half term holiday week).
6. Make inquiries as to going back into Bournemouth (the punters are not stupid, they know this was Ryanairs doing). Possibly get hold of the two Pembroke 737s (ZA & ZB) to do this.
7. No more consetionary rates for KLM positioning crews on the Amsterdam. They pay the going rate, and as they are often booked last minute it will make a few quid!
8. I wouldnt be worried about Ryanair already selling tickets on routes operated by Buzz. They needed the Buzz aircraft, slots and crews to do this, they wouldnt have them. Treat them with the disdain they treat others - shut up and put up, or take us to court. They would soon back down. Any pax who have booked with Ryanair on so called "buzz routes" would be offered special rates, ie £1 plus taxes, provided they present there Ryanair confirmation to Buzz reservations.
Thoughts???
For those who are in ignorant bliss, the matter about contracts is like this. Buzz employees who were told they are keeping their jobs were to be TUPE'D into a new company called Buzzaway, which Buzz would then sell to Ryanair. Buzzaway would then operate a number of Ryanair services, in Ryanair colours, but under Buzzaways AOC. Ryanair have then said you are not to sign the Buzzaway contract of employment you are to sign a different Ryanair contract and if you dont you will have dismissed yourself and will not get any redundancy. There is no getting away from Ryanair have acted illegally.
Is it not to late for the deal to be scrubbed and a more descent and upstanding business person to come in and take over Buzz? If I was as such and had the money I would do the following:
1. KLM take the 146s of my hands - they seemed quite happy to do this for Ryanair.
2. Initial operation for the summer would be with the 6 737s from ILFC, possibly get hold of the first two 737s as well (see below).
3. Get a new marketing team in. Its harsh but the present incumbents failed to get enough people on the planes.
4. Start limited scale operation by late April so as not to lose slots. Initial routes to Berlin, Murcia, Paris, Frankfurt (with a strong "flying to the heart of Frankfurt not the Hahn) campaign, Bergerac, Poitiers, Limoges, Jerez, Bordeaux and Marseille.
5. Full operation to start again by mid May (say for May half term holiday week).
6. Make inquiries as to going back into Bournemouth (the punters are not stupid, they know this was Ryanairs doing). Possibly get hold of the two Pembroke 737s (ZA & ZB) to do this.
7. No more consetionary rates for KLM positioning crews on the Amsterdam. They pay the going rate, and as they are often booked last minute it will make a few quid!
8. I wouldnt be worried about Ryanair already selling tickets on routes operated by Buzz. They needed the Buzz aircraft, slots and crews to do this, they wouldnt have them. Treat them with the disdain they treat others - shut up and put up, or take us to court. They would soon back down. Any pax who have booked with Ryanair on so called "buzz routes" would be offered special rates, ie £1 plus taxes, provided they present there Ryanair confirmation to Buzz reservations.
Thoughts???
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Dewdrop and others. try and get this fact straight. There is no real compaint about the fact that Ryanair are taking over buzz. The complaint is the fact that LEGALLY he takes over the existing staff contracts and then starts to NEGOTIATE (defined as a two-way consultation process) to change them to the ones he wants. This he has not done. Do you have a contract ? Whatever it may say, don't you expect it to be honoured ? Or do you feel the employer can just tear it up whenever he feels like it ? That is what is happening.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: ireland
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i guess i am not the first to hear that bmibaby are next on the list for ryanair? are bmibaby losing money too? is there any truth in this? i guess mol wants the slots from EMA, plenty of easy money to be made there using the ryanair method.... EMA/DUB in itself could be as popular as STN/DUB. watch this space.
with this kind of treatment
Guest
Posts: n/a
Herod - I agree with what you say but would again stress two points :
1. Is the structure of the sale the transfer of an existing business ? (sounds straight forward but in the case of Buzz it seems not).
2. If something illegal is being done as you state it needs to be challenged.
1. Is the structure of the sale the transfer of an existing business ? (sounds straight forward but in the case of Buzz it seems not).
2. If something illegal is being done as you state it needs to be challenged.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
see release put out today by ananova:
Union leaders were seeking urgent meetings with Ryanair today after the airline's expected take-over of low cost carrier Buzz failed to go ahead.
The Irish airline announced last night it was still waiting for final clearance of the deal from the Office of Fair Trading.
All Buzz services ended today although Ryanair plans to reopen 13 routes on May 1.
Hundreds of jobs are being lost and many workers turned up at Stansted Airport in Essex today expecting to receive redundancy pay.
Many of the former check-in staff and other administrative workers have found other jobs but were left "confused'' by the latest development.
Ed Blisset, an official with GMB Union said: "It is a complete mess. These people were told they were going to be made redundant and have made other arrangements.
"They are being treated despicably and we will do our best to try to find out what is happening.''
Ryanair said it had received "enormous assistance'' from the OFT and did not expect difficulty in obtaining clearance for the deal "in due course''.
Union leaders were seeking urgent meetings with Ryanair today after the airline's expected take-over of low cost carrier Buzz failed to go ahead.
The Irish airline announced last night it was still waiting for final clearance of the deal from the Office of Fair Trading.
All Buzz services ended today although Ryanair plans to reopen 13 routes on May 1.
Hundreds of jobs are being lost and many workers turned up at Stansted Airport in Essex today expecting to receive redundancy pay.
Many of the former check-in staff and other administrative workers have found other jobs but were left "confused'' by the latest development.
Ed Blisset, an official with GMB Union said: "It is a complete mess. These people were told they were going to be made redundant and have made other arrangements.
"They are being treated despicably and we will do our best to try to find out what is happening.''
Ryanair said it had received "enormous assistance'' from the OFT and did not expect difficulty in obtaining clearance for the deal "in due course''.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: underground
Posts: 227
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BBC Online @ 1400
Buzz takeover delayed
Ryanair is keen to restart Buzz flights
Ryanair has said jobs are at risk unless it gets "urgent" approval for its takeover of rival low cost operator Buzz.
The deal had been due to be cleared by the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) on Tuesday.
But a decision has been delayed until 28 April, amid continuing competition concerns.
That would leave Ryanair just three days to complete staff training and other preparations before the planned relaunch of Buzz services.
Job threat
Both Ryanair and Buzz's parent company KLM have said they cannot envisage any problems in gaining approval for the deal.
But in a statement Ryanair warned it needed a decision urgently "in order to save the core operation of Buzz and preserve up to 130 jobs at a time of crisis in the aviation industry".
Without OFT approval, Ryanair can not legally operate Buzz services under the Ryanair umbrella.
Ryanair announced in January it would pay KLM 23.9 million euros (£16.5m) for Buzz.
Earlier this month, the Irish company announced a rescue plan for Buzz which would see 440 jobs lost but 13 routes saved.
Ryanair cancelled all Buzz flights in April to prepare for the relaunch.
OFT response
The OFT said it normally allowed 45 working days to make a ruling on a takeover, which would take it 28 April.
"It is not a hard and fast rule - something may happen before then," an OFT spokesman told BBC News Online.
"But more to the point, Ryanair did not approach us with details.
"Normally, the parties will come to you with detailed statements on what they are planning to do.
"In this case, we approached Ryanair. That may explain why it may be taking longer than expected."
The spokesman said the OFT would be looking at Ryanair's decision to cut jobs and routes among other issues.
Buzz takeover delayed
Ryanair is keen to restart Buzz flights
Ryanair has said jobs are at risk unless it gets "urgent" approval for its takeover of rival low cost operator Buzz.
The deal had been due to be cleared by the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) on Tuesday.
But a decision has been delayed until 28 April, amid continuing competition concerns.
That would leave Ryanair just three days to complete staff training and other preparations before the planned relaunch of Buzz services.
Job threat
Both Ryanair and Buzz's parent company KLM have said they cannot envisage any problems in gaining approval for the deal.
But in a statement Ryanair warned it needed a decision urgently "in order to save the core operation of Buzz and preserve up to 130 jobs at a time of crisis in the aviation industry".
Without OFT approval, Ryanair can not legally operate Buzz services under the Ryanair umbrella.
Ryanair announced in January it would pay KLM 23.9 million euros (£16.5m) for Buzz.
Earlier this month, the Irish company announced a rescue plan for Buzz which would see 440 jobs lost but 13 routes saved.
Ryanair cancelled all Buzz flights in April to prepare for the relaunch.
OFT response
The OFT said it normally allowed 45 working days to make a ruling on a takeover, which would take it 28 April.
"It is not a hard and fast rule - something may happen before then," an OFT spokesman told BBC News Online.
"But more to the point, Ryanair did not approach us with details.
"Normally, the parties will come to you with detailed statements on what they are planning to do.
"In this case, we approached Ryanair. That may explain why it may be taking longer than expected."
The spokesman said the OFT would be looking at Ryanair's decision to cut jobs and routes among other issues.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 789
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dewdrop
regarding the points in your last post:
1 It is the the transfer of an existing business from KLMuk to buzzaway. The reason for this is that Ryanair do not want to buy all of KLMuk, and some of KLMuk's current work is on behalf of KLCuk. The bits being sold are TUPE'd to buzzaway, with Ryanair buying the shares in buzzaway.
2 Alot of illegal actions are going on, and yes it will be challenged.
regarding the points in your last post:
1 It is the the transfer of an existing business from KLMuk to buzzaway. The reason for this is that Ryanair do not want to buy all of KLMuk, and some of KLMuk's current work is on behalf of KLCuk. The bits being sold are TUPE'd to buzzaway, with Ryanair buying the shares in buzzaway.
2 Alot of illegal actions are going on, and yes it will be challenged.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
411A,
The problem ( one of many) is that Michael O'Leary is offering the pilots NEITHER their original Terms and Conditions, NOR the (good) Ryanair pilot package - no comparison with South West I'm afraid.
if the boss expects that the employees (including flight crew) perform a reasonable days work, for reasonable pay, what's the problem?
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: underground
Posts: 227
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's Not Over Yet !!
This report by Katrina Manson
Edited by Susan d'Arcy - Directions
The Sunday Times - Travel
Warning on new Ryanair routes
An airline watchdog is warning travellers against booking tickets on 12 routes advertised on Ryanair’s website.
The routes were formerly operated by Buzz, which Ryanair has been negotiating to buy since January. The deal hinges on approval from the Office of Fair Trading (OFT), which has until April 30 to decide whether or not to refer the takeover to the Competition Commission.
The Air Transport Users Council (AUC) has accused Ryanair of jumping the gun by offering departures from May 1 to Bergerac, Berlin, Brest, Düsseldorf, Frankfurt, Grenoble, Jerez, Limoges, Murcia, Poitiers, Toulouse and Tours.
It says Ryanair “is trying to plan for something that is not yet in its gift to give. The only advice we can give to people is not to book.”
It adds that if the OFT refers the takeover to the Competition Commission for a ruling, the flights could remain grounded for another six months.
Ryanair says it expects the OFT to rule very shortly, and that people holding bookings for May “need not worry”. However, it refused to comment on whether or not it would reimburse customers should approval not be forthcoming by next month.
More than 170,000 customers have already been adversely affected by the cancellation of Buzz routes by Ryanair during this transition period. Some former Buzz customers intend to sue Ryanair for damages for expenses incurred because of the axing of the routes. There have also been complaints about difficulties booking a special offer Ryanair ran for Buzz customers.
Moley.
This report by Katrina Manson
Edited by Susan d'Arcy - Directions
The Sunday Times - Travel
Warning on new Ryanair routes
An airline watchdog is warning travellers against booking tickets on 12 routes advertised on Ryanair’s website.
The routes were formerly operated by Buzz, which Ryanair has been negotiating to buy since January. The deal hinges on approval from the Office of Fair Trading (OFT), which has until April 30 to decide whether or not to refer the takeover to the Competition Commission.
The Air Transport Users Council (AUC) has accused Ryanair of jumping the gun by offering departures from May 1 to Bergerac, Berlin, Brest, Düsseldorf, Frankfurt, Grenoble, Jerez, Limoges, Murcia, Poitiers, Toulouse and Tours.
It says Ryanair “is trying to plan for something that is not yet in its gift to give. The only advice we can give to people is not to book.”
It adds that if the OFT refers the takeover to the Competition Commission for a ruling, the flights could remain grounded for another six months.
Ryanair says it expects the OFT to rule very shortly, and that people holding bookings for May “need not worry”. However, it refused to comment on whether or not it would reimburse customers should approval not be forthcoming by next month.
More than 170,000 customers have already been adversely affected by the cancellation of Buzz routes by Ryanair during this transition period. Some former Buzz customers intend to sue Ryanair for damages for expenses incurred because of the axing of the routes. There have also been complaints about difficulties booking a special offer Ryanair ran for Buzz customers.
Moley.
Yes - I'd noticed that as well.
On the question of naming airports, I had to give a presentation about use of airspace in the South-West. "The RAF Tanker force occasionally practise pairs approaches in VC10s at RAF St Mawgan. Which some of you might know as Newquay International - or for RyanAir, London-Newquay" quoth I. Much sucking of teeth from the audience - until I added "...or perhaps that should be Frankfurt-Newquay?". Which had them chuckling!
Did the ST really allege that RyanAir were offering departures to Frankfurt? Or did they mean that cow pasture nowhere near Frankfurt. Which some call Hahn, others Frankfurt-Hahn - and yet others where-the-hell-is-Hahn?
Again - hope that there is good news for loyal buzz people very soon.
On the question of naming airports, I had to give a presentation about use of airspace in the South-West. "The RAF Tanker force occasionally practise pairs approaches in VC10s at RAF St Mawgan. Which some of you might know as Newquay International - or for RyanAir, London-Newquay" quoth I. Much sucking of teeth from the audience - until I added "...or perhaps that should be Frankfurt-Newquay?". Which had them chuckling!
Did the ST really allege that RyanAir were offering departures to Frankfurt? Or did they mean that cow pasture nowhere near Frankfurt. Which some call Hahn, others Frankfurt-Hahn - and yet others where-the-hell-is-Hahn?
Again - hope that there is good news for loyal buzz people very soon.
aka Capt PPRuNe
Join Date: May 1995
Location: UK
Posts: 4,541
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BEagle, timzsta, do me a favour and stop your incessant whingeing every time I have to remove some of your posts from this thread. The TOPIC is about the employee situation with regards to the Buzz/Ryanair situation. The thread IS NOT about how close Ryanair land to the city centre of Frankfurt.
If you continue to ignore the fact that having a rant about O'Leary or Ryanair just because they don't land within x miles of some city centre or other then I will have no problem in deleting all your hard work in writing those posts. Want to rant about Ryanair and their route structure then take it to the Airlines, Airports & Routes forum. Better still, take up your argument with the trading standards department near you and see if they will make a case for you for misrepresentation.
Your incessant whittering on about how cr@p you think Ryanair is because of which airports they use is cluttering up threads about more important issues. I don't hear many Ryanair pilots complaining about the routes they fly. It is not relevant to this thread or even this forum. Give me a break puhleese!
If you continue to ignore the fact that having a rant about O'Leary or Ryanair just because they don't land within x miles of some city centre or other then I will have no problem in deleting all your hard work in writing those posts. Want to rant about Ryanair and their route structure then take it to the Airlines, Airports & Routes forum. Better still, take up your argument with the trading standards department near you and see if they will make a case for you for misrepresentation.
Your incessant whittering on about how cr@p you think Ryanair is because of which airports they use is cluttering up threads about more important issues. I don't hear many Ryanair pilots complaining about the routes they fly. It is not relevant to this thread or even this forum. Give me a break puhleese!