UK Chief Pilots and the 'Old Boy' network . . .
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UK Chief Pilots and the 'Old Boy' network . . .
A short while ago, whilst in casual conversation with a board member of a UK airline, it became known to me that the Chief Pilots and Ops Directors of the leading UK airlines have regular consultations and meetings.
Fine. There are common operational aspects of airlines (aside from commercial issues) which can benefit from discussion and understanding. My interest is how we, as pilot employees, are affected by this unofficial concord.
For example, are salary levels and recruitment discussed? Would the Ops Director of 'Airline A' reveal to the Ops Director of 'Airline B' that 'Pilot X' has applied for a job?
Is CAA regulation discussed? I understand that the CAA have a proposal to restrict CAP 371 with regard to early starts. Presumably the commercial departments of airlines oppose this on cost grounds. Might our chiefs co-ordinate responses on this and other issues?
I would be interested to hear some comments; I would like to know if these gentleman have more political control over our lives than they have right to.
[ 31 July 2001: Message edited by: Wig Wag ]
Fine. There are common operational aspects of airlines (aside from commercial issues) which can benefit from discussion and understanding. My interest is how we, as pilot employees, are affected by this unofficial concord.
For example, are salary levels and recruitment discussed? Would the Ops Director of 'Airline A' reveal to the Ops Director of 'Airline B' that 'Pilot X' has applied for a job?
Is CAA regulation discussed? I understand that the CAA have a proposal to restrict CAP 371 with regard to early starts. Presumably the commercial departments of airlines oppose this on cost grounds. Might our chiefs co-ordinate responses on this and other issues?
I would be interested to hear some comments; I would like to know if these gentleman have more political control over our lives than they have right to.
[ 31 July 2001: Message edited by: Wig Wag ]
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Wig Wag, this is more than a little interesting. I have never posted on this site before (only registered to address your post) and am a little unfamiliar with its workings. I came to browse it at the suggestion of a professional pilot involved in an action against a UK airline. I represent this man in that action.
Do you have any evidence to prove the existence of this "unofficial concord" of which you speak, or is it merely hearsay? For example, does it meet under the name of an association of airlines or is it a separate, or possibly covert, thing?
I too would like to know if these gentlemen have political control over pilots' employment terms and conditions beyond their normal scope. The questions you have put are right on the button, if I may say so.
Do you have any evidence to prove the existence of this "unofficial concord" of which you speak, or is it merely hearsay? For example, does it meet under the name of an association of airlines or is it a separate, or possibly covert, thing?
I too would like to know if these gentlemen have political control over pilots' employment terms and conditions beyond their normal scope. The questions you have put are right on the button, if I may say so.
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A former FOD of my outfit once admitted to me that he was in contact with all the other Chief Pilots (or equivalents) in the UK and alluded to the fact that he could affect the course of people's lives with just a 'phone call.
Mind you, I'm not aware of anyone ever being blatently stitched up by him.
Who you know is always important though, as is how you behave. I've normally saved my recommendations for good people who were deserving of a chance at their first airline job. But there was this one guy who was such a @sshole as the CFI of a flying club I once belonged to that, having found out that he had passed an interview, I went and un-recommended him. He had three other un-recommendations from colleagues who had worked with him previously, and not suprisingly, his sim check went badly.
What goes around, comes around! It's a very small industry in the UK.
Unfortunately, some people get away with being unpleasant for a whole lifetime.
Mind you, I'm not aware of anyone ever being blatently stitched up by him.
Who you know is always important though, as is how you behave. I've normally saved my recommendations for good people who were deserving of a chance at their first airline job. But there was this one guy who was such a @sshole as the CFI of a flying club I once belonged to that, having found out that he had passed an interview, I went and un-recommended him. He had three other un-recommendations from colleagues who had worked with him previously, and not suprisingly, his sim check went badly.
What goes around, comes around! It's a very small industry in the UK.
Unfortunately, some people get away with being unpleasant for a whole lifetime.
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Well - you are absolutely right. We in management convene secretly, usually in fields at midnight and wearing white balaclavas, to see how we can screw your pay and conditions even further! We have a large oriental contingent who set the agenda. It is our plan that one day you will all fly 1000 hours a year, at night, for about £15000 a year - and be grateful for the privelege!
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Wig Wag - there's worse to come.
I've heard it said that the pilots of all these airlines also communicate at regular intervals. It's rumoured that they even have a club, I think it's called Balpa or something, and they compare salaries and conditions!! Do you think that this could be a plot against management??
I've heard it said that the pilots of all these airlines also communicate at regular intervals. It's rumoured that they even have a club, I think it's called Balpa or something, and they compare salaries and conditions!! Do you think that this could be a plot against management??
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Been of the receiving end of these confabs - but you can never prove it 
The one that did it to me was daft enough to let me know he'd done it!!! The only consolation is these guys arn't bright!
If you can't do it - teach it
If you can't teach it - manage it
If you can't manage it - buy the airline!!
The one that did it to me was daft enough to let me know he'd done it!!! The only consolation is these guys arn't bright!If you can't do it - teach it
If you can't teach it - manage it
If you can't manage it - buy the airline!!
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The problem with conspiracy theory is always that the conspirators will accuse the theorists of paranoia, or worse. And it is a truth taught at all state educational institutions that conspiracy theory is "fatally flawed". Serves the conspirators well though, don't you think?
BTW Wig Wag, have you wagged off for a while or will you answer my question above?
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: Holt CJ ]
BTW Wig Wag, have you wagged off for a while or will you answer my question above?
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: Holt CJ ]
Thread Starter
Holt CJ:
>>Do you have any evidence to prove the existence of this "unofficial concord" of which you speak<<
The said Board Member informed me that, in connection with an employment issue, he/she would be in receipt of a phone call from the MD of a rival company and . . . would be meeting (together with other heads) the Ops Director of a third rival company.
Perfectly innocent. In this world you can talk to whom you want to.
However . . . These handful Ladies and Gentleman have huge influence on how many pilots are employed and where. I speculate that there are informal agreements between them and raised this post to stimulate debate on the issue.
>>Do you have any evidence to prove the existence of this "unofficial concord" of which you speak<<
The said Board Member informed me that, in connection with an employment issue, he/she would be in receipt of a phone call from the MD of a rival company and . . . would be meeting (together with other heads) the Ops Director of a third rival company.
Perfectly innocent. In this world you can talk to whom you want to.
However . . . These handful Ladies and Gentleman have huge influence on how many pilots are employed and where. I speculate that there are informal agreements between them and raised this post to stimulate debate on the issue.
Over the last twenty years in UK jets I have often come across apparent evidence of communication between Chief Pilots and Ops Directors.
I would say that it's not as 'organised' as described above, but 'annecdotal references' can and do get passed between companies. In general I would never trust that I am making a 'confidential application' to anyone.
A few Chief Pilots are infamous for phoning a pilots present employer and asking for an unnoficial reference, the present incumbent at easyJet holding the dubious honour of being the most prolific at this game. However internet applications and use of an agency seems to have reduced the number of complaints that have made it to my ears recently.
A simple rule is to trust no-one, and make your friends in the Air Force, because you are going to need them for the rest of your career!
I would say that it's not as 'organised' as described above, but 'annecdotal references' can and do get passed between companies. In general I would never trust that I am making a 'confidential application' to anyone.
A few Chief Pilots are infamous for phoning a pilots present employer and asking for an unnoficial reference, the present incumbent at easyJet holding the dubious honour of being the most prolific at this game. However internet applications and use of an agency seems to have reduced the number of complaints that have made it to my ears recently.
A simple rule is to trust no-one, and make your friends in the Air Force, because you are going to need them for the rest of your career!
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Thanks for the prompt reply Wig Wag. Of little help, I'm afraid to say. Interesting topic though. Guess I'll go back to sleep and become a "lurker???" (is this right?) again. Bye for now.
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>>A few Chief Pilots are infamous for phoning a pilots present employer and asking for an unnoficial reference<<
A completetly self defeating attitude. It soon gets round that this practice is in hand and pilots are put off applying to the host airline.
Why? Because is you know that, prior to accepting a acontract your present Boss is approaches informally then you will save yourself the trouble in the first place.
Ever wondered why sone airlines have problems getting pilots despite the money?
There is a proper time and place for references.
A completetly self defeating attitude. It soon gets round that this practice is in hand and pilots are put off applying to the host airline.
Why? Because is you know that, prior to accepting a acontract your present Boss is approaches informally then you will save yourself the trouble in the first place.
Ever wondered why sone airlines have problems getting pilots despite the money?
There is a proper time and place for references.
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harpy,
I know your remark was probably just tongue-in-cheek, but I must respond to it. This guy was a genuinely nasty bit of work and everyone I know who has made his acquaintance agrees (although I suspect his mother loves him). The company I work for is absolutely full of good people and "bad apples" stand out a mile. It is simply best to not have such people around in the first place.
This guy squandered any respect his position at the flying club could have earned him with a total lack of man-management skills. He's the sort of person who (as you accuse me of) would have put himself on a fast-track to management by brown-nosing and thereafter gone straight back to his egotistical and arrogant style of management - he's already done it once at the flying school.
My conscience is clear, I did the right thing. It probably won't happen again though as I don't think I know anyone else worthy of un-recommendation. I have recommended many pilots to my company, most of whom have been successful.
For anyone I knew less well or was unsure of their flying skills, I offered help and advice to the individual whilst remaining neutral if questioned by the recruitment department. I would always say that the individual seemed like a nice person and was worthy of an interview, but I could not vouch for his/her flying skills as I had not personally flown with them. This usually gave them a chance to "cut the mustard" if they could.
Being able to live with myself and get a good night's sleep is important to me, and I actually derive some self esteem from the fact that I saved my colleagues from having to put up with this individual.
I know your remark was probably just tongue-in-cheek, but I must respond to it. This guy was a genuinely nasty bit of work and everyone I know who has made his acquaintance agrees (although I suspect his mother loves him). The company I work for is absolutely full of good people and "bad apples" stand out a mile. It is simply best to not have such people around in the first place.
This guy squandered any respect his position at the flying club could have earned him with a total lack of man-management skills. He's the sort of person who (as you accuse me of) would have put himself on a fast-track to management by brown-nosing and thereafter gone straight back to his egotistical and arrogant style of management - he's already done it once at the flying school.
My conscience is clear, I did the right thing. It probably won't happen again though as I don't think I know anyone else worthy of un-recommendation. I have recommended many pilots to my company, most of whom have been successful.
For anyone I knew less well or was unsure of their flying skills, I offered help and advice to the individual whilst remaining neutral if questioned by the recruitment department. I would always say that the individual seemed like a nice person and was worthy of an interview, but I could not vouch for his/her flying skills as I had not personally flown with them. This usually gave them a chance to "cut the mustard" if they could.
Being able to live with myself and get a good night's sleep is important to me, and I actually derive some self esteem from the fact that I saved my colleagues from having to put up with this individual.
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The simple fact is that our business is part of a very small world and people,either in management or not, are likely to be aqquainted with each other. Many threads here prove this.
We all get a bit of info through the old boy network if you think about it for a little longer than knee jerk time.
Conspiacy theories are all very well but are surely a bit paranoic?
I know of one OD who, knowing that some of his more upwardly mobile young pilots were looking to move on, actively helped, by use of his contacts, in their selection of suitable companies for good career progression.
This might pi** a few people off, but there are some people out there who are prepared to help.
I should know as I was one of those who was assisted in this way and have been grateful ever since.
We all get a bit of info through the old boy network if you think about it for a little longer than knee jerk time.
Conspiacy theories are all very well but are surely a bit paranoic?
I know of one OD who, knowing that some of his more upwardly mobile young pilots were looking to move on, actively helped, by use of his contacts, in their selection of suitable companies for good career progression.
This might pi** a few people off, but there are some people out there who are prepared to help.
I should know as I was one of those who was assisted in this way and have been grateful ever since.
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Harpy,your comment was a little sanctimonious me thinks,clearly with 2 or 3 others feeling the same way about the individual,I suspect he would have been a CRM nightmare on the line. 
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I think many CPs will admit to knowing and talking to other companies CPs. I have heard first hand from various CPs that they have asked others for info and references. I don't know if it would extend to salaries and conditions for all its pilots. I do know that some airlines have "agreements" with others not to poach their pilots. I have a friend who applied to BA and BMI and got a job with BMI. Shortly afterwards BA called to offer him a job. He happened to mention in passing that he'd already got an offer with BMI and the BA option was withdrawn. Have heard this sort of thing before. I remember Geoff Hall of Monarch saying that if he knew a pilot was breaking a contract with another airline he wouldn't employ him.
Also, I have been on the receiving end of the "old boys network". Again, proof was the problem. Twice he got me, but ultimately I think I got the better deal, a good job with a good airline, and his word was rubbished as I proved that what he had said was total nonsense.
I knew exactly who the person was and who he had spoken to but nothing in writing. I even had contacts in the company and they looked through the files to find out if there was any reference in writing, but no.
Be wary, aviation is a very small industry.
Even if you don't annoy someone, if they take offence to you, even if its for no particular reason, you could find yourself getting seriously hindered in your search for a job.
Also, I have been on the receiving end of the "old boys network". Again, proof was the problem. Twice he got me, but ultimately I think I got the better deal, a good job with a good airline, and his word was rubbished as I proved that what he had said was total nonsense.
I knew exactly who the person was and who he had spoken to but nothing in writing. I even had contacts in the company and they looked through the files to find out if there was any reference in writing, but no.
Be wary, aviation is a very small industry.
Even if you don't annoy someone, if they take offence to you, even if its for no particular reason, you could find yourself getting seriously hindered in your search for a job.